Westminster Politics

sun_tzu said:
Head of civil service leaving his job and going to take the government to court for constructive dismissal ... Patel and Cummings presumably will be at the centre of the case
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51687287
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Clearly not an isolated issue.
At the heart of this government is a highly autocratic and controlling ethnos.
One drunk on power and a big majority is making them ever more bullying.

Do as you are told or get out and you will be replaced by a brown noser.

This is a dangerous policy and it will not end well.
 
Buster15 said:
Clearly not an isolated issue.
At the heart of this government is a highly autocratic and controlling ethnos.
One drunk on power and a big majority is making them ever more bullying.

Do as you are told or get out and you will be replaced by a brown noser.

This is a dangerous policy and it will not end well.
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Whilst I don't disagree with the brown noser assertion I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often.

In any business loyalty and a synchronicity of ideology is important in the businesses direction. It baffles me that senior civil servants who were key in implementing wholesale tax and spend policies in the early 00's were completely comfortable in reducing increased spending in the '10's. Likewise a home office commited to increasing immigration suddenly has the hostile environment policy. I can't see the most powerful civil servants doing both with the same enthusiasm, belief and efficacy. They aren't robots.

A government looking to totally change a department should change the key people within it I'd say, albeit though a simple and transparent payoff rather than the briefings and gossip that we've seen.
 
Buster15 said:
Clearly not an isolated issue.
At the heart of this government is a highly autocratic and controlling ethnos.
One drunk on power and a big majority is making them ever more bullying.

Do as you are told or get out and you will be replaced by a brown noser.

This is a dangerous policy and it will not end well.
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Equally having worked with the civil service I know some people take an attitude it's their department and they understand it far more than some transient politician who is only going to be there for a couple of years... So it's not impossible that he responded pretty badly to reasonable requests

Though when in doubt I tend to go with the fact that Patel is a prime cnut a bit thick and probably in the wrong most of the time

That said a prep school educated Cambridge and Harvard graduate ex Morgan Stanley banker on a civil service salary and pension of over £175k a year is clearly not going to be portrayed as a hero of the public... He's going to become the remoaner in chief (regardless of his views on brexit which o have no idea about) and Cummings and Patel are gonna shit all over him in the press (though he will probably end up wiping the shit off himself in £50 notes with a nice out of court settlement and accompanying NDA)
 
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finneh said:
Whilst I don't disagree with the brown noser assertion I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often.

In any business loyalty and a synchronicity of ideology is important in the businesses direction. It baffles me that senior civil servants who were key in implementing wholesale tax and spend policies in the early 00's were completely comfortable in reducing increased spending in the '10's. Likewise a home office commited to increasing immigration suddenly has the hostile environment policy. I can't see the most powerful civil servants doing both with the same enthusiasm, belief and efficacy. They aren't robots.

A government looking to totally change a department should change the key people within it I'd say, albeit though a simple and transparent payoff rather than the briefings and gossip that we've seen.
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Nothing wrong with transformation of a business or even government department.

But the key difference has to be that this is done by proper leadership which is achieved by communication and taking the people with you.

Any organisation that tries to bully its way forward can only succeeded in the short term. Ultimately, it is the people who will have to implement such changes and make them work.
 
sun_tzu said:
Equally having worked with the civil service I know some people take an attitude it's their department and they understand it far more than some transient politician who is only going to be there for a couple of years... So it's not impossible that he responded pretty badly to reasonable requests

Though when in doubt I tend to go with the fact that Patel is a prime cnut a bit thick and probably in the wrong most of the time

That said a prep school educated Cambridge and Harvard graduate ex Morgan Stanley banker on a civil service salary and pension of over £175k a year is clearly not going to be portrayed as a hero of the public... He's going to become the remoaner in chief (regardless of his views on brexit which o have no idea about) and Cummings and Patel are gonna shit all over him in the press (though he will probably end up wiping the shit off himself in £50 notes with a nice out of court settlement and accompanying NDA)
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Understood.
But there is a bit of a difference between what you say and his allegations.

You simply cannot run massive departments by dictatorship. But you can by proper leadership and that is the difference.
 
Buster15 said:
Well what more would you expect from that piece of trash.
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I'd expect them to pull his personal life apart... look for things his kids could be prosecuted for... affairs etc.

