He may be a brilliant coach on the training ground but sure we are not seeing it on the match day. We should be beating the bottom two teams for sure.
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
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He may be a brilliant coach on the training ground but sure we are not seeing it on the match day. We should be beating the bottom two teams for sure.
I am confident that things will get better once Darren Fletcher settles down. I am sure that the guy has learnt ground breaking techniques out of his experience as player that other former United players such as Carrick, Phelan and Ole hasn't seen before.
And who would you have hired? What makes you an expert on assistant coach qualifications?
Well Sir Alex was always on the look out to people from the outside who can bring fresh ideas in. He brought Mclaren (who was a pioneer in using cameras to record training and games from different angles), Carlos, Walter Smith and Rene in. We're talking about a man who had like 40 years experience in football management, a guy who knew the EPL inside out.
But hey bringing a less experienced version of what we've already got in bucket loads sounds fine as well. As said before, I am sure that Fletcher experience under Sir Alex will bring in new ideas that other Sir Alex's accolades (Ole, Carrick, Clegg and Phelan) had never even heard about.
To answer your question I'd go for Aldo Dolcetti, whose considered the tactical guru of Allegri's administration. The guy worked at Fiorentina, Brescia, Honved (Hungary), Messina, MTK Budapest, Spal, Milan, and Juventus. God knows how much we need someone who can inject some solid defensive tactical input into our team. You can blame Allegri's administration on many things but they share Ole's vision on superb man management + on top of that they know how to organize defences well. But Fletcher will be just as fine.
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I'm not going to say we are awfully coached.
We have been better at beating the smaller teams than in previous seasons. However we have too many passengers in midfield and defense that are incapable of breaking the lines, creating one on one or overload situations for our attackers.
The big teams have adapted to our counter attacking threat. Solving this is more than a tactical change, it requires change in personnel too.
We have been better at beating the smaller teams than in previous seasons. However we have too many passengers in midfield and defense that are incapable of breaking the lines, creating one on one or overload situations for our attackers.
The big teams have adapted to our counter attacking threat. Solving this is more than a tactical change, it requires change in personnel too.
Should we not have more than just a counter attacking threat?
I just don't see any variety or ideas from the team and the approach. Its not hard to deal with a static martial and a Rashford that runs down blind alleys. The midfield is a problem I agree with you there.
Good points.
It is a mystery these things seem to happen again and again. It is a coaching issue and as you say they either cant or wont implement a fix for this as they think everything is going splendidly. Obviously some things worked as we were top for a couple of weeks and was helped by City, Chelsea and especially Liverpools form going out the window. Now with City regaining form we are quickly spiralling away from the top and being caught by those underneath. If they cant fix this then we need a change in the coaching staff, if they wont fix this then there is a more serious problem.
And people are also on their threads saying they need moved on. Example martial.
Saying we need to replace ole doesn't mean someone like martials time is up as well.
I don't think anyone needs a more simple explanation than this. But for Bruno's ability to maintain his ridiculous productivity while he and the team aren't playing well, we'd be somewhere around Spurs and Arsenal. I can almost count the times we've actually played well this season on one hand, that's not good enough considering we have arguably the third best squad in our league.
And Spurs would be even worse off without Kane and Son's ridiculous productivity.
Take Bruno out of the picture and look what's left in our squad. It hardly screams goals and creativity however good the coaching. We'd be reliant on Rashford and Martial who are woefully out of form.
How anyone can watch us play and think we are NOT an awfully coached team, I can not understand. I can take giving Ole a chance, I can take giving the players a chance, I can take having the opinion that Ole's signings have been good. I just can't understand how you can watch our football and think the coaching is good. I just can't. It's so many basic things that are missing: defensive set-pieces (time and time again and nothing happens), playing out from the back, positional play from the back four (AWB constantly too close to Lindelof for example), and the non-idea in our attacking play. We're not even doing the basics right!!!
