We are an awfully coached team

Leftback99 said:
Which teams apart from City should I go back and watch from the weekend to see 'incredible' coaching in action?
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See this is the issue you've chosen City because they've won, Liverpool didn't so presumably they're not well coached suddenly? That's obviously not true.

Swap coached with organised or well drilled if that makes more sense to you. Which teams are organised at the back, on corners, work as a unit to play out, full backs are well used, don't need several touches to know the positions or runs of their opponents.

We were very well coached under LvG, the players worked to the system but it wasn't successful. I'd rather be less well coached and win more games than the opposite but you're not going to the win the title unless you're very well coached.

I'd like to see progress on repeated mistakes before i could begin to claim our coaching staff are doing their jobs well.
 
People are so far into their Ole out stage that they can't even enjoy wins now it seems and still want to moan and whinge. I pity them. We could beat PSG tomorrow night and qualify from a tough CL group and it's still not enough.
 
Nou_Camp99 said:
Let's take it back further till end of January. We've got the most pts per game of all 20 PL clubs.

We started the season awfully because of the schedule which was totally unfair on us (and on City too) and all you moany gits blamed it on Ole.

Since we've caught up fitness wise our results have picked up significantly. So much so that's we're now 5pts off top with a game in hand. Stop moaning and support the manager. He's doing a good job.
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If you don't like discussion I'd suggest you get off a discussion forum.
 
justsomebloke said:
Er, I really don't think that's true. As I remember it, the coverage after RBL was all about how that was a huge triumph. They're just being newspapers, which means they will always build up the drama whenever Ole's job security is low, but they also build up the achievements because Ole is after all Norwegian. The TV commentary is reasonable and balanced, in my view.

Also, if someone commented on how they struggled to play out from the back in the first half (the expert commentators on TV did that, true enough), they were spot on in my view.
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Then we certainly don't share the same opinion. Brede Hangeland is extremely negative in his views and was even negative when United won 4-1 against Basakshir, where Thorstvedt had to argue that you can't really be negative when a team scores 4 goals. Overall, when United manages to win on a negative day, it's all doom and gloom. When Liverpool manages the same, it's a message on how great teams win even on a poor showing. Against Leipzig, the host tried to repeatedly argue that perhaps they weren't so bad in the first half considering they actually were 1-0 up, and perhaps the pundits should argue differently, which of course they did not after the game finished. Alsaker is also a terrible commentator when commentating on United. Reasonable and balanced it is not.
 
Smores said:
If you don't like discussion I'd suggest you get off a discussion forum.
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It's not a discussion with you lot. You're just hating on a guy who is actually doing a pretty good job. We're well in sight of our season's goals already despite the handicap we were given at the start. He finished 3rd in his only full season to date.
And a lot fo you lot want him sacked. Why? What's he actually done to deserve that?

You're all just too proud to admit your mistakes. None of us Ole in lot think he's the best coach in the world or of all time. He's certainly not deserving of the sack though.
 
Smores said:
How are we not inconsistent this season? :lol:

We're 9th in shots on target and 9th in goals scored, in a good few games we've only had 2 or 3 on target where the opponent has setup defensive.

We've also got the most goals from counter attacks in the league.

Stats aren't everything but they certainly don't support your opinion.
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Sounds pretty consistent to me :lol:

Anyway, I agree with Bilbo. Just because we are very good at counter attacking, and we are (which in itself shows coaching), it doesn't mean we are a counter attacking team. We do not sit back and wait to counter most teams. We do it against high quality teams, and it works, but against inferior teams we look to dominate and break them down. And we have got a lot better at this aspect since January, too.

The way we play is very consistent for me, just the results are not. The major difference in our approach from game to game seems to be the intensity we play at, not the approach from a coaching point of view. Sometimes the players have the energy to implement the plan better, sometimes it's a slog, but the plan is usually the same.
 
