We are an awfully coached team

roonster09 said:
Well data supports that, not sure why you want to exclude last season. If we did anywhere near as good as we did against top teams, we would have finished 2nd very easily. The sample size you used is very small, I used full season data.
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I included 10 games from last season - post covid - and 8 games this season. This is not a small sample. Basing on whole 2019/20 season data is flawed as clearly we're a different team now with Bruno. And I've proved that since that time, we're beating lesser teams on regular basis. Still don't understand point you wanted to make when you showed the table from last season.

roonster09 said:
Just because we won well against weak clubs now doesn't mean we will maintain same standards through out the season, just like how we won't get just 4 points in 12 games vs top 6 clubs.

Anyways I made my point. This is just ending up in circles.
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Yeah, it can happen to us, or any title - contender. My point is we're doing worse against top teams so far rather than weaker teams (compared to last season as a whole), which was your initial argument in first post I responded to. Anyway, I've made many data-supported arguments so might end with that as I believe we'll soon come to conclusion we will not win a league because we're not getting enough points.
 
It seems like our previous recruitment has been affecting the team more than any stand out coaching issue. Don’t get me wrong I was pretty quick to jump to the same conclusion after Spurs and Istanbul. Everyone in the world expects us to win every game as convincingly as possible and when we don’t it’s big news. It’s hard not to get sucked into the hype. We pay the biggest wages in the country we should probably have been winning a lot more since Fergie retired but our recruitment has majorly held us back. It’s pretty unfair on Ole to say he’s failing when he’s been keeping us competitive with no right wing, a right footer standing in a left back, Pogba more of a hinderance than a help, up until Telles only one left footer in the squad, only matic at DM, no real classic number 9, repeatedly failing to get his preferred targets... and he still shows up with a smile and some positivity. That’s the way to do it. Slowly Fix it from the inside. Don’t pull the place apart like Jose did. These things take time but I genuinely feel like we are onto something here now.
 
Grande said:
No it’s not cherrypicking. If you want to find out about improvement, you have to compare after with before. If you look at our results period by period (say five games at a time or ten games at a time), you’ll find that we’ve had continuous, gradual improvement from after the honeymoon and up to now. There was a jump when Bruno came, but the improvement was continuous also before he came. There was a slope after the missed preseason, but after that, results and performances again has found a stable level.
What’s more, results against so called lesser teams have improved much. From a birds eye view, the stability is increasing. Hav we reached the top? Who knows, but I don’t expect so, based on the fct that we have a young team likely to keep improving.
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Its cherrypicking when you decide to cut an old season from a certain point. Its either all last season and this one or just this season. Why not take the last part of last season where we had the bad spell? Why not from July until today instead of january?

Of course you have to compare after with before, the cherrypicking comes when you decide te point of comparison starts exactly when there was a great spell and decide to cut the bad patches.
 
Starting off games unfocused and nervous is a direct result of poor management and it’s inexcusable that it happens so frequently. We can be very hard to contend with when we start marches well as we’ve seen, but we need to see it a lot more.
 
Seriously how dumb and amateurish is he?

Decides to leave on a walking red card until he gets sent off.
 
Leaving Fred on is criminal. It's just fecking ridiculous, when you have 3 centre midfielders on the bench. You can talk about trusting Fred, but the flip side is, with the role he's supposed to play, Fred wasn't exactly protected by his manager here tonight.
 
SAFMUTD said:
Its cherrypicking when you decide to cut an old season from a certain point. Its either all last season and this one or just this season. Why not take the last part of last season where we had the bad spell? Why not from July until today instead of january?

Of course you have to compare after with before, the cherrypicking comes when you decide te point of comparison starts exactly when there was a great spell and decide to cut the bad patches.
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Not something particular happened at that point that you want to investigate the effect of, for instance the Bruno-effect. But you do have a point. On the other hand, I think you are maybe a bit guilty of nit-picking, as the point he was arguing is easily provable in several more statistically sound ways, and you could perhaps do well to try to look at the point and its best arguments rather than seeking out the weakest argument and ignore the point. Take a look at the last season ten games at a time, and you’ll get an upwards trending mean.
 
He is naive at times but we have played best football under him in comparison to lvg and jose. He may not be the man long term but If he is to leave today I would always look at his time fondly.
 