Even when we have a good run of results, how many of those games can you say we dominated the opponent, restricted them and created loads of chances?
Funny thing is I would have backed him to continue even if we missed top four if I felt good about performances.
On average the performances have barely improved from December 2018 till February, 2021. That's too Fecking long.
Yes the chips have fallen our way more often than not but the number of times you see us scratching our heads about how we won a match or saying 'decent result...shit performance' is too many.
I have zero confidence this guy can get us playing any better than what we have seen. We always seem to be 2/3 results away from a crisis.
We have 1 win in 6 epl games. How many times have we seen runs like that...too often imo. What is worse, is that you can't even complain too much because we win a lot of games our performances give us no right of winning.
You can never be a top team playing that way...never. It's not sustainable.
I am not football expert obviously but I am tired of watching this team play and wondering what the feck they were doing during the week. We look absolutely clueless when we are not given space to transition quickly. You can't even say Sheffield or West Brim had it tough. There was no last ditch defending or anything. It was easy and we have too many games like that.
When something is a common theme for 2+ years and 130+ games, chances are the coach simply can't do it and it will never really improve. I have no faith in people at this club, from management to coaches to players.
Funny thing is I would have backed him to continue even if we missed top four if I felt good about performances.
On average the performances have barely improved from December 2018 till February, 2021. That's too Fecking long.
Yes the chips have fallen our way more often than not but the number of times you see us scratching our heads about how we won a match or saying 'decent result...shit performance' is too many.
I have zero confidence this guy can get us playing any better than what we have seen. We always seem to be 2/3 results away from a crisis.
We have 1 win in 6 epl games. How many times have we seen runs like that...too often imo. What is worse, is that you can't even complain too much because we win a lot of games our performances give us no right of winning.
You can never be a top team playing that way...never. It's not sustainable.
I am not football expert obviously but I am tired of watching this team play and wondering what the feck they were doing during the week. We look absolutely clueless when we are not given space to transition quickly. You can't even say Sheffield or West Brim had it tough. There was no last ditch defending or anything. It was easy and we have too many games like that.
When something is a common theme for 2+ years and 130+ games, chances are the coach simply can't do it and it will never really improve. I have no faith in people at this club, from management to coaches to players.
Ok fair enough, appreciate the detailed reply.
The only rebuttal I would make is that we don't know enough about what Fletcher is supposed to bring to the table yet. If things remain the same after a while then I concede the point
Absolutely, and this was coming. The season after Jose won his last title with Chelsea, it all went to shit because he had no idea how to attack teams that sat back. That is what separates the elite from the very good. For all the plaudits Fergie gets for setting up counter attacking play he was even better at taking the game to the opposition (throwing the kitchen sink and all that).
Ole has done a lot of learning on the fly... We will see next season IMO whether he can add this tool to his kit. It won't happen without having midfielders who are able to use the ball to pin teams deep in their half, and defenders who can aid in switching the ball rapidly to find openings when they occur.
We can't pick and choose our arguments here. Individul errors against Sheffield, West Brom and Everton have cost us hugely these past few months. We can't point the finger at Ole or the coaching staff for bad decision making on the pitch. In fact, in some recent games we're dominating the ball, and playing the game where we want for once, without getting the results.
This is stark contrast to earlier in the season when we were scraping through games like Southampton away, where we definitely we're not as dominant as we often are now.
There is some naivety in how we play, and things that clearly need to be hammerd into the team a lot more. Cavani makes that near post run, 9 times out of 10. Against West Brom, if Martial or Rashford make the equivalent back post run, surely we score a couple of tap ins? Or even Fred and McTominay from midfielders? It's simple for me, they make those runs or they don't play.
Our building from the back is too slow, and we are too easy to press if teams are organised in their press. It's a constant thorn in our side, we need to move the ball quicker through midfield.
