We are an awfully coached team

NZT-One said:
No. People were excited because Moyes' days were gone and some people mentioned his time at Bayern where he supposedly layed some of the groundwork for the monster they became under Pep and Heynckes. I can't speak for anybody, but I know I didn't consider him as a current top manager. His display at the WC even confirmed that.
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Nope. Search the posts around after the WC and you'd see what I am talking about
 
slyadams said:
Quite, when your manager is not coveted by anyone it should tell you something.
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I'd argue that is looking at it the wrong way though.

Ole is or perhaps was, at the time of hiring the right fit for us

We needed someone who understood the club, its culture and its heritage. The argument that other clubs wouldnt want him comes up often, and probably does have some merit but at the same time he still has done a job for us that both LVG and Mourinho couldn't, in shaping a squad that is capable of challenging for the league and getting us into CL on the regular. I agree though, that whether he is the man to make the next step is up for debate.
 
anant said:
Nope. Search the posts around after the WC and you'd see what I am talking about
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I am sure you wouldn't you lie to me so fair enough. But you wrote "everyone was excited" and I can tell you, no that isn't the case. Not just because I wasn't excited but also because I know that there were quite a few skeptical people in the fan community I was on back then. Granted, might be connected with this being a German forum so most participants knew LVG from his time at Bayern, his antics, his stupid transfers of whack dutch players, his rigidness of play, his "the others are at fault" stuff.
The world cup performances of Netherlands weren't great iirc, weren' they? One very good match against Spain in the opener but then borefest after borefest. He achieved quite well with a subpar squad, I'll give him that but people knew back then, what coaches are able to do so you see me quite suprised that this place here were thinking he has been a great one at the time of arrival.
 
NZT-One said:
I am sure you wouldn't you lie to me so fair enough. But you wrote "everyone was excited" and I can tell you, no that isn't the case. Not just because I wasn't excited but also because I know that there were quite a few skeptical people in the fan community I was on back then. Granted, might be connected with this being a German forum so most participants knew LVG from his time at Bayern, his antics, his stupid transfers of whack dutch players, his rigidness of play, his "the others are at fault" stuff.
The world cup performances of Netherlands weren't great iirc, weren' they? One very good match against Spain in the opener but then borefest after borefest. He achieved quite well with a subpar squad, I'll give him that but people knew back then, what coaches are able to do so you see me quite suprised that this place here were thinking he has been a great one at the time of arrival.
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By everyone, I obviously mean majority here, not literally everyone.

As far as WC performances were concerned, people were high on the 5-1, the RVP-LVG bond, the sub before PKs and obviously they reached the semis when very few gave them a chance. Add to that, we had a top summer window (atleast that's what it looked then) where we signed Falcao and ADM in addition to Blind, Herrera and Shaw. So, the forum was pretty excited. If I remember correctly, we had a really good pre-season as well. But coming back to the original questions, while some had concerns, very few would have put him in the "past-it" bucket
 
Champ said:
Ole used 30 different players throughout last Premiership season - this was 5 more than City, and more than Chelsea and Liverpool.

He has also used 20 different players this season which is again more than City and only one less than Chelsea and Liverpool.

This myth of Ole not using his players needs to stop as it's inherently wrong.

Yes, Ole has his favourite starting players, every manager does, but he has shown that he can mix it up if required and when needed.
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nice try...you know exactly what I’m getting at...when everyone is fit...it’s the same 11 with either Rashford or Pogba on the left. 20 players this season? Starting 11 v Leeds Varane, Sancho not available, bought Ronaldo so that’s 14 of your 20, Fred and McTominay not available...No Starts or significant minutes for squad players or giving young players minutes to integrate them into our setup...the rest are late substitutions. Your stats are as bad as pointing at the league last year and saying “but we finished second...we must have been good”. It’s no myth that Ole will play the same 11 week in week out if they are fit. You can’t seriously be arguing that point?

when he is forced to bring players in, its noticeable in our performance. If we were to Lose any one of Shaw, Maguire, Pogba, Bruno, Fred, McTominay...it’s hard to tell what iteration of ManUtd would show up because, IMO, it’s the type of players he chooses that dictate how we play as opposed to having a defined footballing identity that his players have to buy into. Both approaches get results but I would argue that it’s that consistency in terms of playing style that have allowed City, Pool, Barca over the years, Madrid, Bayern certainly- to steamroll seasons...even when a number of first team players are not available. Olehas shown no faith in his bench, the Carabao is now gone and so Where are the minutes coming from to ensure his squad is performing- A well coached team, that wins titles, needs a well functioning squad.
 