To me sometimes it is mind boggling how a coach at a top club can be so naive? But then I guess a lot of them has been ex players and then just did the coaching badges and just get on with it. When you listen to SAF and his speeches later on you realize that he was great because he got good subordinates. He was good in finding them and changing them if they were not able to deliver. That is what they teach you at management school too. To organize a group of people to get the maximum out of them. This and every business is a result oriented business so if the subordinates are not good enough you need to change them too.
I wonder if the analysts are good enough at United? if they are what are they showing Ole and Carrick and Mckenanna? I saw the analysis against Southampton in the first half and how poor Greenwood was. He was pathetic to say the least. Bruno was busting a gut to get into the box and he was just jogging. This was most of the time.
Either he is not listening to Ole or he is not being told. `I do not believe that Ole does not know how to score goals. He knows all the movements too. He knows the success of near post corners. He scored his most famous goal from a near post corner. So why is United never trying this at all?
I have give up hope that Ed is going to do the best thing and get a top class coach. `I do not want Poch. He is going to be Ole mark 2. Bit of an upgrade may be. We need some like Rose, Naggelsman or even Biesla or Hasenhüttl.It certainly is going to be an interesting ride if they come.
 
I'd say this is Phelan's second consecutive stint as assistant manager where glaring issues on the field go ignored for entire matches. That "what does phelan do" thread from years ago could be resurrected today
 
Leaving Fred out there for so long is inexcusable, but there were a few other baffling decisions out there as well.

Bruno and Rashford both looked out on their feet by the 60th minute, but yet they stayed on. Cavani was slowing down considerably and wasn't holding up play as well by the 60th minute, but yet he stayed on. Martial was Martial, barely jogging.

But nothing happened. I really wish we could have an alternate universe version of tonight where Fred didn't get sent off because I am curious just how long he would have waited before making his first sub. Its just baffling to me.

Whats the point of signing "squad" players if you never fecking use the squad. AWB looks exhausted every match, but yet he plays the majority of every match. Harry and Victor play every minute no matter how well or how poorly they perform. Same with Rashford and Bruno. Now I imagine he is going to run Cavani into the ground, or up until he gets injured. And Telles will be due an injury soon. Brandon Williams isn't a world beater but he can be trusted to do a job. And hell, even TFM could do a decent enough job at right-back, maybe, if given a chance.
 
Sea-Cow said:
Leaving Fred out there for so long is inexcusable, but there were a few other baffling decisions out there as well.

Bruno and Rashford both looked out on their feet by the 60th minute, but yet they stayed on. Cavani was slowing down considerably and wasn't holding up play as well by the 60th minute, but yet he stayed on. Martial was Martial, barely jogging.

But nothing happened. I really wish we could have an alternate universe version of tonight where Fred didn't get sent off because I am curious just how long he would have waited before making his first sub. Its just baffling to me.

Whats the point of signing "squad" players if you never fecking use the squad. AWB looks exhausted every match, but yet he plays the majority of every match. Harry and Victor play every minute no matter how well or how poorly they perform. Same with Rashford and Bruno. Now I imagine he is going to run Cavani into the ground, or up until he gets injured. And Telles will be due an injury soon. Brandon Williams isn't a world beater but he can be trusted to do a job. And hell, even TFM could do a decent enough job at right-back, maybe, if given a chance.
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Yeah managing the fitness of this squad isn't really Ole's forte and it's worrying to say the least
 
Last night showed me that Tuchel has the ability to identify a problem and change the system and personal to put it right while Ole just continues to hope to have luck on his side.

We are an awful coached team with no tactical knowledge
 
stubie said:
Last night showed me that Tuchel has the ability to identify a problem and change the system and personal to put it right while Ole just continues to hope to have luck on his side.

We are an awful coached team with no tactical knowledge
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What was the problem in Paris and how was it rectified at OT?
 
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stubie said:
Last night showed me that Tuchel has the ability to identify a problem and change the system and personal to put it right while Ole just continues to hope to have luck on his side.

We are an awful coached team with no tactical knowledge
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PSG were awful. Completely disorganized. Their entire tactic can be summed up thus: Pass to Neymar or Mbappe and hope for the best.
 
