Westminster Politics

Yes, its best to do this kind of thing when you have most leverage....remember, these people have done nothing wrong, they're heroes.
isnt it best to do these things legally...
you know having a ballott in line with the regulations
giving due notice to the employer (in this case NHS) so they can ensure an adequate level of care is available to patients in the middle of a pandemic
rather than just walking out ... and potentially killing a lot of people who have done nothing wrong (which would go against the heroic description a tad)
 
isnt it best to do these things legally...
you know having a ballott in line with the regulations
giving due notice to the employer (in this case NHS) so they can ensure an adequate level of care is available to patients in the middle of a pandemic
rather than just walking out ... and potentially killing a lot of people who have done nothing wrong (which would go against the heroic description a tad)
But it's ok for the employer to make these decisions themselves without consulting their employees?
 
But it's ok for the employer to make these decisions themselves without consulting their employees?
pretty sure its a government decision and essentially they have stuck to what they always said ... (income thresholds / who is entitled to what etc in the immigration bill)
Not up to employers in anyway what the government imposes
Some are saying because of the work the NHS has done the givernment should change the law - not on the face of it an unreasonable proposal
Some are now saying because they have not changed their proposals the NHS should walk out now in the middle of a pandemic ... on the face of it I think thats unreasonable
 
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isnt it best to do these things legally...
you know having a ballott in line with the regulations
giving due notice to the employer (in this case NHS) so they can ensure an adequate level of care is available to patients in the middle of a pandemic
rather than just walking out ... and potentially killing a lot of people who have done nothing wrong (which would go against the heroic description a tad)

They're doing the work, putting themselves on the line, and then going to get told to pay up or get out.

If a vote needs to be had then fair enough - but now is the time to take action. However, as somebody else has pointed out, these EU nationals are legends, they're not going to do anything to harm patients.

It'll pass through the house, and the majority of the public will stay quiet, and Brexit means brexit
 


Can't help but think this will end up back firing massively. Heckling from Conservative backbenchers against a calm opposition leader focused on the facts of just how terrible the government's coronavirus response has been will only serve in making the opposition look like the grown ups in the debate. Especially since this new format has exposed Boris Johnson and his cabinet for the lying chancers that they are.
 
Can't help but think this will end up back firing massively. Heckling from Conservative backbenchers against a calm opposition leader focused on the facts of just how terrible the government's coronavirus response has been will only serve in making the opposition look like the grown ups in the debate. Especially since this new format has exposed Boris Johnson and his cabinet for the lying chancers that they are.


It literally doesn't matter as no one sadly cares about PMQ's.
 
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It literally doesn't matter as no one sadly cares about PMQ's.


Admittedly I didn't care much for it until the virtual format was introduced. It's so much more productive and watchable without the childish booing and heckling over ministers raising important questions. I'll be sad to see it go back to normal.

On YouGov's polls, it truly baffles me that people would still vote Conservative. They may not be watching PMQ's but the media is certainly not giving them an easy ride on the way they have handled this situation.
 
Admittedly I didn't care much for it until the virtual format was introduced. It's so much more productive and watchable without the childish booing and heckling over ministers raising important questions. I'll be sad to see it go back to normal.
Agree with you here, its far better than the norm and it's going to be pretty awful when it returns back.

On YouGov's polls, it truly baffles me that people would still vote Conservative. They may not be watching PMQ's but the media is certainly not giving them an easy ride on the way they have handled this situation.
Hopefully it's just them still riding high due to the pandemic. In times of crisis people tend to rally around the government(Almost all western governments have had a massive polling boost since the pandemic).

The worry for Starmer is his personal polling numbers are quite high, so people are clearly impressive by him but Labour still poll in the low 30's. It's very possible that the public like Starmer but that doesn't translate into future votes for Labour.
 
Guardian said:
According to Sky’s Tamara Cohen, the Independent Office for Police Conduct will announce shortly that it will not be launching a criminal investigation into Boris Johnson and his relationship with the American businesswoman Jennifer Arcuri when he was mayor.
 
isnt it best to do these things legally...
you know having a ballott in line with the regulations
giving due notice to the employer (in this case NHS) so they can ensure an adequate level of care is available to patients in the middle of a pandemic
rather than just walking out ... and potentially killing a lot of people who have done nothing wrong (which would go against the heroic description a tad)
Maybe they should just write a strongly worded email instead? All workers rights have been won that way, right?
 