We forget quickly our away form unbeaten. Don't forget that I remember Fergie having some ordinary results against ordinary opposition. We can't win every game 5-0. Ole has spots to still fill and needs more strengthening in positions we all know about. Ronnie, Varane and Sancho are amazing signings. He is trying to clear out players and has done that well already. He can't help we pay them too much and won't go.
 
Jose and LVG were both more prestigious coaches than Ole and they served up sh1t sandwiches. They had access to less good players though. But that wasn't the issue. The issue was that their style of play was outmoded.

The problem with Ole is not that he is a bad coach per se. He's kind of good to middling. The problem is that he also subscribes to a fairly simple and old fashioned setup which relies on really good players producing moments of magic for its added extra. So a balanced organised team of less good players can sometimes embarrass us. And as soon as our best players get gassed we look a bit vulnerable and start shipping points. That said we are still a top team and likely to finish in the top four. And at least his teams are fun to watch most of the time.

It's not really a coincidence that the best coaches in the premier league subscribe to a high press philosophy. It churns out results and is easy on the eye too when done right. We simply don't have the right players for that kind of play, so simply dumping Ole is not a solution in isolation. You'd have to get one of the rare managers who know how to do the high press well, or you end up like Arsenal and Arteta. And you'd have to rebuild or retrain the squad too.
 
anant said:
By everyone, I obviously mean majority here, not literally everyone.

As far as WC performances were concerned, people were high on the 5-1, the RVP-LVG bond, the sub before PKs and obviously they reached the semis when very few gave them a chance. Add to that, we had a top summer window (atleast that's what it looked then) where we signed Falcao and ADM in addition to Blind, Herrera and Shaw. So, the forum was pretty excited. If I remember correctly, we had a really good pre-season as well. But coming back to the original questions, while some had concerns, very few would have put him in the "past-it" bucket
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Yeah I remember that too. I think, all of these factors created a pretty happy place, I don't want to pretend that I wasn't excited about our season ahead. I also didn't want to depict myself as being in the know about LVG being past it, but I had my fair share of concerns, again mainly because of geographical closeness to Bayern and Bayern fans who were literally celebrating when he was axed. So all in all, interesting to hear, that the situation seemed to be more extatic than within the German fanbase of United (or at least the parts of it, represented by the Transfermarkt-Userforum).
 
There's a piece about Pep and Tuchel in the Independent that is too nauseatingly praise-filled to post (the phrase "football's chess grandmasters" is used in the title and it gets more sickly from there) but I thought these points were relevant from this thread's POV:

This is about more than the idiosyncrasies of two super-obsessive men, though. The fact they meet again in club football’s greatest fixture illustrates how this intense mindset has gradually taken over the elite end of the game. It isn’t quite revenge of the nerds, to use Tuchel’s own word, but it is a reflection of how a higher level of thinking generally leads to a higher level of performance. Some managers will inevitably beat them in any individual match - or even over a brief period of time - but if they can’t match them in preparing for every square metre of the pitch, the gaps only grow greater over time. Put simply, less is left to chance

.......

You might even call it the “NFL-isation” of football. The game is just so much more rigorously prepared than even a decade ago. Bill Shankly’s maxim is no longer true. Football is no longer a simple game complicated by idiots, but an increasingly complex game, enriched by “geniuses”. It naturally lends itself to those who obsess over every millimetre.

Much of this comes from the tactical evolution first sparked by Guardiola himself at Barcelona.

"I think, 10 years ago, Pep created a new idea of football," Reschke argues. "It was the main influence on football in the last 30 years. All of the intelligent young coaches - every one of them, Julian Nagelsmann, Thomas Tuchel - is influenced by him. You can see it in England, too."

Guardiola's possession-pressing game was gradually complemented by advances in sports science and analytics. They caused a huge leap forward in team preparation. All of this combined to ensure football became infinitely more co-ordinated, from pressing to attacking.