Perhaps this is the warning shot

Fundamentally I think he looses any attempt at a media war and the best thing for him and his family will be to find a quiet out of court settlement as quickly as he can and signing whatever nda he has to

Patel will feck up continually and eventually shoot herself in the foot... but no matter how incompetent she is I dont think even she will find a way to loose this battle
 
sun_tzu said:
I'd expect them to pull his personal life apart... look for things his kids could be prosecuted for... affairs etc.

Perhaps this is the warning shot

Fundamentally I think he looses any attempt at a media war and the best thing for him and his family will be to find a quiet out of court settlement as quickly as he can and signing whatever nda he has to

Patel will feck up continually and eventually shoot herself in the foot... but no matter how incompetent she is I dont think even she will find a way to loose this battle
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Yes.
Agree with all of that.

I detest the DM. Not just because it is such a Tory loving so called newspaper.
But because of the absolute and total lies it is happy to print.
So negative.
Complete and utter rubbish.
 
DWP accused of offering disabled people 'take it or leave it' benefits

https://www.theguardian.com/society...-disabled-people-take-it-or-leave-it-benefits


Vulnerable and disabled people are being pressured to accept unrecorded telephone “deals” paying thousands of pounds less in benefits than they may be legally entitled to, charities and lawyers have said.

The Department for Work and Pensions has been accused of making “decide right now” offers to people who have appealed against a decision to deny them benefits. In some cases the people say they were told the offer would be withdrawn if they did not accept it within minutes.

It is claimed that by making the lower offers over the phone, the DWP is trying to settle cases that could lead to payments of significantly more each year if they go to a tribunal. Around 70% of such appeals go in favour of the people who bring them.

Several charities and law firms said they were aware of more than 100 phone deal cases between them. They accused the DWP of targeting those deemed to have a strong chance of success at a tribunal over personal independence payments (Pip) and employment and support allowance (ESA). Claimants may be susceptible to accepting a lower offer because of long tribunal waits and having no income in the meantime.

The Law for Life charity reported that it had heard from 57 claimants and 58 welfare rights advisers of cases where disabled people were telephoned and offered awards below what they could expect at appeal. The Law Centres Network, the Public Law Project, the Royal National Institute of Blind People (RNIB) and Scope also reported having clients who had received the same calls. In many of the reported cases there was no official record of the offers.

The DWP said that if someone accepted an offer they could continue to pursue their appeal, and would have any award at a higher rate backdated to ensure they did not miss out. But lawyers and charity workers told the Guardian they were aware of many cases where claimants were not told of their right to continue with their appeal, and others where they were told of their right, but were either too vulnerable to understand or felt so worn down by the process that they simply accepted.

Claimants, some with significant cognitive disabilities, receive unannounced phone calls in which they are given an offer and told they will be called back in an hour or less and asked for a decision. This occurred even in cases where a vulnerable appellant would need support or may be unaware of their legal right to take advice before making a decision. Some were given a number of days, but only when they argued they needed more time to decide.

In many cases offers appeared to have only been put in writing after the claimant agreed to the deal; a breach of typical DWP practice. There were also claims that the DWP called vulnerable claimants directly, rather than their carers or appointees.

One woman, who looks after her husband who has young person’s Alzheimer’s, said the DWP tried to call him despite express instructions to talk to her. In another case, a man with a learning disability who doctors assessed as having a mental age of six was forced to look for work after his family (who took the call on his behalf) accepted a “deal”.


The DWP changed its appeals process last year to allow for additional evidence to be gathered and taken into account so that an appeal can end if a satisfactory conclusion is reached. A spokesperson said: “We keep cases under ongoing review to make sure the claimant gets the right outcome. We know appeals take time to be heard and if a claimant provides more evidence with their appeal, then quite rightly the decision should be looked at again.”

However, claimants who spoke to the Guardian said they felt pressured to make an on-the-spot decision on a lower offer and were not told they could continue with their appeal.

One claimant said of a DWP worker who made an offer over the phone: “She was saying I have to decide right now and if I go to the tribunal I might not get anything at all, so it’s probably best to take this offer.” Another said: “I very definitely was being offered a ‘bribe’.”

The RNIB said that in many cases “claimants have simply wanted to accept the offer and not continue with appeals despite being advised that the award is lower than their statutory entitlement. The reasons cited for this is usually the length of time they have waited and the stress of going through the assessment and dispute process. Some of our clients also reported feeling put under pressure by the DWP to accept the offer to settle.”

A Law Centres Network spokesman said clients were often left with the impression they had no choice, even if the reality was different. “In many cases the claimant’s condition makes such conversations inappropriate: even if DWP tell a vulnerable claimant that they can continue their appeal after they accept the offer, the impression left is of something like a ‘final offer’.”

