We are an awfully coached team

[cyberman]

Interesting quote from Luke Moore on the Football Ramble after the West Ham loss. Something like: “something I couldn’t help noticing is that Man United just seem like a really badly coached side”.

I wouldn’t go looking to the football ramble for tactical insights.

 

[rron10]

Love Ole to bits,good man manager but out of his depth here.He's done a good job of rebuilding and we have the best squad we have had in quite some time but they need a top coach to guide them and it's just not Ole.Step up/aside and go after 'best in class'.
Who ever that is.

“Top coaches” had left us in the past with an unbalanced, aging squad with a lot of bad apples.
We want to go backwards or forward ?

 

[stefan92]

“Top coaches” had left us in the past with an unbalanced, aging squad with a lot of bad apples.
We want to go backwards or forward ?

There is a difference between actual top coaches and past-it big names. The question is how do you find the next top coach, not running after those who where it a decade ago?

 

[Rash Decision]

“Top coaches” had left us in the past with an unbalanced, aging squad with a lot of bad apples.
We want to go backwards or forward ?

Honestly this is a tired and illogical argument. Does this mean we should never again try for a top coach? If the next Pep or Tuchel came to us with a superb track record, we should say no because we once tried hiring a top coach or two (who were both in serious decline by then) and it didn’t work out? What makes United so unique that we are the only club in the world for whom a top coach is a bad thing?

 

[stefan92]

Honestly this is a tired and illogical argument. Does this mean we should never again try for a top coach? If the next Pep or Tuchel came to us with a superb track record, we should say no because we once tried hiring a top coach or two (who were both in serious decline by then) and it didn’t work out? What makes United so unique that we are the only club in the world for whom a top coach is a bad thing?

Just as you mention, don't sign a top coach on his decline. Sign one at his peak or on the way up to it.

 

[Pace Abuser]

“Top coaches” had left us in the past with an unbalanced, aging squad with a lot of bad apples.
We want to go backwards or forward ?

They were about as top coaches as Cantona is currently a top player.

 

[Lyng]

Just as you mention, don't sign a top coach on his decline. Sign one at his peak or on the way up to it.

The big issue is to find one that is available and would be able to work with our players.
Nagelsmann went to Bayern. Flick to the national team. Tuchel to Chelsea.
I am not convinced Ten Haag would work in United and Poch is a worse option than what we have I think.

 

[stefan92]

The big issue is to find one that is available and would be able to work with our players.
Nagelsmann went to Bayern. Flick to the national team. Tuchel to Chelsea.
I am not convinced Ten Haag would work in United and Poch is a worse option than what we have I think.

That's true, but it will always be true that managers at their peak have jobs where it is very difficult to get them from.

I also don't know who could actually improve United here.

 

[rron10]

Honestly this is a tired and illogical argument. Does this mean we should never again try for a top coach? If the next Pep or Tuchel came to us with a superb track record, we should say no because we once tried hiring a top coach or two (who were both in serious decline by then) and it didn’t work out? What makes United so unique that we are the only club in the world for whom a top coach is a bad thing?

Please name me a few top coaches that we should hire right now. Realistic ones not Peps or Klopps.

 

[slyadams]

I wouldn’t go looking to the football ramble for tactical insights.

Especially if they disagree with your position I guess?

In general I would say they’re on a par, or above, most media outlets.

 

[captaincantona]

Ole has his favourite 11 or 12 players and we have all watched them to death churn out the same slow, rigid football albeit getting results to an extent. We can hypothesise and reason the performances till the cows come home. We thought, last season at least, his unwillingness to make a sub was due to the quality of the bench. But now look- the Bench is Sancho, VDB, Lindelof, Martial...the quality of football is very similar and we don’t see anymore diversity in our line ups. We see the same team for every game that matters.

Whatever you say about Ole’s coaching...whether it’s a problem or not...surely, well coached teams are capable of replacing players without changing their style of play drastically and more importantly...without significant detriment to the quality of the performance. No matter what you say...Ole’s unwillingness to use his squad means he does not trust that the squad is good enough to implement his plans- he only trusts a set group. This is a huge indicator that the squad is not well coached.

