How do win these people over then because so far you've given me nothing.
So............
Well yeah no shit. But again its pointless winning power if your policies will fail to address climate change.
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Westminster Politics
- Thread starter altodevil
- Start date
So............
New survey reveals 79% of Britons think the nation is on the wrong track
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...-track/ar-BBYcNLG?li=AAnZ9Ug&ocid=mailsignout
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...-track/ar-BBYcNLG?li=AAnZ9Ug&ocid=mailsignout
The biggest thing is that you need to abandon Corbynism to win them over. They fear Corbyn and his political ilk will bring back the days of their youth when the unions held the country to ransom. They dislike Corbynism because they feel it not only unpatriotic but also a movement that wants them to feel ashamed of their heritage.
@MikeUpNorth made a detailed post on the reforms that the Labour Party needs and I’d be amazed if you didn’t read it so don’t pretend that there are no ideas out there.
It should have been put to bed in 2010 or any other year but people like you didn't care then, just as you don't care now about Johnson's anti-Semitism. Hand wave it away and get passionate about how anti Semitic Labour are again.
Well brilliant we've finally got there. Although you really could have said us both a lot time.
Yeah I don't read every post on here, so if you could link it that would be great.
Boring.
What's boring is seeing you predictably not care.
Wanting the party to take a more positive view of the strengths of Britain and to drop policies likes educating kids on the crimes of the British Empire to win over this faction of voters does not equate to racism. You're not shutting down criticism of Corbyn in anyone's mind with that position. It's only a part of the reforms that have been suggested in this thread anyway.
Mikes post
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/next-labour-leader.452249/page-11#post-25049735
Whitewashing our racist history is racist in and of itself and will also continue to encourage racism so no fecking thanks.
Its whitewashed if you never win power regardless. There are lots of ways that Labour could fight racism if it got into power. Without power these morals are largely redundant.
So you're saying win power then implement the policy of teaching about how scummy our history is?
That‘s what someone smart would do.
What is the evidence that such a measure would even do anything to combat racism anyway?
Oh here we go.
What do you mean? I was assuming there’s a proven link, the one came to mind was perhaps Germany, with it being a country that had to face its sins and brutal past. I found this report from the EU that shows Germany actually has a lot more racial harassment incidents than the UK, which has some of the lowest in Europe.
https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra_uploads/fra-2018-being-black-in-the-eu_en.pdf
I do appreciate that structural inequality is different to street level harassment so if there’s anything to add there I’d be interested to hear it.
I don’t think it’s controversial to ask if such a policy actually has any practical use, or if it’s just hard left self-indulgent virtue signalling that’s costing the party votes and hindering any chance of getting into power and actually affecting change for minorities.
Partly because he's outspoken in his political beliefs both in his writing and on social media, to the point of being seen as something of an activist as much as a journalist. Which will always see you attract some criticism from some quarters. Especially when your political POV is percieved to be that of a woke, politically-correct, feminist, millenial socialist.
Even among the left he has provoked ire by being outspokenly pro-Corbyn and pro-Momentum, which further divides people against him. He also made a somewhat pro-Brexit argument at one point, which irritated some on the left.
Beyond that, he himself has said the way he looks is part of issue. Despite being in his mid thirties some people tend to percieve him as an immature, studenty type figure, which when combined with his political POV makes it easy for some to dismiss him as having a smug, callow world view.
He is also gay, which again atttacts its own hate from some people.
I'll try and give you a more detailed answer when I have time but it should be bleeding obvious that teaching that our country isn't actually perfect would square differently with our imperial past and the encouragement of nationalistic attitudes.
Thanks very much, sully. 
I asked because there's been an unpleasant Owen Jones hashtag trending on Twitter today.
I asked because there's been an unpleasant Owen Jones hashtag trending on Twitter today.
Teaching about the British Empire is a double edged sword because it’s also the story of how Britain improbably came to rule the world and shape much of the world we live in today. I tend to think that it’s also left out of the NC for as much as it may engender ideas of exceptionalism in those with nationalistic tendencies.
I would add that I understand the hard left theory of why they think it would reduce racism and exceptionalism but I was curious if there was any real world proof.
Personally I think that it should be taught in schools, although as a whole story rather than what Labour are proposing. Just teaching the ‘injustices’ feels like a different type of social conditioning.
Probably something to do with this?Thanks very much, sully.
I asked because there's been an unpleasant Owen Jones hashtag trending on Twitter today.