Harry190 said:
PSG were awful. Completely disorganized. Their entire tactic can be summed up thus: Pass to Neymar or Mbappe and hope for the best.
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This. Came away thoroughly unimpressed with their team quality and their play style. Lots of individual reliance. Maybe they never needed a team playstyle to walk their league
 
Shows his level again. He really needs to earn his stripes somewhere else and then maybe come back. We're not running a school here.
 
Ole is completely out of his depth and his knack for pulling results out of the bag right before the plug is pulled is becoming annoying. We desperately need new leadership.
 
How can anyone watch yesterday's game and say we're a poorly coached team?

11 v 11, we were arguably the better team, and had Martial scored off even one of his 2 chances, the game was done then and there. Quite certain Fred would have been substituted in that case and we would have most likely sat back and played on the counter completely. Till the 70th min, I think they were better for just the first 15-20 odd minutes, after which we had more chances and better chances.

We were playing against a better team, with better players and yet, we were arguably the better side. We opened them up quite easily and what cost us was mainly the individual mistakes (and the substitution which could have been avoided had we taken our chances)
 
Honestly, this place. I see that all the dagger wielding ole out brigade are back. Notably absent since Sunday.
I swear if he'd subbed fred for matic and the midfield was overrun he'd be getting hammered for that.
Seems he was also expected to sub out half the team at 60 mins whilst we were completely on top.
 
Harry190 said:
PSG were awful. Completely disorganized. Their entire tactic can be summed up thus: Pass to Neymar or Mbappe and hope for the best.
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How did Tuchel react? Bring 2 subs on and change the shape therefore taking control of the game again.
 
stubie said:
Last night showed me that Tuchel has the ability to identify a problem and change the system and personal to put it right while Ole just continues to hope to have luck on his side.

We are an awful coached team with no tactical knowledge
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Absolute nonsense. If we'd have taken those chances early 2nd half Ole would be getting called a genius for 2 wins over CL finalists. That's how tight football is.

People want to blame it all on Ole but in reality we had PSG on the ropes at 55 min mark. So he must have been coaching them right at that point surely?

Once again wasteful finishing has cost us.
 
The addition of Cavani is showing us that the right players, in the right system make things work.
We played some really good, controlled stuff for long periods last night.
I’m not having some master stroke from PSG last night, one mad minute and some wasteful finishing from Martial cost us, not some Tuchel genius.
 
We only needed a draw last night and that's the most alarming thing. There's little in-between with us. We either suffer a embarrassing defeat or we're involved in high scoring thrillers.
There was alot of naivety on and off the pitch last night.
 
FrankDrebin said:
We only needed a draw last night and that's the most alarming thing. There's little in-between with us. We either suffer a embarrassing defeat or we're involved in high scoring thrillers.
There was alot of naivety on and off the pitch last night.
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What was so embarrassing about losing to PSG?
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
The addition of Cavani is showing us that the right players, in the right system make things work.
We played some really good, controlled stuff for long periods last night.
I’m not having some master stroke from PSG last night, one mad minute and some wasteful finishing from Martial cost us, not some Tuchel genius.
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Spot on. It’s fine margins, if Martial and a Cavani score their chances it’s 3-1 to United. Overall a decent performance from United, the score line flattered PSG.
 
stubie said:
Last night showed me that Tuchel has the ability to identify a problem and change the system and personal to put it right while Ole just continues to hope to have luck on his side.

We are an awful coached team with no tactical knowledge
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Yes genius coaching, I would love to know the drills he does in training to make sure the opposition miss clear cut chances, than score from a twice deflected scuffed shot from a half cleared corner. What a genius, why cant ole do that?
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
The addition of Cavani is showing us that the right players, in the right system make things work.
We played some really good, controlled stuff for long periods last night.
I’m not having some master stroke from PSG last night, one mad minute and some wasteful finishing from Martial cost us, not some Tuchel genius.
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Exactly this. The mere fact we are competing with last years finalists in what could have been a comfortable win if not for that mad minute and wasteful wasteful finishing, shows progress.

I’m taking the positives from last night.
 
RUCK4444 said:
Exactly this. The mere fact we are competing with last years finalists in what could have been a comfortable win if not for that mad minute and wasteful wasteful finishing, shows progress.

I’m taking the positives from last night.
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Its quite weird because alot of these fans say PSG were for the taking, I agree but this was a team that got to the CL final. They have 2 of the best players in world football.