Nou_Camp99 said:
It's not a discussion with you lot. You're just hating on a guy who is actually doing a pretty good job. We're well in sight of our season's goals already despite the handicap we were given at the start. He finished 3rd in his only full season to date.
And a lot fo you lot want him sacked. Why? What's he actually done to deserve that?

You're all just too proud to admit your mistakes. None of us Ole in lot think he's the best coach in the world or of all time. He's certainly not deserving of the sack though.
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The thread title doesn't help. I think it's fine to have a thread discussing the coaching and peoples perceptions of it, but to state categorically that 'We are an awfully coached team' automatically sets the tone. Similar to a lot of threads.
 
Volumiza said:
The thread title doesn't help. I think it's fine to have a thread discussing the coaching and peoples perceptions of it, but to state categorically that 'We are an awfully coached team' automatically sets the tone. Similar to a lot of threads.
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Don't disagree with that one bit.

Awfully coached teams wouldn't have won the amount of tough games we've won under Ole. Awfully coached teams usually do awfully when they come up against the best managers around. We rarely do.
 
Smores said:
See this is the issue you've chosen City because they've won, Liverpool didn't so presumably they're not well coached suddenly? That's obviously not true.

Swap coached with organised or well drilled if that makes more sense to you. Which teams are organised at the back, on corners, work as a unit to play out, full backs are well used, don't need several touches to know the positions or runs of their opponents.

We were very well coached under LvG, the players worked to the system but it wasn't successful. I'd rather be less well coached and win more games than the opposite but you're not going to the win the title unless you're very well coached.

I'd like to see progress on repeated mistakes before i could begin to claim our coaching staff are doing their jobs well.
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So which teams? I'm genuinely interested to understand what is so great about everyone else?

I excluded City because they have the best players which makes all the difference. Strange that Liverpool don't look as 'well coached' with a few players missing.

I'm pretty sure we conceded one of least amount of chances from open play at the weekend and have done since the Spurs game. That says to me we're quite well organised at the back but I don't closely watch every other team closely for 90 minutes and scrutinise them like you must do?
 
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Leftback99 said:
So which teams? I'm genuinely interested to understand what is so great about everyone else?

I excluded City because they have the best players which makes all the difference. Strange that Liverpool don't look as 'well coached' with a few players missing.

I'm pretty sure we conceded one of least amount of chances from open play at the weekend and have done since the Spurs game. That says to me we're quite well organised at the back but I don't closely watch every other team closely for 90 minutes and scrutinise them like you must do?
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Liverpool routinely get the best out of poor players due to their system. Yes they'll perform worse when they've got injuries, not sure who you think is making the opposing point.

We've largely played two DMs that's why we're more solid recently. I'm all for that it was much needed decision but our defensive difficiencies haven't gone anyway and it's not just personnel.

If you watch any amount of Leeds or Southampton games you know what you'll get, they know where people are going to be and move it quickly. Likewise Palace and Leicester because despite their deficiencies they're well drilled so exceed their actual capability. I'd have said the same of Wolves but I've not watched them as much recently. That's not to stay their organisation would work for us only that it exists and works for them.

It would be much simpler to focus on the one aspect of defending from set pieces though as that's as training ground as it gets. At one point last season i think March we had the most goals conceded from corners, that shouldn't ever be the case for a club like ours. On the flip side we're terrible at scoring goals from corners too so exactly what is it if it isn't poor coaching in those areas? That's been the case across managers too so it's not even just an Ole criticism but he hasn't resolved it so it's as genuine of a complaint now as it was for the others.
 
Smores said:
Liverpool routinely get the best out of poor players due to their system. Yes they'll perform worse when they've got injuries, not sure who you think is making the opposing point.

We've largely played two DMs that's why we're more solid recently. I'm all for that it was much needed decision but our defensive difficiencies haven't gone anyway and it's not just personnel.

If you watch any amount of Leeds or Southampton games you know what you'll get, they know where people are going to be and move it quickly. Likewise Palace and Leicester because despite their deficiencies they're well drilled so exceed their actual capability. I'd have said the same of Wolves but I've not watched them as much recently. That's not to stay their organisation would work for us only that it exists and works for them.