The economic conditions will not be met as a direct result of the form of Brexit being proposed by the very same political party. Right now you'll say "well we don't know that for sure" and when it inevitably happens you'll say "well it could've gone either way and it was reasonable at the time". That's the problem.
'The BBC is considering restricting its journalists’ use of Twitter. If the plan is approved, top correspondents will be told to move away from using online platforms to break stories or offer instant analysis.
The proposal follows criticism of online comments made by staff during the election campaign. Political editor Laura Kuenssberg was attacked by some Jeremy Corbyn supporters for repeating, along with other pundits, a false allegation that a Tory minister’s aide had been punched by a Labour activist. North America editor Jon Sopel has meanwhile been accused of tweets that reveal a critical stance on Donald Trump.
Now Fran Unsworth, the director of news and current affairs, is believed to be keen to persuade journalists to end the practice of frequently posting on politics and current affairs.'
(Guardian)
The proposal follows criticism of online comments made by staff during the election campaign. Political editor Laura Kuenssberg was attacked by some Jeremy Corbyn supporters for repeating, along with other pundits, a false allegation that a Tory minister’s aide had been punched by a Labour activist. North America editor Jon Sopel has meanwhile been accused of tweets that reveal a critical stance on Donald Trump.
Now Fran Unsworth, the director of news and current affairs, is believed to be keen to persuade journalists to end the practice of frequently posting on politics and current affairs.'
(Guardian)
It’s an interesting idea IMO because it would hinder emotional and and potentially impartial expressions of the news.
Anything to stop the left from being the useful idiots that aid the destruction of one of the few socialist institutions left in this country anyway.
Anything to stop the left from being the useful idiots that aid the destruction of one of the few socialist institutions left in this country anyway.
Way too late as the damage has already been done, and so its worthless tokenism. Probably just a presumptive act before they get hammered by OfCom.
Whether I'm right or not, I truly believe that some BBC journalists were strategically biased in an attempt to sway public opinion towards pro brexit and win votes for conservatives. And this bias had TopTeam approval. Because of that belief, I now actively avoid BBC News. Millions feel the same way. Trust in the BBC has take a generational hit, perhaps equal to how Liverpool residents felt about The Sun directly after Hillsborough.
Didn't you know? The fight against anti semitism has stopped now Corbyn has lost the election.
Why do you keep bringing this one policy up ? Also your view is to literally white wash British history for votes. You do know the people most annoyed by this particular labour policy will also hate that there black labour mp's. If you willing to drop the teaching of Britain involvement in the slave trade or its history of colonialism in India(One of the many places), for the sake of votes, should labour drop all its black mp's then ?
Putting aside the whole moral and ethical angle(Although we really shouldn't), wouldn't this embracing of white washing, massively piss off the people of colour who vote Labour ?
Completely agree, I mean why talk about the changing class dynamics in 21st century Britain, neoliberalism effects on workers, the transformational changes needed in the British economy to fight climate change, the effects of technology in our politics, the rise of nationalism etc etc. When actually the real answer is
- drum roll -
''Abandon identity politics''.
Come on mate, you don't really believe this shite ? Gotta love the contradiction of abandoning ''identity politics'' but also embracing national identity, if British nationalism is anything, its a form of ''identity politics''(Also ''identity politics'' is just been used here as a place holder for anti racist politics) .
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Isn't there a UK politics thread?
The reaction to Stormzy's comments says everything about this country.
Depressing.
The reaction to Stormzy's comments says everything about this country.
Depressing.
Why do you keep bringing this one policy up ? Also your view is to literally white wash British history for votes. You do know the people most annoyed by this particular labour policy will also hate that there black labour mp's. If you willing to drop the teaching of Britain involvement in the slave trade or its history of colonialism in India(One of the many places), for the sake of votes, should labour drop all its black mp's then ?
Putting aside the whole moral and ethical angle(Although we really shouldn't), wouldn't this embracing of white washing, massively piss off the people of colour who vote Labour ?
Completely agree, I mean why talk about the changing class dynamics in 21st century Britain, neoliberalism effects on workers, the transformational changes needed in the British economy to fight climate change, the effects of technology in our politics, the rise of nationalism etc etc. When actually the real answer is
- drum roll -
''Abandon identity politics''.
Come on mate, you don't really believe this shite ?
p.s. Gotta love the contradiction of abandoning ''identity politics'' but also embracing national identity, if British nationalism is anything, its a form of ''identity politics''(Also ''identity politics'' is just been used here as a place holder for anti racist politics) .
