We've had so much time on the training pitch this week though.
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
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It wouldnt surprise at all if what you say is true.
Our defending from set pieces, and actually our attacking from them too, bit woeful.
I’m joking mate, it’s something that you often hear from top reds on this board though.
The passing out from the back against not just pressing teams, but most teams...where to begin?
How many times do you look at the bigger picture, see our defence in a line, then like one midfielder amongst 4 or 5 opposition players? Then you get numpties saying these midfielders are solely to blame for their inability to pass forward. No, that's because they have to perform like Maradonna for a second just to be able to find a pass. And if they don't you end up with...well Fred, basically.
If you want to pass out, you give every man 2 or 3 options within 5 or ten yards until you beat the press. They shouldn't be having to pass 25 or 30 yards when surrounded by opposition players. But we're well coached and "patterns of play" is a load of bollocks...
How many times do you look at the bigger picture, see our defence in a line, then like one midfielder amongst 4 or 5 opposition players? Then you get numpties saying these midfielders are solely to blame for their inability to pass forward. No, that's because they have to perform like Maradonna for a second just to be able to find a pass. And if they don't you end up with...well Fred, basically.
If you want to pass out, you give every man 2 or 3 options within 5 or ten yards until you beat the press. They shouldn't be having to pass 25 or 30 yards when surrounded by opposition players. But we're well coached and "patterns of play" is a load of bollocks...
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Generally we know that we are shite at bringing it out under pressure so we just hoof it but for some reason today the plan was that we will try to still play it out . That Shaw mistake was just so so bad against a team that is attacking you from all sides .
It’s actually laughable. Can’t believe we can’t do stuff the likes of Burnley, West Brom, West Ham and SU can do so well. It really can’t be that difficult to practice this kind of basic stuff a bit.
To be honest, I don't think that's entirely true. There are a lot of articles and podcasts, where people attest, that Manchester United this season got better in pressing themselves. And that in turn, this also will help to beat the press. Another factor: actually, we are very very good against teams that have a go at us usually (Sociedad, Leipzig, City on a few occasions). So my conclusion is, that Liverpool didn't "just press us" but that they found ways to shut down Cavani, Bruno, Pogba and Shaw and bring out the worst out of the rest of the team. We should find out what it is so we can counter that next time.
I learned it isn't very well manored to answer questions with counter-questions but I think, this damages your arguments more than mine.
I haven't said that something is down to luck or anything, nor am I the one to imply, that we are badly coached in this aspect. I asked you, if you agree that we struggled today due to the press. I am sure you do - so who do you think, should be responsible to make sure, that we are better prepared for game situations like this next time/match/season? Surely the manager, right?
You shouldn't be too defensive towards your manager that you become to biased to see what happens on the pitch. Today we had a problem. If you think, it was just down to bad luck and off-days from particular players, I think you aren't willing to see the full picture.
We lost because our best central defender was sitting in the stadium.
People crying about losing to Liverpool when we are miles above them in the table
They had 2 kids at the back.
Personally feel today was largely individual errors, though we do struggle defending set pieces.
1st goal, partially cleared corner, a bit of geggen-ping-pong in the box with a shot turned pass and flicked on - scrappy.
2nd goal, Pogba concedes a free kick in a way which seemed he just wanted to stop play to get Bruno on his feet and then guilty of losing his man for the cross, which seems to be a common occurance.
3rd goal, Fred brain fart into a Shaw slaloming run into 3 of their players resulting in a shot which Deano decided he couldn't be bothered holding on to. 3 errors in about 10 seconds.
4th goal, breakaway counter when pushing forward. It happens.
Struggle to recall them creating anything outside of our errors, no cutting through us at ease, just their pressure proved and resulted in numerous mistakes. We had the first 15 minutes and the last 30, they had the 45 in between. We can't be second in the league, in a cup final and be awfully coached. Room for improvements are there to be seen but feel we've come a long way this season.
1st goal, partially cleared corner, a bit of geggen-ping-pong in the box with a shot turned pass and flicked on - scrappy.
2nd goal, Pogba concedes a free kick in a way which seemed he just wanted to stop play to get Bruno on his feet and then guilty of losing his man for the cross, which seems to be a common occurance.
3rd goal, Fred brain fart into a Shaw slaloming run into 3 of their players resulting in a shot which Deano decided he couldn't be bothered holding on to. 3 errors in about 10 seconds.
4th goal, breakaway counter when pushing forward. It happens.
Struggle to recall them creating anything outside of our errors, no cutting through us at ease, just their pressure proved and resulted in numerous mistakes. We had the first 15 minutes and the last 30, they had the 45 in between. We can't be second in the league, in a cup final and be awfully coached. Room for improvements are there to be seen but feel we've come a long way this season.