For most of football’s modern history, defending was necessarily predictable and organised, while forward play was freeform in order to encourage creation. This is one other element that has been turned on its head by coaches like Guardiola.

Fabregas recently told the Wall Street Journal that he realised the true extent of this under Antonio Conte at Chelsea in 2016. “It was more like, ‘You have to do what I want you to do. You will do this, and we will repeat it over and over again, for months and months, until you get it right. And we will play like a mechanized robot thing. You can play with your eyes closed. The ball comes to you and you know what you have to do, because your teammate will be exactly at the right time at the right place".

Tuchel isn't identical, but he is along the same path. The German spent one Chelsea press conference speaking about how his approach is to put in place a structure that eventually puts players in the position to show “their creativity”. Almost everything is co-ordinated until the moment of decisiveness.

“It’s just to give possibility, and from the possibilities it is the free choice of the players,” Tuchel explained. This is what Guardiola has also taken on, as his own approach has evolved since Barcelona.

"Football has developed,” Reschke concurs. “It is now like American football, where you have special coaches. OK, not exactly the same, but closer and closer. Football is at a new level. A fantastic level. You need coaches who can read games, who can present teams with solutions. More coaches come up with special plans, so success becomes dependent on smaller details.”

This is why Tuchel starts screaming at players when they are a metre out of position. It can make the difference between, say, one-on-one defending working dependably and proving a disaster. This is the level now, where tactical approaches that push the limits require players to push the limits too.

......

It can be a little hard to square that kind of obsessiveness with another side of the game, where successful managers like Zinedine Zidane talk so vaguely about “enjoying the ball”.

“Football is played by humans so there are a lot of factors, but it is incredible that clubs like Juventus and Chelsea have just gone for former players like Andrea Pirlo or Frank Lampard,” one official who has worked at a top club argues. “Who knows if they are even up to it? The game has moved way beyond talking about mentality or experience. It’s much more sophisticated than ever before.”

Much of this becomes apparent on the training ground. That, to a far greater degree than ever before, is where games are really won and lost. That is the only place players can really learn and internalise the intricate approaches set out by coaches like Tuchel and Guardiola.....

“What we try to implement in training is the mix of respecting your zone," Tuchel explained in February, "and to have a structure and then the freedom for the creativity and the quality and the intuition of players. That is a constant mix.”

It is why Tuchel is constantly “demanding”, according to captain Cesar Azpilicueta. “Training is very specific,” Cesar Azpilicueta says. “His focus is on every action, when a player is out of position."

This is one area, nevertheless, where Tuchel is said to be more “relaxed” than Guardiola. The Catalan’s sessions are said to be innovative, but what really elevates them is the manic intensity.

One drill for example involves three players standing in a column, but all moving along rows at the same time while passing to each other. The idea is that the ball always keeps moving between them at the same pace. That’s fine when that pace is relatively relaxed. That is not what Guardiola demands.

There are common refrains that ring around the training ground. “No, no, no! Always fast, the ball never stops!”

One training ground source says "it would give you a headache". This is why people say Guardiola's intensity has a finite effect, and why many felt that was the case at City earlier this season. Players continue to buy in, however, when they continue to see spectacular results.
“Joshua Kimmich told me that, after one year of Pep, he would be nervous before every training session,” Reschke reveals. “He knows he has to be focused. There is no idle talk. When you train with Pep, everything is top level. He shows you how to pass, how to stand when you receive the pass… he just opens your door in football. The difference is the detail.”
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Solskjaer is competing directly against obsessively detail orientated managers, so that's the context against which his side's coaching is being judged. I don't think we're badly coached but I also don't think we're as thoroughly coached as those other teams and it shows in our play.
 
rron10 said:
Please name me a few top coaches that we should hire right now. Realistic ones not Peps or Klopps.
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Conte and Zidane. Rodgers and Ten Hag if you want to get a bit more risky.

In the last 12 months Tuchel, Nagelsman, Allegri and Flick were all available. Pochettino too but I am not a big fan of him. We could have tried tempting Mancini or Luis Enrique.

Should I go on?
 
Revan said:
Conte and Zidane. Rodgers and Ten Hag if you want to get a bit more risky.