 

[Champ]

Ole has his favourite 11 or 12 players and we have all watched them to death churn out the same slow, rigid football albeit getting results to an extent. We can hypothesise and reason the performances till the cows come home. We thought, last season at least, his unwillingness to make a sub was due to the quality of the bench. But now look- the Bench is Sancho, VDB, Lindelof, Martial...the quality of football is very similar and we don’t see anymore diversity in our line ups. We see the same team for every game that matters.

Whatever you say about Ole’s coaching...whether it’s a problem or not...surely, well coached teams are capable of replacing players without changing their style of play drastically and more importantly...without significant detriment to the quality of the performance. No matter what you say...Ole’s unwillingness to use his squad means he does not trust that the squad is good enough to implement his plans- he only trusts a set group. This is a huge indicator that the squad is not well coached.

Ole used 30 different players throughout last Premiership season - this was 5 more than City, and more than Chelsea and Liverpool.

He has also used 20 different players this season which is again more than City and only one less than Chelsea and Liverpool.

This myth of Ole not using his players needs to stop as it's inherently wrong.

Yes, Ole has his favourite starting players, every manager does, but he has shown that he can mix it up if required and when needed.

 

[anant]

There is a difference between actual top coaches and past-it big names. The question is how do you find the next top coach, not running after those who where it a decade ago?

An actual coach remains so until he becomes a past-it big name.

I think everyone was excited when we got in LVG after that WC. A lot of our fans were rooting for our opposition during LVG's 2nd season so that we can bring in another top coach in Mourinho. It's now with 20/20 hindsight that we're saying they were both past it

 

[slyadams]

The big issue is to find one that is available and would be able to work with our players.
Nagelsmann went to Bayern. Flick to the national team. Tuchel to Chelsea.
I am not convinced Ten Haag would work in United and Poch is a worse option than what we have I think.

You're mentioning coaches we could have gone for but chose not to because we wanted to stick with Ole. For what its worth Poch I think would have done a much better job, you might say he's unproven, but he's massively more proven than Ole.

Please name me a few top coaches that we should hire right now. Realistic ones not Peps or Klopps.

This can easily be turned around: do you think Ole is the best possible coach we could have right now? There is literally no coach out there better that we could attact?

 

[Ralph MIlne]

The interesting part here is that the squad is very satisfied with Ole and the coaching staff. Mind u that members of this squad have vast experience with other managers and coaching staff. We are getting better by each year under Ole. We play more attacking and entertaining. We break records. We attract the best players in the world. He is building a team and that takes time. YET, some of u would like to sack him. It's fascinating in a depressive way..

 

[Champ]

You're mentioning coaches we could have gone for but chose not to because we wanted to stick with Ole. For what its worth Poch I think would have done a much better job, you might say he's unproven, but he's massively more proven than Ole.

This can easily be turned around: do you think Ole is the best possible coach we could have right now? There is literally no coach out there better that we could attact?

How so?

 

[Fletchageddon]

How so?

Yeah, I'd love to see where they are going with this...Ole has at least won a few trophies/leagues and bettered Spurs/Poch's prem record repeatedly. And before you mention relegation Klopp got relegated when he was starting out too. So that is no indicator to quality of coach.

 

[Lyng]

You're mentioning coaches we could have gone for but chose not to because we wanted to stick with Ole. For what its worth Poch I think would have done a much better job, you might say he's unproven, but he's massively more proven than Ole.

This can easily be turned around: do you think Ole is the best possible coach we could have right now? There is literally no coach out there better that we could attact?

What exactly has Poch proven?

I don't think we can attract those that are better right now no. If you can think of one please do tell.

 

[slyadams]

How so?

What exactly has Poch proven?

I don't think we can attract those that are better right now no. If you can think of one please do tell.

In the PL Ole's experience was taking Cardiff down, Poch took Spurs to a series of 2nd and 3rd place finishes and a CL runner up place with a squad containing a fraction of the talent Ole has. Ole's level was managing in the Norweigan league and Poch was given the PSG job. The two are different levels when it comes to coaching. If Ole left United, do you think Barca, Real, Bayern, Juve, Inter, PSG etc. would be sniffing around? Whether you like it or not Ole is objectively nowhere near the standard of the United job and outside of United fans, its not even a controversial statement.

In the PL alone Rodgers is a miles better coach than Ole. He'd never get offered the United job, but that wasn't the question.