It would be much simpler to focus on the one aspect of defending from set pieces though as that's as training ground as it gets. At one point last season i think March we had the most goals conceded from corners, that shouldn't ever be the case for a club like ours. On the flip side we're terrible at scoring goals from corners too so exactly what is it if it isn't poor coaching in those areas? That's been the case across managers too so it's not even just an Ole criticism but he hasn't resolved it so it's as genuine of a complaint now as it was for the others.
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I've watched Leicester in the last two games, they've been terrible all round. Leeds were good and look well drilled. Southampton created nothing other than a couple of good set pieces which isn't repeated every game. Wolves play the most dull football in the league even though they have some very good players.

As for corners I've posted about them before: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/fin...d-shouldnt-be-celebrated.456471/post-25945104

We're around average, in the mix with coaches who you would describe as incredible. Mainly physical teams with good headers of the ball come out on top, shock.
 
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People confuse good players playing in a decent system to poor players playing in a very good system.
Look at Leeds and Southampton too. Would any of the players from these two clubs get into the united side? No.
But they are coached well and they don't win because of lack of individual quality of the players. SAF can play Anderson and Hargreaves in midfield and dominate any PL side.
A side that is coached well would have dealt with near post corners. Fool me once yes. But we struggle every time someone takes a near post corner and it has got nothing to do with DeGea.
Why can't we ever take a near post corner ever? Every other team including Bayern, Juve, PSG they all take near post corner. We don't.
If Ole can replace the two coaches he has with top quality coaches he is going to win a lot more matches.
 
Ole out vs Ole (“awful coaching not awful“ and variations) in is the battle between two groups of people:

1) those who judge current managers against [collective] Fergie [figure] as a benchmark - Ole can’t stand a chance, OUT;
2) those who judge manager against season expectation metric. Ole delivered reasonable end result in each season despite numerous unfavorable factors, IN

and 3) those who actually watch the matches and have strong emotional response, i.e. swinging.
 
Foxbatt said:
People confuse good players playing in a decent system to poor players playing in a very good system.
Look at Leeds and Southampton too. Would any of the players from these two clubs get into the united side? No.
But they are coached well and they don't win because of lack of individual quality of the players. SAF can play Anderson and Hargreaves in midfield and dominate any PL side.
A side that is coached well would have dealt with near post corners. Fool me once yes. But we struggle every time someone takes a near post corner and it has got nothing to do with DeGea.
Why can't we ever take a near post corner ever? Every other team including Bayern, Juve, PSG they all take near post corner. We don't.
If Ole can replace the two coaches he has with top quality coaches he is going to win a lot more matches.
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More corners. That was the first corner we've conceded from in the league this season.
 
Southampton is the only team that hits near post corners against Man Utd? Wow. Shocking news.
 
I don't understand how we could have consistently done so well against the big teams in the big games under Ole if he's the tactical dunce some people claim. I've got no brain for stats but pretty sure he has an exceptional record against the top six.
 
It’s fairly clear to me that we rely on our individual wealth of talent rather than being a fantastically well drilled and coached team. Three wins in the league and all the Ole die hard fans are happy to forgo this point. Maybe we just have to learn to live with this under Ole.
 
VivaRonaldo85 said:
It’s fairly clear to me that we rely on our individual wealth of talent rather than being a fantastically well drilled and coached team. Three wins in the league and all the Ole die hard fans are happy to forgo this point. Maybe we just have to learn to live with this under Ole.
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What makes it clear to you?
 
Brightonian said:
I don't understand how we could have consistently done so well against the big teams in the big games under Ole if he's the tactical dunce some people claim. I've got no brain for stats but pretty sure he has an exceptional record against the top six.
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Because we play counterattacking football, to be honest we need to give him some credit for that. He normally sets up pretty well against big teams and our fast attacks helps a lot our counters. But we struggle big time against low blocks, there the lack of coaching shows up and is for everyone to see.
 