We are talking about how to win back those working class votes and that one policy is indicative of the type of identity politics that is central to Labour currently which, in part, turns them off the movement. You can add in stuff like Corbyn's stance on The Falklands, those types of things. I think your idea that if you remove that policy then you might as well remove black MPs is so nonsensical its not worth addressing in detail, not least because they've switched to a party that deliberaty put minority candidates front of house in the recent election race.
I don't think it would put the BAME community off voting Labour at all if that policy didn't exist. They will tend to Labour because it is the party that best looks after its interests. I would have thought that those communities would want to see an electable Labour party that can actually affect positive change. Its funny that you mention morals because Corbyn's Labour dropped their Kashmir stance like a stone at the signs of the first grumblings about it from the Indian community, a community with far less electoral weight that the white working class by the way, so it looks like your identity politics and morals are up for trade when it suits.
I guess it would have clearer to say 'drop left wing identity politics'. I must say that given your faction of the Labour party has just led it to one of the most crushing defeats in history and nearly destroyed the party completely, your dismissive tone on any reforms seems pretty incredible. Sadly its indicative of the smug, sanctimonious and arrogant streak that runs through the hard left character and one aspect that makes it unelectable in this country.
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Hasn't he had his words taken out of context? It looks like he is saying the UK is racist
The UK is racist.
I’m not sure how it is news. Is there anybody who doesn’t think there’s issues of racism within society?
Oh right so you do believe this shite.
''Blue Labour you saw me standing alone, Without a dream in my heart, Without a love of my own. Blue Labour, You knew just what I was there for........''. Just to get it out of the way, most of the people we are talking aren't working class but old pensioners who own property.
Now can you please tell me 1)What identity politics is for you, is it simply things you don't like(Which at the moment seems to be the case) ? 2)Why is teaching British history a form of ''identity politics'' ?
We are talking about a policy to teach millions of school children about British history, with your view we've effectively ruled people of colour from the history books, teaching the history of the first indian mp(Dadabhai Naoroji) or first black mp(Bernie Grant)never materialises. If the labour party is simply going to dismiss such history(Due to racist pressure)then why have any black mp or candidates.
Also google Stewart Hall.
You are literally telling BAME labour members and MP's(who have worked incredibly hard to get this policy through), whats in their best interest. Have you got anything to back this up with ? I suggest you look at New Labour history on racism to see that simply having a electable labour party doesn't automatically mean anti racist politics.
Yeah and this was a bad decision. Just other reason why we need a democratic members lead labour party.
We've already been here before.
Typical left wing identity politics. Anyway someone dress Keir Starmer up as a giant poppy and make him feck the union jack, so labour can win the North.
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Oh right so you do believe this shite.
''Blue Labour you saw me standing alone, Without a dream in my heart, Without a love of my own. Blue Labour, You knew just what I was there for........''. Just to get it out of the way, most of the people we are talking aren't working class but old pensioners who own property.
Now can you please tell me 1)What identity politics is for you, is it simply things you don't like(Which at the moment seems to be the case) ? 2)Why is teaching British history a form of ''identity politics'' ?
We are talking about a policy to teach millions of school children about British history, with your view we've effectively ruled people of colour from the history books, teaching the history of the first indian mp(Dadabhai Naoroji) or first black mp(Bernie Grant)never materialises. If the labour party is simply going to dismiss such history(Due to racist pressure)then why have any black mp or candidates.
Also google Stewart Hall.
You are literally telling BAME labour members and MP's(who have worked incredibly hard to get this policy through), whats in their best interest. Have you got anything to back this up with ? I suggest you look at New Labour history on racism to see that simply having a electable labour party doesn't automatically mean anti racist politics.
Yeah and this was a bad decision. Just other reason why we need a democratic members lead labour party.
We've already been here before.
Typical left wing identity politics. Anyway someone dress Keir Starmer up as a giant poppy and make him feck the union jack, so labour can win the North.
Who says that I don't like them?
The only thing that I vehemently disagreed on was Corbyn's stance on The Falklands given that Argentina have zero legitimate claim to it as far as I can see and there's a British population living there that completely loathe Argentina. The only responsibility the country should have is to that population and what they want.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum
Before you start accusing me of wanting to fire up the Empire again - I think we should give the Chagos Islands back as it seems we are only holding onto it to curry favour with the Americans. Personally I would prefer us to distance ourselves from America as much as possible. I think we should give back all territories where possible.