People then say there is no progress 2 years on. Look back 2 years ago vs PSG, both games we got dominated and played very very defensively. Now, we were taking the game to PSG. If that is not a sign of improvement, I dont know what is.
 
Last night Ole kind of showed his limitations as a manager.

Really good managers can have a big influence on every game, they see what is happening and are constantly looking for ways to solve any issues that are currently going on.

I just do not see that with Ole at all, he really does look like he's so indecisive and that's just because he is like a rabbit caught in the headlights type scenario.

Im a huge Ole fan but im not really sure what he offers ... he is just very lucky he has a bunch of good but inconsistent players to fall back on and they have a habit of turning up when it matters, im not even sure how much input Ole has on it through a game.

You have to ask yourself would Ole do as well with inferior players, how many premiership managers would do just as good a job at United with the current squad of players ?

How would Ole do at West Ham, Wolves or Southampton, would he do as good of a job as the current managers are doing there ?
 
stubie said:
Last night showed me that Tuchel has the ability to identify a problem and change the system and personal to put it right while Ole just continues to hope to have luck on his side.

We are an awful coached team with no tactical knowledge
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That just isn't true. We adapted after PSG's early onslaught. We also adapted in the first PSG game this season by going from the 3-5-2 to the 4-4-2 diamond and won the game.

Yesterday wasn't down to tactics. It was down to Ole trusting his players too much by taking that risk with Fred and our forwards' poor finishing, as well as some very poor decisions in the final third where we passed instead of shooting. On the balance of play, I'd say we just about edged it, and the system worked to put our best players in the best possible scenarios to score. That is all you can ask of the manager, the rest is on the 11 men on the pitch.
 
stubie said:
Last night showed me that Tuchel has the ability to identify a problem and change the system and personal to put it right while Ole just continues to hope to have luck on his side.

We are an awful coached team with no tactical knowledge
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Did we lose 8-0? with 0 shots on goal and get dominated the whole game?

We were playing the CL finalists, this is the CL where if you are awfully coached and have no tactical knowledge you get demolished.

We were in the game even till the 90th minute, so I dont get where this no tactics comes into this?

9 points, the same as the manager with great tactics and coaching.
 
FrankDrebin said:
Minor Neymar and Mbappe they aren't anything special.
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Are you joking? PSG are stacked full of great players. They were CL finalists last season beating the likes of RM, Dortmund and RB Leipzig... narrowly losing the final to arguably the best team in the world.

Some perspective is needed in this thread.
 
Greck said:
This. Came away thoroughly unimpressed with their team quality and their play style. Lots of individual reliance. Maybe they never needed a team playstyle to walk their league
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Is that supposed to be us relying on individual brilliance. We didn't even have that last night.
 
rotherham_red said:
That just isn't true. We adapted after PSG's early onslaught. We also adapted in the first PSG game this season by going from the 3-5-2 to the 4-4-2 diamond and won the game.

Yesterday wasn't down to tactics. It was down to Ole trusting his players too much by taking that risk with Fred and our forwards' poor finishing, as well as some very poor decisions in the final third where we passed instead of shooting. On the balance of play, I'd say we just about edged it, and the system worked to put our best players in the best possible scenarios to score. That is all you can ask of the manager, the rest is on the 11 men on the pitch.
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Agree about him trusting his players, eventually you have to stop trusting some of them. Martial was atrocious, no other word for it. The top strikers might go through bad spells, but the best don't let it affect their confidence. To me Martial is a wide player who can get goals, not a striker who can get lots of goals.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Agree about him trusting his players, eventually you have to stop trusting some of them. Martial was atrocious, no other word for it. The top strikers might go through bad spells, but the best don't let it affect their confidence. To me Martial is a wide player who can get goals, not a striker who can get lots of goals.
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I agree to an extent. I am backing Ole to the hilt for success, and have been one of his most ardent supporters on here, but he deserved criticism for the Fred situation. Much like Rafa's red card v Bayern, everyone could see it coming from a mile away. Everyone, that is, except the player and the manager. It's shit and shit happens, but tbh, I don't actually think it cost us too much in terms of our rhythm and overall foothold in the game. We still created chances and we had enough to have at least drawn the game.

I do feel for Martial. He's usually ice cold in those situations, but he's going through a rut. However, on balance, you might well be right.
 
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