One man, Andy, who was supported by RNIB, was offered £58.70 less a week over the phone than his statutory entitlement, which would have left him £3,000 worse off a year. While he rejected the offer and won his case at appeal, the RNIB legal rights solicitor Claire Connolly said a growing number of customers were being contacted in a similar way and said: “Our evidence suggests that in most cases the offer has been lower than our customer’s statutory entitlement.”

The Public Law Project said it was working with a number of “distressed” people receiving the offers, and was considering taking legal action.

The Bristol Law Centre, which provides free legal advice to people dealing with social welfare cases, said it had seen several clients who had been contacted directly by the DWP rather than through their caseworkers, as would be considered best practice. One caseworker, Jack Mowll, said: “I think they don’t advise disabled people of their right to seek further advice before agreeing because they know that they would feel under pressure to accept an award – to ‘bank it’ – rather than face another event [the appeal hearing] where, as far as they know, they might be disbelieved again.”

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Aren't the DWP under investigation for the way it treats the disabled?
 
sun_tzu said:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...Sir-Philip-Rutnams-byword-bungled-advice.html

There he goes under the bus... And a lot more of that to come if he does not go quietly
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Yes the biggest mistake a supposedly 'faceless' Senior Civil Servant can make is to become a 'face', especially one on the front pages of the media. Rutnam has rode his luck for a while now, but its just run out, and he forgot or just didn't realise that an 80 seat majority puts backbone into the otherwise cowardly 'political masters'.

Patel may well be a theory 'X' type manager, but she (at least so far) has the support of a PM riding the crest of a wave.

Wiser 'Sir Humphrey types' in the CS are keeping their heads down and hoping Dominic will look somewhere else.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Utter bastards. You really can identify the nature of a society based on how they treat it's less fortunate.

Ffs, wolves understand this better than we do. Fecking wolves.
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Still holds for todays world.

That is why no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin. They condemned millions of first-class people to semi-starvation. Now the Tories are pouring out money in propaganda of all sorts and are hoping by this organised sustained mass suggestion to eradicate from our minds all memory of what we went through. But, I warn you young men and women, do not listen to what they are saying now. Do not listen to the seductions of Lord Woolton. He is a very good salesman. If you are selling shoddy stuff you have to be a good salesman. But I warn you they have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse than they were. - Aneurin Bevan
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Mr Pigeon said:
Utter bastards. You really can identify the nature of a society based on how they treat it's less fortunate.

Ffs, wolves understand this better than we do. Fecking wolves.
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Pretty sure wolves are known for being canabalistic and eating the young / sick / injured

There might be better examples in the animal kingdom
 
Maticmaker said:
Yes the biggest mistake a supposedly 'faceless' Senior Civil Servant can make is to become a 'face', especially one on the front pages of the media. Rutnam has rode his luck for a while now, but its just run out, and he forgot or just didn't realise that an 80 seat majority puts backbone into the otherwise cowardly 'political masters'.

Patel may well be a theory 'X' type manager, but she (at least so far) has the support of a PM riding the crest of a wave.

Wiser 'Sir Humphrey types' in the CS are keeping their heads down and hoping Dominic will look somewhere else.
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I rather think he has an excellent chance of winning his constructive dismissal appeal, if Patel is a bullying boss - she certainly looks the unselfaware type. These kinds of bullying allegations destroy careers nowadays, even very high powered ones. Seen it happen.
 
sun_tzu said:
Pretty sure wolves are known for being canabalistic and eating the young / sick / injured

There might be better examples in the animal kingdom
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Not sure the animal kingdom is really where we should be looking to for inspiration...

Maybe elephants? Unless they're in musth, they seem to tolerate and look after each each other pretty well?
 
nickm said:
I rather think he has an excellent chance of winning his constructive dismissal appeal, if Patel is a bullying boss - she certainly looks the unselfaware type. These kinds of bullying allegations destroy careers nowadays, even very high powered ones. Seen it happen.
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More allegations today about her.
She seems to be a thoroughly nasty piece of work and a nightmare to work with.
 
nickm said:
I rather think he has an excellent chance of winning his constructive dismissal appeal, if Patel is a bullying boss - she certainly looks the unselfaware type. These kinds of bullying allegations destroy careers nowadays, even very high powered ones. Seen it happen.
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You may well be right and he wins the constructive dismissal case, but for a high powered career CS like Putnam that would I suspect be scant reward, and given the other 'briefings' about his former competence it may well not be a 'dead cert'.
Also the former allegation against Patel may be crucial to Putnam's outcome, if it can be established Patel's modus operandi is 'to bully' staff on a regular basis; but if not then the theory 'X' manager approach could be justified given the circumstances the Home Office is in at present, especially with a new immigration system to 'launch' and that Putnam was put under justified pressure by Patel and he simply failed to step up to the mark!