Can't help but think this will end up back firing massively. Heckling from Conservative backbenchers against a calm opposition leader focused on the facts of just how terrible the government's coronavirus response has been will only serve in making the opposition look like the grown ups in the debate. Especially since this new format has exposed Boris Johnson and his cabinet for the lying chancers that they are.

Also does not follow government advice of work from home if possible.

Hypocrites only coming back to hide Boris Johnsons inadequacies.
 
BBC news saying no evidence to investigate further but record keeping at the mayor's office has been criticised while Johnson was in office.

Hmmmmmmmm.
I'm just picturing huge stacks of paper being tossed by Boris' team into a bonfire with the independent investigators standing beside it ticking a few boxes in their notebooks and shouting "nothing to see here"
 


This is literally so dumb. I don't know if anyone has done a take down of his points but anyway.

Firstly, his house isn't going to be on the hook. Fine but that's normally the case anyway with regards to limited liability companies. Weird to be crying over it. Sure in theory banks could require guarantee/collateral on a loan and the Govt is instead guaranteeing the loans, but yeah. Noting particularly abnormal about being somewhat insulated from personal loss if your business collapses.

Anyway, onto the Bounce Back loans and why it's a shitty policy.

- Government guarantees the loans, but is not itself the lender.
- So the taxpayer takes on 100% of the risk of the loan meanwhile the lenders (all private companies) take 100% of the reward
- The loans have a 2.5% interest rate, which… given the base rate just dropped by a factor of 7 to 0.1% is probably going to look pretty pricey in 6 months time.
- Why isn't the Government itself backing these loans and charging say 0.5% interest on them? Instead the real winners of this policy are the lenders who make a guaranteed 2.5% return on the loans until the businesses either collapse or the balance is paid off. And that's a policy that is being emotionally praised?
 
This is literally so dumb. I don't know if anyone has done a take down of his points but anyway.

Firstly, his house isn't going to be on the hook. Fine but that's normally the case anyway with regards to limited liability companies. Weird to be crying over it. Sure in theory banks could require guarantee/collateral on a loan and the Govt is instead guaranteeing the loans, but yeah. Noting particularly abnormal about being somewhat insulated from personal loss if your business collapses.

Anyway, onto the Bounce Back loans and why it's a shitty policy.

- Government guarantees the loans, but is not itself the lender.
- So the taxpayer takes on 100% of the risk of the loan meanwhile the lenders (all private companies) take 100% of the reward
- The loans have a 2.5% interest rate, which… given the base rate just dropped by a factor of 7 to 0.1% is probably going to look pretty pricey in 6 months time.
- Why isn't the Government itself backing these loans and charging say 0.5% interest on them? Instead the real winners of this policy are the lenders who make a guaranteed 2.5% return on the loans until the businesses either collapse or the balance is paid off. And that's a policy that is being emotionally praised?

I think that's a touch unfair. The Government doesn't have the ability to lend en masse directly and couldn't spin up such a system in the time needed. The 2.5% isn't amazing, but its repayment free for 12 months and there's no arrangement or other fees so its actually pretty decent in terms of shape and total outlay. I agree though the Government should be doing more with its ability to borrow ultra low, hence why Labour's long term request for a National Investment Bank would be pretty helpful right now. But the bounce back loan is still pretty decent.
 


I think this reflects how poisoned ‘immigrant’ has become as a term. For instance, had it been framed ‘migrant labourers’ I’m certain there’d have been more people answering negatively. Maybe not considerably so, but I think plenty of people see the term immigrant and instantly associate it with a reliance on the welfare system and a reluctance to work, as well as only applying to people from certain parts of the world.
 

The framing of this question is utter shite. It's making it sound like every single immigrant doesn't work and pay taxes like everyone else, or that immigrants are somehow more likely to rely on the welfare state.

It would also be nice to see a proper poll that breaks down how many of the older pollers are descended from immigrants.
 
The framing of this question is utter shite. It's making it sound like every single immigrant doesn't work and pay taxes like everyone else, or that immigrants are somehow more likely to rely on the welfare state.

It would also be nice to see a proper poll that breaks down how many of the older pollers are descended from immigrants.

This, there's a 'more' missing from that statement.

Anyway it looks like BoJo has looked deep down inside and completely independently come up with the idea to drop the fee for NHS and care workers. What a guy
 
The framing of this question is utter shite. It's making it sound like every single immigrant doesn't work and pay taxes like everyone else, or that immigrants are somehow more likely to rely on the welfare state.