The way we start games is criminal, and it's surely not even a coaching thing? You have to hammer into that squad to start at it 100%. Teams know they can get at us in those first 5 minutes, so why not be a bit more street smart and play the territorial game in the first 5/10 minutes, play a bit more direct and don't give the smaller teams any encouragement.
I think we're playing better football now than we were before the New Year when we were so patchy against the likes of Wolves, Aston Villa, Southampton, West Ham, but managed to scrape the win. Individual errors have cost us hugely, things that weren't happening earlier in the season that tilted tight games in our favour.
Having said that, a couple of really naive decisions from him this season in my eyes. Persisting with Martial on the left, it was a terrible call against West Brom. Why does he do this? Earlier in the season he was playing the diamond way too much to keep everyone happy, and sacrificing the balance of the team. He waits too long to make subs, and rarely do his in-game decisions change the course of the match.
We're a team that is way too up and down with him at the helm. We go on long streaks, and now its 2 wins in 7. This can't continue. With the talent at the club, you can argue we can do better. But in the same vein, I think until we replace Linelof with a top CB and get a proper CDM, we'll be having the same discussions. Even at that, I don't know if Ole can take us to the title, we just lack that edge under him. Look at City, there is just an inevitability about them right now, they are unstoppable. Can any of us honestly envisage that under Ole.
This is stark contrast to earlier in the season when we were scraping through games like Southampton away, where we definitely we're not as dominant as we often are now.
There is some naivety in how we play, and things that clearly need to be hammerd into the team a lot more. Cavani makes that near post run, 9 times out of 10. Against West Brom, if Martial or Rashford make the equivalent back post run, surely we score a couple of tap ins? Or even Fred and McTominay from midfielders? It's simple for me, they make those runs or they don't play.
Our building from the back is too slow, and we are too easy to press if teams are organised in their press. It's a constant thorn in our side, we need to move the ball quicker through midfield.
The way we start games is criminal, and it's surely not even a coaching thing? You have to hammer into that squad to start at it 100%. Teams know they can get at us in those first 5 minutes, so why not be a bit more street smart and play the territorial game in the first 5/10 minutes, play a bit more direct and don't give the smaller teams any encouragement.
I think we're playing better football now than we were before the New Year when we were so patchy against the likes of Wolves, Aston Villa, Southampton, West Ham, but managed to scrape the win. Individual errors have cost us hugely, things that weren't happening earlier in the season that tilted tight games in our favour.
Having said that, a couple of really naive decisions from him this season in my eyes. Persisting with Martial on the left, it was a terrible call against West Brom. Why does he do this? Earlier in the season he was playing the diamond way too much to keep everyone happy, and sacrificing the balance of the team. He waits too long to make subs, and rarely do his in-game decisions change the course of the match.
We're a team that is way too up and down with him at the helm. We go on long streaks, and now its 2 wins in 7. This can't continue. With the talent at the club, you can argue we can do better. But in the same vein, I think until we replace Linelof with a top CB and get a proper CDM, we'll be having the same discussions. Even at that, I don't know if Ole can take us to the title, we just lack that edge under him. Look at City, there is just an inevitability about them right now, they are unstoppable. Can any of us honestly envisage that under Ole.
Disagree with that, even without Bruno - Cavani, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood and Pogba is more attacking talent than all but two teams in the league. Regardless, I'm not asking for more goals and creativity, we don't have a problem with productivity across our squad even with Martial and Greenwood not putting up significant numbers.
I'm only asking to see the team actually play well for more than one game in every 5, I don't think thats too unreasonable an ask? Particularly with the amount of talent and depth we have in our squad. Being able to win without playing well is an attribute that you'd want to be able to fall back on, not something you want to see more times than not.
I seriously don't know how we play. Defenders taking their passing from the back then pass to Shaw, Shaw will try to find Martial or Rushford. If the pass is not available then it goes back to Maguire who then pass to Lindeloft. Teams will double up on Rushford and render him useless. There is nobody running behind the defence, route 101. Henderson is playing a CB, just one ball over the defence and Salah or Mane get a 1 versus 1 with the goalkeeper. I wonder who make those run at Utd. Football can be so simple and effective unlike what how we play today which is painful to watch.