In the last 12 months Tuchel, Nagelsman, Allegri and Flick were all available. Pochettino too but I am not a big fan of him. We could have tried tempting Mancini or Luis Enrique.

Should I go on?
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Do you really believe Zidane would play good football and win us trophies ? I never liked his “no style” football and I strongly believe he will not succeed in the PL.

Conte yes, he is a top manager with success in different leagues, clubs and circumstances, he might be the answer if we will be in search of a new manager.

Rodgers for me is a big no and I don’t rate him as a top manager.
 
captaincantona said:
nice try...you know exactly what I’m getting at...when everyone is fit...it’s the same 11 with either Rashford or Pogba on the left. 20 players this season? Starting 11 v Leeds Varane, Sancho not available, bought Ronaldo so that’s 14 of your 20, Fred and McTominay not available...No Starts or significant minutes for squad players or giving young players minutes to integrate them into our setup...the rest are late substitutions. Your stats are as bad as pointing at the league last year and saying “but we finished second...we must have been good”. It’s no myth that Ole will play the same 11 week in week out if they are fit. You can’t seriously be arguing that point?

when he is forced to bring players in, its noticeable in our performance. If we were to Lose any one of Shaw, Maguire, Pogba, Bruno, Fred, McTominay...it’s hard to tell what iteration of ManUtd would show up because, IMO, it’s the type of players he chooses that dictate how we play as opposed to having a defined footballing identity that his players have to buy into. Both approaches get results but I would argue that it’s that consistency in terms of playing style that have allowed City, Pool, Barca over the years, Madrid, Bayern certainly- to steamroll seasons...even when a number of first team players are not available. Olehas shown no faith in his bench, the Carabao is now gone and so Where are the minutes coming from to ensure his squad is performing- A well coached team, that wins titles, needs a well functioning squad.
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Mate, just give it a rest.

The stats are there for all to see, Ole has used more players than Klopp last season and Pep, that's despite Liverpool's supposed injury crisis.

You are clutching at imaginary straws.

Liverpool's performances dropped off massively when they had to make changes, City less so due to the strength they have in depth.
 
rron10 said:
Do you really believe Zidane would play good football and win us trophies ?
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Do we play good football? No
Did Zidane's real played betetr football than us? Yes
Has Zidane shown that he can win big trophies? Yes
Has Ole shown it? No

rron10 said:
Conte yes, he is a top manager with success in different leagues, clubs and circumstances, he might be the answer if we will be in search of a new manager.
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Yup, he is a top manager.

rron10 said:
Rodgers for me is a big no and I don’t rate him as a top manager.
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I do not think he is great, but he is a better coach than Ole.
 
Tim: Hoping I am wrong but United don't seem to have learned any lessons from last season. Often too easy to defend against and relying too much on moments of individual brilliance. Protection for the back four often non-existent.
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That comment on the BBC sums us up perfectly. Anyone who thinks we're going to challenge for the title under Ole needs their heads checking. We'll fizzle out, we rely time and again on individual players to produce moments, which isn't going to happen every week. It's such a shame that this squad of players will be wasted.
 
Based on the last game and a bit, one thing I hope our coaches do immediately is get our players to stop taking stupid shots from distance instead of being patient actually building to high quality chances.

The amount of good chances we've had relative to the volume of shots we've taken over the last game and a half is poor.
 
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What is this "coached" word you mention?? Never heard of it
 
It’s so so so obvious we’ll win nothing under him. The top reds on here don’t like it & I know we have to pacify them sometimes but feck, can we get a decent coach in & actually get somewhere with this unbelievable squad please?!
 
It's dumb and dumber football, a competition to see who's gonna make the next stupid pass or shot and every player is in it.
 
This half made me believe there is some truth in this. That was all over the place.
 
That first half shows how Ole and the coaching team simply don’t have what it takes. That team is laden with top quality yet look poor, week in, week out. It’s neither attractive or effective football but it will cost Ole his job this season.
 
I think this Villa game has officially convinced me that we need someone with more tactical nous to join the coaching team if Ole is going to remain as manager. I’ve been an Ole advocate for all this time, but we’ve now got a squad of absolute superstars and the lack of a proper set up is shocking.

We often bypass our midfield completely when attacking which means we are only good on the counter
 
The McFred combo always made sense to me until today.