I think the British Empire should be taught in schools but I think it should be taught broadly rather than just the 'injustices'. That said, I wouldn't care a jot if just the injustices were taught. It makes no odds to me. I don't have kids but if I did I'd want them to be intellectually curious and know about the history of Britain, good and bad. The slave trade is taught in British schools as part of the curriculum, as far as I'm aware anyway.
What we are talking about is winning back those working class communities in order to get a Labour government in power. I said that I didn't think that the BAME communities would desert the Labour party in the absence of such a policy. I didn't say that I know what's best for them on a personal level but what I do know is that having an unelectable Labour party is the absolute worst thing for all disadvantaged communities.
I'm sure that you know what identity politics means in this context and are just being obtuse. It's what right wing gas bags like Paul Joseph Watson refer to as cultural Marxism. Among the white working classes they feel that Labour want to impose a particular cultural agenda on them and it turns many of them off the movement.
Personally I think the most effective way to combat racism would be to get into power and improve the social security for the poorest communities so they don't feel insecure about their place in the world and that they are losing out to immigrants. This cannot be achieved without power. I do agree that the conversation around immigration needs to become honest i.e. that it's necessary to sustain our economy and increasing public spending. New Labour did fail on that count admittedly.
Your quip about Starmer is weak and I don't think such hyperbole adds anything other than distortion. I don't favour the party becoming overtly nationalist at all, I think it needs to be more positive about Britain though because I do not believe that smug and sanctimonious wins elections.
I'm an unashamed Blairite politically. I think politics is about winning power and compromises have to be made to win elections, some of them cynical. You have to appeal to a broad base of voters so positions driven by morals are a losing game.
Your platform just nearly destroyed the party completely but you don't think there's an issue with it. It's bizarre frankly and no number of terrible jokes about Starmer shagging a poppy is going to change that.
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No I don't. Please explain what you mean by identity politics.
Also the white working class doesn't have one single view and is completely different in parts of the country(Again for the most part we are talking about retired pensioners and not working class people).
Er.
Cheers this has a brilliant use of time.
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The white working class in this country are pretty right wing socially. The current Labour Party is very left wing socially. That is the core of the identity politics of the party with a sprinkling of moralising over subjects like Israel, Kashmir and so on. This is a conflict that I don’t think that the hard left is incapable of settling and one that contributed to the historic defeat that Labour suffered in my opinion.
The core of the party is social democracy.
Anyway Labour won the under 50 vote , which will be mostly working class people.
Labour has a huge issue with over the 50's, who are mostly retired property owners
And your solution to this problem with older voters is for Labour to agree with ''identity politics'' framing used by far right and ditch anti racist politics ?
Again I would just like to bring back this point
Australia is on fire and we are talking about ''identity politics''.
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We're talking about winning power in the UK.
Do you have the data that says that the under 50 Labour vote were working class, as I couldn't find that particular breakdown myself?
Focusing less on identity politics is only one aspect of the reforms that the party needs. Anti-racism politics can only be of any use when a party is in power.
You seem to imply that you think it's an acceptable to sit out Tory rule for another 25 years until the evil property owning gammon dies out and hope that there isn't the usual conservative drift as voters age. This isn't acceptable in my opinion. The YouGov data shows that the age when people are likely to switch to a conservative vote is coming down too, its now at 39.
This is probably the best data available until the BES results are published in the new year - https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election
The big deal to me is the swing, 35-54 Lab-Tory swing from 2017 was approaching 10% from C2DEs, and even for under 34s it's about 4% which is still big.
Also consider these charts when talking about the age distinction in modern politics
It's always been there, but it only became this extreme in the last two elections. And as shown earlier this month, it's a lot less durable as an electoral coalition.
We've been over this before
Again I can only recommend you go back and look at the New Labour years - Anti immigration speeches on the white cliffs of dover, British Jobs for British People, opening of immigration detention centres, prevent, Blunkett accusing asylum seekers’ of swamping British schools, The BNP winning two seats in the european elections, etc etc.
Britain was a racist shit hole long before 2016.
The great myth of the british working class
https://www.huckmag.com/perspective.../the-great-myth-of-the-british-working-class/
Jeremy Corbyn And The Working Class
https://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2017/07/jeremy-corbyn-and-working-class.html
plus how we measure class in Britain is pretty awful - https://www.patreon.com/posts/your-incorrect-12895193
Also good article on the working class conservatism
I've literally said labour failure with over 65 is a massive problem and that I'm not sure what to do about it(Other than blade runner cities). But the usual conservative swing isn't happening(Turn out in the last election was shite)for the reasons I always bang on about. Plus we haven't got another 25 years to wait because well everything is on fire but I don't think being
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