That's not entirely the same thing. We just sit back then and play a rather long and distinct pass up to our forwards. We don't win against City because we lpay out from the back or beat their press, it's because we sit back and play really direct.
Also, if you have the articles I'm interested in seeing them.
Yeah. Third season running we've looked half arsed at the back end of the season yet you sensible folk expect us to challenge for titles under this coaching staff. Actually laughable.
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That doesn’t make sense.
We are so poor at passing the ball as a team. We have players capable of making great passes but as a team we are dreadful at it. Better than we were under Mourinho but its still awful to watch at times.
Whatever about well mannered. You are trying to create arguments that I didn't set out to have. The original post said we aren't coached to beat the press. I laughed my head off and asked how we have beaten it so many times over and over since ole joined. It is absolutely ridiculous to think that we aren't coached to beat the press. Whatever straw man argument you are trying to make in your reply I obviously missed, apologies. I just wanted to laugh at that one notion
We conceded 11 from set pieces last season, we've had 14 against us this time around. We've hovered around 10 per season since the great man retired.
It's something we definitely need to improve on, but several of them can be traced back to someone doing something completely idiotic while defending a set piece. I think just by replacing a couple of the biggest brainfarters in the team, we'll see a marked improvement.
It was a disappointing loss against Liverpool, but the second place and beating City on the way are achievements to be proud of. He has proven to be tactically astute. Hopefully, he can inspire the team to a strong finish to the season.
You need to go back and watch those games again. City have barely committed to the press against us this season and Liverpool were terrible in the cup and gifted us a goal too. Their press wasn't as good as it was today.
The only way we beat the press is going long in behind, some teams have since cottoned on to this. Other teams are better coached to play their way through the press. We're just not and it's painfully obvious from the position of our team and movement from forwards when our defenders have the ball.
We lost against Liverpool at home. That matters. That matters a lot.
As good as Ole has been, I cannot see him getting past the likes of Pep or Klopp to PL title.
Still 2nd place and potential Europa is nothing to sneeze at, all things considering.
Still 2nd place and potential Europa is nothing to sneeze at, all things considering.
You said we shouldn't draw any conclusions to two home losses back to back, bringing up our total to six, when many fans believe we'll be challenging for a title next season. We also fell off performance wise at the end of last season and the season before.
Ok, I understand. To be honest, in my book, beating the press means finding a way to counter that specific tactic, but it sounds like for you it means more like "using a specific tactic to counter the press". I guess that is a definition task but I thought, there were a few occasions today where playing it direct would have resulted in good opportunities but Liverpool made a good job to isolate the few players who a) are able to execute such passed and b) are brave enough. Out of interest, what kind of tactic do you have in mind? Some sort of triangle tiki-taka-like (of course not necessarily in Barcelona quality) passing/possession game?
Puh, I don't think I remember the exact podcasts but Tifo and Atlantis football stated it in some of their youtube-videos. I am pretty sure, I found some thoughts about it here in this series https://kwestthoughts.substack.com/p/the-different-tactical-eras-of-ole-a85 or at least in one article on this website. For the record, I am not a huge fan of the author because I think he, as a ManUtd content creator, is a tad too biased for my liking but in the context of other sources it gives some perspective.
I wouldn't be so quick to keep Tuchel off that list too. They've accumulated the second most points since Tuchel has come in, haven't they? I also wouldn't be surprised to see them get a striker and improve further next season too.
All well and good but their tactic is literally to force errors. This whole debate is why we are still unable to prevent this without hitting long balls for our sprinters up front to chase.
The elephant in the room is we're on track for a very mediocre points tally of around 74, a modest improvement on last year and it's a tally that can only ever get you top 4 and is never going to get you anywhere near a league title. We're also overperforming out Xpts by the largest margin of any team in the league, and anyone who watches our games objectively won't be surprised by that given the amount of poor performances we put in and scrape by. And for all the excitement over the cup final we're in, we're only there because we couldn't get through the CL group stage which is frankly embarassing for a top club.
Now, on the bright side we've met the bare minimum targets for the season of improving on last season and staying in the top 4.
However I can't believe for a second that anyone at the start of the season would have been excited by the prospect of a season where we get ~74 points and get dumped out of the CL group stage. And to add, that mediocre points haul is very flattering relative to the actual performance levels.. But somehow the fans have been convinced it's an incredible year where we're on the cusp of greatness.
Hopefully the signings bring about the improvement we need, because I don't think the improvements are coming from the training ground. After 2 and a half years we still don't press as a team, can't pass out from the back and don't defend well either.
Now, on the bright side we've met the bare minimum targets for the season of improving on last season and staying in the top 4.