It would also be nice to see a proper poll that breaks down how many of the older pollers are descended from immigrants.

The question seems quite poorly worded. It doesn't seem to make clear that this is about an extra surcharge, and not just asking "Should immigrants be required to work and pay NI/taxes in order to use the NHS"
Here's a tweet from the yougov account which links to the same page




Which makes it seems like they've potentially asked about the surcharge(''Comfortable majority of Brits say immigrates should pay the NHS surcharge''). The framing is a bit all over the place tbf.


It would also be nice to see a proper poll that breaks down how many of the older pollers are descended from immigrants.
Why ?

This hypocrisy(People from immigrate families hating new immigrates)never works, sadly. It anything it strengthens anti immigration feelings.
 
Here's a tweet from the yougov account which links to the same page




Which makes it seems like they've potentially asked about the surcharge(''Comfortable majority of Brits say immigrates should pay the NHS surcharge''). The framing is a bit all over the place tbf.



Why ?

This hypocrisy(People from immigrate families hating new immigrates)never works, sadly. It anything it strengthens anti immigration feelings.


Even on the YouGov poll the questions don't directly mention the surcharge, only the titles that they've added for the graphs. Though to be fair with these polls, I have no idea how much extra information the participants are given other than the questions quoted
 
Here's a tweet from the yougov account which links to the same page




Which makes it seems like they've potentially asked about the surcharge(''Comfortable majority of Brits say immigrates should pay the NHS surcharge''). The framing is a bit all over the place tbf.



Why ?

This hypocrisy(People from immigrate families hating new immigrates)never works, sadly. It anything it strengthens anti immigration feelings.

Because it would be interesting to see for exactly the reason you say. You've got me wrong if you think I'm looking for the hypocrisy angle. It would be interesting to see if it's a general consensus amongst all older pollers to see if just basing these pills purely on age is a reflection of our society. Where I come from most immigrant families are welcomed quite quickly to the area, same with where I'm living now. But, fifty miles up the road when I was at Uni, I remember three different families that moved out because they were getting harassed by the locals.

My point is that we're all descended from immigrants. This poll, like others, using the term immigrants with no mention of these "immigrants" employment status, job classifications, mental and physical well-being, age group, just smacks of reinforcing the boogeyman bashing that we seem to get all the time when it comes to the dreaded "immigrant coming over here and taking all the free stuff they can get".
 
Even on the YouGov poll the questions don't directly mention the surcharge, only the titles that they've added for the graphs. Though to be fair with these polls, I have no idea how much extra information the participants are given other than the questions quoted
Same. It would just bit a weird to add it onto the graph if wasn't part of the question.

Because it would be interesting to see for exactly the reason you say. You've got me wrong if you think I'm looking for the hypocrisy angle. It would be interesting to see if it's a general consensus amongst all older pollers to see if just basing these pills purely on age is a reflection of our society. Where I come from most immigrant families are welcomed quite quickly to the area, same with where I'm living now. But, fifty miles up the road when I was at Uni, I remember three different families that moved out because they were getting harassed by the locals.
The link to the yougov site has a breakdown of region, gender, social grade(Although yougov grading is rubbish) and political party. The reason I posted that tweet is 1)It was the first that came on twitter and 2)I'm rubbish with I.T and can't be arsed to copy the results off the site. But fair enough.

Edit - Oh and 3) of course my deep hatred of old people @711

My point is that we're all descended from immigrants. This poll, like others, using the term immigrants with no mention of these "immigrants" employment status, job classifications, mental and physical well-being, age group, just smacks of reinforcing the boogeyman bashing that we seem to get all the time when it comes to the dreaded "immigrant coming over here and taking all the free stuff they can get".
But wouldn't this be considered by the members public answering the question ? You're right that smacks of reinforcing the boogeyman bashing but the very basic nature of the question can at times be a far better reflexion of people views.
 
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Good news that the government has abandoned the surcharge for some workers, but an opportunity to remind people of what the Labour party’s previous idea of ‘opposition’ used to look like. It can never be allowed to return to those days.
 


Good news that the government has abandoned the surcharge for some workers, but an opportunity to remind people of what the Labour party’s previous idea of ‘opposition’ used to look like. It can never be allowed to return to those days.


They absolutely would not have backtracked if Starmer had not raised it yesterday during PMQ.