I mean...you could say the same about Rashford one month ago when Bruno wasn't contributing.
Agree on Pogba but we've not had him in the last few games and it shows. He'll be gone in the Summer anyway. Rashford and Martial are hit and miss, Greenwood is just a kid, we overrate them.
I watch most PL games (not just highlights), other than City I don't see other teams playing consistently good football either. That's why we're currently 2nd. Is everyone's coaching bad?
We definitely aren't coached properly. That is very evident to see in every game. We are constantly losing the ball because the pass is either not reaching the intended target or it is just a blind cross hoping for a player to be their at the right moment based purely on luck. I have a laugh every time we try to play out from the back. I have watched numerous teams from all over the world and every time a team tries to play out from the back, they try to find the midfielder and go from there but we're the only team who always try to move through our wingbacks who are always blocked and have to go back to the defense. We have a double pivot and it worries me that we cannot pick one of them out from the CB when he receives the ball from the keeper. Our front players are so far and so disjointed from out defense and midfield that we find it very hard to pierce the opponents' midfield. Our midfield often finds it hard to string 5-6 passes together and our forwards are so clueless in possession. All in all we're very slow and our coaches are probably not doing their best. We must be the healthiest team out there based on how much run on the pitch.
Quite a lot of people blame midfield for our poor results. Quite weird if you ask me. It's like Liverpool blamed Henderson and Fabinho.
Luck is something you earn. It is not given. You could say ManCIty and Liverpool road their luck last couple of years. You could even say that when Ferguson was manager how many times we won games in last minutes. Luck is something you deserve.
We do rely on Fernandes. Does Liverpool rely on VanDijk? Or did Wenger rely on Henry? Did we rely on Rooney or Ronaldo? You can say that every team rely on their best players. Do Barcelona rely on Messi? Bayern on Lewandowski? Juventus on Ronaldo? PSG on Zlatan when he played. And so on. People seem to somehow use Fernandes as something against Solskjaer wich is just wierd.
Well, I have said that criticism is normal and that there is nobody without it. You don't need to make up things. But you can't give criticism to one manager and some other managers that are doing worse are free from it.
That bold one. So you mean we should win the league this year and was expecting that before the season? Because there is just one place above us.
This nonsense needs to end now. Awfully coached teams don't finish 3rd and then are 2nd place the following season past the half way point.
Are there things that Ole can improve? Of course there are. That's true of most coaches out there. But there's a middle ground from being awful and being great. Ole isn't either and people claiming he is are just bed wetting cretins.
Are there things that Ole can improve? Of course there are. That's true of most coaches out there. But there's a middle ground from being awful and being great. Ole isn't either and people claiming he is are just bed wetting cretins.
Take a bow....
Post of the year for me so far (only Feb mind you!).
I'd change luck in the first sentence to influence (ie. influencing refs with pressure etc), but that's also part of luck as who knows who get's influenced by what managers say and how they take the pressure.
Indeed, we do rely on Fernandes right now. Some players define an era / an ethos at a club - and they were at the forefront of a great team - and those teams relied on them to be at their best to raise everyone else to the next level. All those players you mentioned, raised everyone to the next level and BF is doing that for us.
Now we just need a few more players of his elk to make us to bring us to the top need to be addressed.
It's calibre of player who need to improve around BF
Doesn't that set off alarm bells for you that we're so reliant on one player after Ole being in charge for over 2 years, spent over 300m and inherited a pretty good squad to begin with?
Christ. When Jose was here, we had a shite squad, now it was a pretty good squad.
Any stick will do for the beating eh.
The squad wasn't pretty good compared to the best in the league. It had a sulking Pogba and a load of overpaid dross. Two years on we're still hoping Rashford and Martial deliver on their potential but there comes a point where maybe it's just that they aren't as good as we think.