Having to watch the Chelsea vs City game I have noticed how City are playing with KDB, Silva and Rodri a their CM.

KDB is playing high up, and Silva and Rodri seem to be sitting back. City are dominating the Midfield battle and Silva is holding his own against Rudiger.

I really don’t know know why we can not play with one defensive mid and a playmaker and still have Bruno operate as a number 10 or the furtherest CM.

I am getting sick of having to play McFred as if we can’t cope without playing with 2 CDMs.
 
He seems to have lost the dressing room? Defense looks like they are not tactically prepared.
 
Week after week after week of hoping a superstar bails us out while the brain trust acts their hearts out on the sidelines trying to pretend they know what they're doing.
 
We are made to look average against 95% of the teams we play.
 
Dembeza said:
The McFred combo always made sense to me until today.

Having to watch the Chelsea vs City game I have noticed how City are playing with KDB, Silva and Rodri a their CM.

KDB is playing high up, and Silva and Rodri seem to be sitting back. City are dominating the Midfield battle and Silva is holding his own against Rudiger.

I really don’t know know why we can not play with one defensive mid and a playmaker and still have Bruno operate as a number 10 or the furtherest CM.

I am getting sick of having to play McFred as if we can’t cope without playing with 2 CDMs.
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Because City have Pep and we have Ole.
We are not good in possession. We have remained a transition team that rely on moments of quality from our superstars.
 
DRJosh said:
I think this Villa game has officially convinced me that we need someone with more tactical nous to join the coaching team if Ole is going to remain as manager. I’ve been an Ole advocate for all this time, but we’ve now got a squad of absolute superstars and the lack of a proper set up is shocking.

We often bypass our midfield completely when attacking which means we are only good on the counter
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I agree. I’ve thought for a while we need to bring some experienced coaches in. Bar phelan and that guy we got from Chelsea our coaches have been around since Jose. The one common thing has been how bad we are at holding onto the ball.

I imagine it would be hard to shake up the staff mid season but you can bring in people for new ideas.
 
Shane88 said:
Week after week after week of hoping a superstar bails us out while the brain trust acts their hearts out on the sidelines trying to pretend they know what they're doing.
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100%. Careful though, you’ll have Wumminator naming and shaming you after the game.
 
Pashun FC, Vibes FC

Certainly explains the wild swings of inconsistency from one game to another.

You can only get so far being dependent on pure squad quality and magic moments. We have no control of games or structure.

Over a big sample size this will bite us in the ass.
 
Dembeza said:
The McFred combo always made sense to me until today.

Having to watch the Chelsea vs City game I have noticed how City are playing with KDB, Silva and Rodri a their CM.

KDB is playing high up, and Silva and Rodri seem to be sitting back. City are dominating the Midfield battle and Silva is holding his own against Rudiger.

I really don’t know know why we can not play with one defensive mid and a playmaker and still have Bruno operate as a number 10 or the furtherest CM.

I am getting sick of having to play McFred as if we can’t cope without playing with 2 CDMs.
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I thought the original thinking behind playing McFred was to protect a back 4 (particularly central defence) because of its lack of pace. Most seemed to think as soon as we had someone with a bit of pace in there, we could be a bit more adventurous in midfield. Varane is here. McFred still play. Turns out Ole is just a negative shithouse.
 
Wait for iiiiiittttt.....any minute now....where are the......“you are all just internet idiots that don’t know anything about coaching?

as I have said a million times in this thread...you don’t have to be a top level coach to look at players of unquestionable ability look absolutely clueless as to how to break down another team. This is the last 18 months. Wouldn’t be surprised if we win by2 or 3 but that doesn’t paint over the fact that this frustrating and slow football is how we play 80% of the time
 
Ole requires Star players to bail him out too often. He's lucky to be at United where he can spent money to replace players at ease. He won't be able to spend so much money to cover his weakness at any other club.
 
ray24 said:
Ole requires Star players to bail him out too often. He's lucky to be at United where he can spent money to replace players at ease. He won't be able to spend so much money to cover his weakness at any other club.
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I agree.
 
If Eric Ramsey spent half as much time drilling the team for set-pieces as he does in the gym to look all buff we might be half decent.
 
Why was AWB marking their CB in corners? He is one of our worst in the air.
 
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