I've been scouring the internet for days now, searching for this fabled perfect team that some people on here think they're entitled to. Although I rarely post, I've followed the Caf for years. For me, now, it's not worth it. It's full of self-entitled arseholes
 
We aren't a awfully coached that couldn't be further from the truth.

But I don't feel we play front foot football against the bigger teams. When we've won games against the the likes of City, we've played to exploit their mistakes due to them taking the game to us which leaves space in behind for our players to exploit and we have some very good players in the forward roles who can exploit that space. But the bottom line is that we play a reactive brand of football against our rivals and against many other teams IMO.
 
Nou_Camp99 said:
People are so far into their Ole out stage that they can't even enjoy wins now it seems and still want to moan and whinge. I pity them. We could beat PSG tomorrow night and qualify from a tough CL group and it's still not enough.
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Enjoy wins? They don’t want us to win at all because they want to say I told you so about the PE teacher on an Internet forum
 
SAFMUTD said:
Because we play counterattacking football, to be honest we need to give him some credit for that. He normally sets up pretty well against big teams and our fast attacks helps a lot our counters. But we struggle big time against low blocks, there the lack of coaching shows up and is for everyone to see.
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So there is coaching against big teams and a lack of coaching against small teams. How confused are you?
 
Adnan said:
We aren't a awfully coached that couldn't be further from the truth.

But I don't feel we play front foot football against the bigger teams. When we've won games against the the likes of City, we've played to exploit their mistakes due to them taking the game to us which leaves space in behind for our players to exploit and we have some very good players in the forward roles who can exploit that space. But the bottom line is that we play a reactive brand of football against our rivals and against many other teams IMO.
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There is nothing wrong with that approach. Especially when those teams clearly have better players than you. Many managers through out history have won games exactly that way, the important thing is to be exciting and win. Even when we play counter attack we do play it in an exciting fast paced manner
 
Slik said:
There is nothing wrong with that approach. Especially when those teams clearly have better players than you. Many managers through out history have won games exactly that way, the important thing is to be exciting and win. Even when we play counter attack we do play it in an exciting fast paced manner
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There isn't if you like watching a reactive brand of football. But Solskjaer has gone on record nearly two years ago now and said he'd like like to play a high line like Jurgen and wants to press high. So I'm holding him to his words and judging him on his words. But after almost two years in the job and 100s of millions spent he hasn't come close to implementing a high line/ high pressure play style. And what makes it even more worrying is that Kieran McKenna it seems is the one doing the actual coaching with Carrick on work experience and Phelan the agony Uncle of the playing squad.
 
Nou_Camp99 said:
People are so far into their Ole out stage that they can't even enjoy wins now it seems and still want to moan and whinge. I pity them. We could beat PSG tomorrow night and qualify from a tough CL group and it's still not enough.
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I understand your point but is Ole getting through the group a merit in any way ? Hindsight we get through the group but fail to win the competition it erases any prior progression in my opinion.

I'd be in favour of Solskjaer being sacked because I don't think he can take us to a level competitively enough to move the club forward but I recognise its pointless to judge before the season is over unless we have a catastrophic drop of form.
 
Slik said:
There is nothing wrong with that approach. Especially when those teams clearly have better players than you. Many managers through out history have won games exactly that way, the important thing is to be exciting and win. Even when we play counter attack we do play it in an exciting fast paced manner
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That's not entirely true because when the ounas is on us to attack the opposition and have majority possession it's often where we look very disjointed and lethargic. That's why our home record has been relatively poor.

Solskjaer is a plan B manager. He's pragmatic in his approach but there's this idea on these forums he's somehow an attacking coach which isn't true. The team needs to play a better brand of football to have a foundation to build upon. The result of us failing to do so has already manifested and its that the team lacks consistency.

If solskjaer can leverage implementing better ideas to craft our possession play he will be a success here.
 