Other than Lukaku we got next to nothing for the players who have left which tells its own story.
I'd love to see transcripts of everything that Ole/the coaches have said to Rashford, Martial, De Gea and the defence in particular this season. Genuinely because I can't fathom how none of the many glaring issues in each case have been addressed. And indeed they all seem to be getting worse as the season goes on.
Martial's entire game has disappeared. Everything about him this season has been wrong. From his movement to positioning to work rate to decision making and to composure on the ball. Why is he still being given game time if he refuses to even try?
Rashford has quite suddenly turned into a selfish idiot every time he gets the ball. He's been cut a lot of slack, because he's clearly been overworked the last two seasons, and has come up with a few big moments, but they've dried up of late and all that's left is a lobotomised Maradona wannabe. Why isn't he being reigned in?
I understand what you're saying but the faults that these players are showing have been issues under previous managers. Martial is what he is, a talented player who blows hot and cold. Consistency comes with work rate, you work your way back into form. He'l wait for things to happen to get his confidence back. You could argue his best spell in a United shirt come under Ole. The same applies to Rashford, the spell he had from October 2019 to his injury in February he was world class. He hasn't been anywhere near his best since that injury but is still produces good numbers.
My biggest worry with Ole is the early goals. I think it's on him to have them at it for every game. You have to earn the right to win a game before you win it. They thought against Sheffield United and West Brom that it was a case of turning up and it would happen. It didn't. We earned the right to beat Burnley and Fulham in the first half of them games and our quality shone through in the second. Since then (bar Everton) we've started games flat and have been expecting things to happen and I think that's on Ole to sort.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Martial's entire game has disappeared. Everything about him this season has been wrong. From his movement to positioning to work rate to decision making and to composure on the ball. Why is he still being given game time if he refuses to even try?
Rashford has quite suddenly turned into a selfish idiot every time he gets the ball. He's been cut a lot of slack, because he's clearly been overworked the last two seasons, and has come up with a few big moments, but they've dried up of late and all that's left is a lobotomised Maradona wannabe. Why isn't he being reigned in?
I understand what you're saying but the faults that these players are showing have been issues under previous managers. Martial is what he is, a talented player who blows hot and cold. Consistency comes with work rate, you work your way back into form. He'l wait for things to happen to get his confidence back. You could argue his best spell in a United shirt come under Ole. The same applies to Rashford, the spell he had from October 2019 to his injury in February he was world class. He hasn't been anywhere near his best since that injury but is still produces good numbers.
My biggest worry with Ole is the early goals. I think it's on him to have them at it for every game. You have to earn the right to win a game before you win it. They thought against Sheffield United and West Brom that it was a case of turning up and it would happen. It didn't. We earned the right to beat Burnley and Fulham in the first half of them games and our quality shone through in the second. Since then (bar Everton) we've started games flat and have been expecting things to happen and I think that's on Ole to sort.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
I understand what you're saying but the faults that these players are showing have been issues under previous managers. Martial is what he is, a talented player who blows hot and cold. Consistency comes with work rate, you work your way back into form. He'l wait for things to happen to get his confidence back. You could argue his best spell in a United shirt come under Ole. The same applies to Rashford, the spell he had from October 2019 to his injury in February he was world class. He hasn't been anywhere near his best since that injury but is still produces good numbers.
My biggest worry with Ole is the early goals. I think it's on him to have them at it for every game. You have to earn the right to win a game before you win it. They thought against Sheffield United and West Brom that it was a case of turning up and it would happen. It didn't. We earned the right to beat Burnley and Fulham in the first half of them games and our quality shone through in the second. Since then (bar Everton) we've started games flat and have been expecting things to happen and I think that's on Ole to sort.
Our off days are just too bad. We need to raise performance floor somehow.
Watching the supposedly well coached Leipzig and wondering what the fuss is about.
SAF told Rooney and Scholes that if they don't pass to RVP when he makes he is going to drop them. They passed to RVP.