Boris's whole approach, or should we say Dominic's approach to getting what he wants from the CS, especially in matters Brexit, seems to be to take no prisoners . How long such a campaign can last is another question, but if it lasts long enough to get the Government over the line with the EU then the Government will deem it worthwhile, even if a few Senior CS have to get thrown under a bus, in the process!
 
Maticmaker said:
You may well be right and he wins the constructive dismissal case, but for a high powered career CS like Putnam that would I suspect be scant reward, and given the other 'briefings' about his former competence it may well not be a 'dead cert'.
Also the former allegation against Patel may be crucial to Putnam's outcome, if it can be established Patel's modus operandi is 'to bully' staff on a regular basis; but if not then the theory 'X' manager approach could be justified given the circumstances the Home Office is in at present, especially with a new immigration system to 'launch' and that Putnam was put under justified pressure by Patel and he simply failed to step up to the mark!
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Bullying is not the same as pressure or high expectations. Bullying is about fear and intimidation and it stops people doing their jobs properly. If Patel is a bully, I hope it's the end of her. (I hope it's the end of her anyway as she's an idiot).
 
nickm said:
Bullying is not the same as pressure or high expectations. Bullying is about fear and intimidation and it stops people doing their jobs properly. If Patel is a bully, I hope it's the end of her. (I hope it's the end of her anyway as she's an idiot).
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Indeed it is not, but when someone deemed/declared by virtue of their position of being capable of fulfilling a role continues to fail to meet the expectations held of them by others affected by the individuals competence in that role, then any pressure and/or high expectations applied can be perceived by the individual as bullying. Conversely when a manager repeatedly applies pressure and continues to hold or demand high expectations of someone who is clearly unable to fulfil that role, then such pressurising of them does become a 'bullying act'.

This is why appraisal systems that are used and moderated regularly are so important and especially where the pressures of work are so high that the dangers of intimidation, where this can occur, be it managing upward as well as managing downward, is also high. You might well assume that in the Civil Service Appraisals are of paramount importance and are reviewed regularly.

However it would seem that this may not be the situation in this case.
 
Maticmaker said:
Indeed it is not, but when someone deemed/declared by virtue of their position of being capable of fulfilling a role continues to fail to meet the expectations held of them by others affected by the individuals competence in that role, then any pressure and/or high expectations applied can be perceived by the individual as bullying.
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Yeah I get that. Like I said, I've seen this stuff up close. I'm not going to given much credence to the govt leaks over this.

That's why there are tribunals... but appears as if Patel might have form. If so, she's a goner.
 
nickm said:
Bullying is not the same as pressure or high expectations. Bullying is about fear and intimidation and it stops people doing their jobs properly. If Patel is a bully, I hope it's the end of her. (I hope it's the end of her anyway as she's an idiot).
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Very well said.
 
Third allegation made against Patel - from her time in the department for International Development.
 
Pexbo said:
No idea why she’s so smug, her and Javid will be our on their arse in the first reshuffle. The positive discrimination is no longer necessary.
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Looking like this will happen within a couple of weeks of each other.
 
fishfingers15 said:
What's wrong with this?
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Did you watch all of the clip ?

''I believe to this day, that a member of the Royal Family, as the Royal Family was then, was more valid than mine''

Also it's sort of awful that someone should have to sale something they hold so close in order to afford their own funeral.
 
Sweet Square said:
Did you watch all of the clip ?

''I believe to this day, that a member of the Royal Family, as the Royal Family was then, was more valid than mine''

Also it's sort of awful that someone should have to sale something they hold so close in order to afford their own funeral
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Weird but hey.. People are allowed to be weird
 
The brexit we didn't want you to vote for.



Just to clarify, we all have the opportunity to work more hours already. The torys want the opportunity to force us to. Cheers.
 
nokillingmoths said:
Just to clarify, we all have the opportunity to work more hours already. The torys want the opportunity to force us to. Cheers.
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Not always. We had night workers who wanted to work more than 56 hours per week but weren't allowed because of legislative restrictions.
 
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