However I can't believe for a second that anyone at the start of the season would have been excited by the prospect of a season where we get ~74 points and get dumped out of the CL group stage. And to add, that mediocre points haul is very flattering relative to the actual performance levels.. But somehow the fans have been convinced it's an incredible year where we're on the cusp of greatness.
Hopefully the signings bring about the improvement we need, because I don't think the improvements are coming from the training ground. After 2 and a half years we still don't press as a team, can't pass out from the back and don't defend well either.
They came close to our goal a few times apart from the goals, hit even the post. xG wise they had 2.94 (we had 1.71) https://understat.com/match/14770
So even though I agree, it isn't like we were battered by them, I don't think what I saw would be represented by saying they weren't awesome but we were trash. Liverpool was sharp in the decisive moments and they put sand in all our motors. It isn't a coincidence, that neither Bruno, Pogba or Shaw looked anything like the average of recent weeks, that Fred and McTominay struggled a lot. Klopp was up for the match and prepared them well.
I agree with your post, I think, what we are seeing is a fanbase who a) is so intent to see great things starting and b) invested so much in defending the manager. This certainly will create some sort of bias (just as it does for the adamant Ole-doubters who are biased just as much). Interesting group dynamics I think...
Nevertheless, the manager could also benefit from assembling a group that grows and evolves on their own by setting the right environment. I also favor a more proactive approach but both ways can work and these days I even tend to say that I think, most of our players would be able to evolve even without an active helping hand.
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Get where you're going but it's a bit of a vicious circle. If the individuals didn't make the errors and put pressure on themselves then maybe the tactics would work, or maybe if the tactics were better the individuals wouldn't be under the pressure to force the error. I'm normally a big fan of Freds work rate and what he offers but he was pants today, as soon as Paul took his position their press was nowhere near as effective. Only personnel changed, didn't see our approach to playing out change.
Why didn't city just 'commit to the press' and easily beat us
For all your knowledge about argumentation methodology, one could think you are trying to deflect from the match today. Where we obviously struggled against the press (just 2 hours ago) and we played against Liverpool, a team who is known to press. So there was a chance to be prepared for it... Who could we adress with that question? The coaching team maybe? Too far fetched for a few around here.
When would we have prepared for it btw? Yesterday I suppose
Edit: sorry for the cheeky. I just get a great laugh out of the knee jerk in this thread when ole loses a big game every few months. Have to make the most out of it
Weren't playing great at the time. Pep must have decided against it. Then again they did have all the possession and about 20+ shots when we won 2-0. If I remember right their forwards were bad that day, we took our chances against the run of play.
No worries ^^ . I am puzzled by some reactions just as well. Nevertheless. The issue with preparation also more or less deflects from todays problem. And Ole had todays game in mind before yesterday, otherwise we wouldn't have fielded the team against Leicester that we fielded.
We basically have to become what we once hated if we're to progress under Ole...a team that buys their success with a chequebook manager in charge.
Thats is complete sense. As Cruijff says if you give one option it is going to be blocked. If you give two options maybe it can be blocked but if you give three options, then the opposition cannot block the pass. 4 players normally make a diamond. The player with the ball and the other three players. That shape is then moved all over the pitch with different players making the diamond as the ball is passed among them. Right players in the right space at the right time.
According to him that is the diamond and not how the players line up when they kick off.
"We are an awfully coached team"
This is definitely true during matches, as Ole just sits in the stands and watches a monitor/ipad of the match.
Compare that to the likes of Pep and Klopp who are on the touchline barking orders - coaching.
This is definitely true during matches, as Ole just sits in the stands and watches a monitor/ipad of the match.
Compare that to the likes of Pep and Klopp who are on the touchline barking orders - coaching.
Is this a parody?
Oh give over. We're comfortably second. It's become a bit of a myth that we rely on pace, power and moments of brilliance while other top teams rely on patterns of play and a robust system. I'll admit that I'm still not all balls in on Ole, but it's bullshit to pretend we're any different to any top team. We have our moments, we have our foibles. We also have an opportunity in the summer to strengthen those positions which consistently flatter to deceive (CM, RW and CB) and Ole has given us a great pedestal to move forward. We have easily been the second most consistent and devastating team this season (and most entertaining, even with all those bore draws) so there is genuine reason to be optimistic. We've been completely fecked over with 4 games in 8 days, I think the players and managers should be cut some slack.
No it's the early hours of the morning and I'm still fuming with the dire performance against our biggest rivals at Old Trafford - our home.
Zero coaching/instruction from Ole on the sideline was something that was noted throughout the match.
Players have said before whatever the managers shouted during the game, they can't be arsed about it and just nod in agreement.
You coach your team before the matches, the presence in the touch line is just a nuisance.
Which players have said that?