We have a bunch of brilliant individual players. It's not only Bruno. We have 11 international players.
Why do teams like Leeds, Southampton play so well but lose in the end? Because the quality of players they have is not good compared to the teams like Manchester United etc. No Southampton player is going to get into our starting 11.
Ole is a medium level coach. Give this team to a top coach and he will get more out of this team.
 
Result wise, we are third in the first Ole full season.

Playing wise, we are absolutely great in big/important games: Very disciplined defend and deadly counter-attack. Every time we are faced with a difficult period we handle it well.

I don't know how can anyone watch us and still think we are "awfully coached". For sure Ole coaching ability can be (and need to be) improved, but we are far from awfully coached.
 
Slik said:
So there is coaching against big teams and a lack of coaching against small teams. How confused are you?
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Is it that hard to understand? we have ONE way of playing that seems coached, counterattack. Thats it. It obviously wont work against small/low block teams since they wont give you the spaces, so in those situations another system must be used and Ole has not been able to do it, at least not properly. Is it clear enough for you?
 
Foxbatt said:
Why do teams like Leeds, Southampton play so well but lose in the end?
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Because Ole outcoached the other manager it seems. Dont think it has anything to do with us having a squad thas worth 3-4 times more.
 
Ole:“So we don’t want to be… defined in just one style of play. We want to have positive players expressing their talents, of course, we want to dominate games. So we’re building on it. We’re working on it and players are developing.”
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You're not awfully coached at all, but you are still developing as a team. With the players had Ole worked on the counter attacking side of the team first and you're generally very good at that. Once Bruno came in, you began to develop long passing moves and creativity around the box breaking down those low blocks and there's plenty of evidence of that this year. Apparently one of Ole's favourite games so far was the Everton game recently as it showed what this team can do.

Ole: “More and more teams, when they drop back, you want to be the team that can break teams down. I think we showed against Everton the type of team that we can be: we scored from crosses, from long attacks that were built up and we scored the winning goal on a counter-attack.”
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People who say they can not see a style, I think are missing the point, that the style changes, you're not Liverpool or City with a distinctive set up regardless of the opposition, rather you're becoming a very flexible team that deals with all the different problems different matches throw up.
 
The Boy said:
People who say they can not see a style, I think are missing the point, that the style changes, you're not Liverpool or City with a distinctive set up regardless of the opposition, rather you're becoming a very flexible team that deals with all the different problems different matches throw up.
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That's exactly the point. Our template is to go back to the 2007/2008 team. I think it's getting clearer every day that we don't want to be predictable anymore. Rather, we want to be super unpredictable, and solve the problem in front of us dynamically. That team has won the PL and the CL. Winning at all cost is the only template here.

I think Ole will be an incredible success in this club. Because the vision is clear, and it's also interesting to note all the players seem to buy into that vision. Those are professional players. Why? Because they understand what we are building.
 
Gasolin said:
That's exactly the point. Our template is to go back to the 2007/2008 team. I think it's getting clearer every day that we don't want to be predictable anymore. Rather, we want to be super unpredictable, and solve the problem in front of us dynamically. That team has won the PL and the CL. Winning at all cost is the only template here.

I think Ole will be an incredible success in this club. Because the vision is clear, and it's also interesting to note all the players seem to buy into that vision. Those are professional players. Why? Because they understand what we are building.
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Potter is doing the exact same idea with us at Brighton, though our players are not quite up there with yours! But I think this is the future for top level teams.
 
SAFMUTD said:
Because Ole outcoached the other manager it seems. Dont think it has anything to do with us having a squad thas worth 3-4 times more.
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Tbf it works both ways. When we beat big clubs it's because of all the space we get, when we beat mid and small clubs it's because we have better talents than them.
 
roonster09 said:
Tbf it works both ways. When we beat big clubs it's because of all the space we get, when we beat mid and small clubs it's because we have better talents than them.
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I dont think anyone can critique the way Ole plays against big teams. Its not ideal everyone would want to be on the front foot dominating but against top teams if about being effective.

Whats he's heavily criticized is by the form the team shows against poor teams.
 
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