Tell Martial that if he doesn't make a move to whatever space he is supposed to be he is going to get dropped.
Tell Rashford if he doesn't pass when other players are in space or if he continues to run into blind alleys defenders, he is going to get dropped. Tell Lindelof if he pulls out of one more header he is going to get dropped.
Tell DeGea he has to catch everything at least in the 6 yard box. Tell Maguire that he needs to pass more early.
And do it.
Tell Martial that if he doesn't make a move to whatever space he is supposed to be he is going to get dropped.
Tell Rashford if he doesn't pass when other players are in space or if he continues to run into blind alleys defenders, he is going to get dropped. Tell Lindelof if he pulls out of one more header he is going to get dropped.
Tell DeGea he has to catch everything at least in the 6 yard box. Tell Maguire that he needs to pass more early.
And do it.
Julian Nagelsmann; this guy for sure know how to set up his defensive units. Sign him up. Btw, Upamenco is shit. Cant defend for his life. Useless.
Poch havning an ok night though
Poch havning an ok night though
The coach is assembling a defensive unit that will be stable for many seasons. He needs time and resources to complete the job for the next guy. He has the interest of the team as his contral tenet.
Bizarre post considering it was two massive individual feckups that let Liverpool score, neither of which had anything to do with Upamecano.
If you're going to absolve Ole of responsibility when your players make boneheaded mistakes, why would you have a go at Nagelsmann? Especially when his side created more on the night than Liverpool.
They weren’t impressive defensively against us either, but it’s such a higher tempo going forward. They should have got a better score line than 2-0.
The individual player quality is absolutely lower than ours, for example. How many of their front six are starting for us?
Such an ignorant and stupid post. Bet you couldn't wait for the opportunity to have a go at him. Shame it was after a game Leipzig actually looked the more dangerous team with two massive individual errors fecking them over
Well maybe have a look at the payers they field and still manager to play better football than Pool today. Two massive mistakes cost them today plus they waisted about three very very good chances themselves
Scholes was in his last year in 2013 and Rooney was in and out of the side. Not such a big drop off to take them out. I don't think we have the luxury of dropping rashford and maguire, the drop off is just too severe. I think with Rashford the biggest thing is he has to start playing more for the team. He seems to driven by G/A at the minute and is happy to waste 9/10 good positions by running into dead ends if it means he gets a contribution with 1/10. He's not pressing as hard as he did 12/18 months ago and its another reason that makes me think he's playing for himself.
Well, thats your opinion and you missed the point. My point; (and i will try to explain this in as few words as possible) If Ole lost 0-2 to Liverpool in this manner, he would have been slaughtered. And so would Maguire and the rest of the def line. But Nagelsmann, who btw is an exellent manager in the making, will get excused, becouse he is, well just fecking brilliant.
Klopp outplayed him in every way this night. Leipzig was shit and the defensive lineup was naive - and Nagelsmann waited way to long to adjust.
And btw, i dont absolve Ole for any of his foults. He has made a lot of them. It just dont mean that he is a shit manager.
I don't think the bolded is true in the slightest. Leipzig created plenty of chances thanks to their tactical setup whilst not relying on individual brilliance and with even decent finishing would have been worthy of a draw. Defensively they were also very solid despite chasing the game for much of the second half against a very good counterattacking side, yet were let down by two massive and inexplicable individual errors. It's blindingly obvious that Nagelsmann did very little wrong.
Leipzig didn't play like shit. The pundits were all idiots making out the first half to be totally one-sided - 56% of the final third possession is a very far cry from "domination" as was mentioned at the half.
And what adjustment are you even talking about? Leipzig's first subs came at 65 minutes, when they were 2-0 down to two fluke goals having created the best chance from open play at 0-0. The subs were like-for-like as well - Poulsen went up and Nkunku dropped deeper into midfield where Haidara had been. Still the same 3-1-3-3 shape though.