 

[Bilbo]

In the PL Ole's experience was taking Cardiff down, Poch took Spurs to a series of 2nd and 3rd place finishes and a CL runner up place with a squad containing a fraction of the talent Ole has. Ole's level was managing in the Norweigan league and Poch was given the PSG job. The two are different levels when it comes to coaching. If Ole left United, do you think Barca, Real, Bayern, Juve, Inter, PSG etc. would be sniffing around? Whether you like it or not Ole is objectively nowhere near the standard of the United job and outside of United fans, its not even a controversial statement.

In the PL alone Rodgers is a miles better coach than Ole. He'd never get offered the United job, but that wasn't the question.

The only criteria that needs to be considered when it comes to whether Ole is 'objectively nowhere near the standard of the United job' is how he has performed in this job. Anything that happened before is irrelevant.

Have a closer look at Rodgers European record across his career before you make too many claims about his ability level. You might be surprised.

 

[Lyng]

In the PL Ole's experience was taking Cardiff down, Poch took Spurs to a series of 2nd and 3rd place finishes and a CL runner up place with a squad containing a fraction of the talent Ole has. Ole's level was managing in the Norweigan league and Poch was given the PSG job. The two are different levels when it comes to coaching. If Ole left United, do you think Barca, Real, Bayern, Juve, Inter, PSG etc. would be sniffing around? Whether you like it or not Ole is objectively nowhere near the standard of the United job and outside of United fans, its not even a controversial statement.

In the PL alone Rodgers is a miles better coach than Ole. He'd never get offered the United job, but that wasn't the question.

Exactly. Poch hasn't won anything either.

 

[slyadams]

Exactly. Poch hasn't won anything either.

If winning something of note qualifies a manager then by your own standards Ole is completely unqualified.

 

[Champ]

In the PL Ole's experience was taking Cardiff down, Poch took Spurs to a series of 2nd and 3rd place finishes and a CL runner up place with a squad containing a fraction of the talent Ole has. Ole's level was managing in the Norweigan league and Poch was given the PSG job. The two are different levels when it comes to coaching. If Ole left United, do you think Barca, Real, Bayern, Juve, Inter, PSG etc. would be sniffing around? Whether you like it or not Ole is objectively nowhere near the standard of the United job and outside of United fans, its not even a controversial statement.

In the PL alone Rodgers is a miles better coach than Ole. He'd never get offered the United job, but that wasn't the question.

I merely asked how you believe Poch to be more 'proven', i never said it was a controversial statement - the fact that you deem it to be suggests you believe it probably is.

They both started their careers at similar times, Ole at United academy, Poch at Espanyol, they have both taken control of premiership teams, and now both are in control of two of the biggest clubs in Europe - although with Ole you could say the world. Both hvae got through to European finals (and lost), both have finished in the top four of the Premiership.

You are talking at cross purposes here, you are claiming Poch is BETTER than Ole, not more 'proven'. Ole has won trophies, Poch hasn't, a simplistic answer maybe but it's the truth.

Also, many on here are claiming that the issue with Ole is he only gets so far in terms of winning trophies, and chokes when we get a chance, that also sums Poch up in a nutshell.

You seem to be another who wants to have their cake and eat it in regards to trying to claim Ole is a poor coach or United are a poorly coached team.

 

[Lyng]

If winning something of note qualifies a manager then by your own standards Ole is completely unqualified.

I think Ole has done a great job rebuilding the team and adding United spirit back in to the team.
I do however do think that's as far as he will be able to take us.
My issue is that, if we get a new manager he needs to move us to the next level AND not destroy the teamspirit and mentality that Ole has brought in.
I am not convinced Poch can handle Ronaldo.

I think Hansi Flick would be the perfect signing but I don't see how we can get him?

 

[SAF is the GOAT]

We all talk about Cardiff like its an established club with means.

but lets be honest : its a weak team with no money to invest or spend and a very limited budget .

Not a lot of managers would have a success of making them stay in the league and we're talking on here as if they aren't go down to the championship and come up to the PL every few years.

 

[HailtotheKing]

An actual coach remains so until he becomes a past-it big name.

I think everyone was excited when we got in LVG after that WC. A lot of our fans were rooting for our opposition during LVG's 2nd season so that we can bring in another top coach in Mourinho. It's now with 20/20 hindsight that we're saying they were both past it

I think it was more in hope than anything else. Most of us knew Mourinho was past it. Had he come straight after Fergie he'd have probably won the lot. But coming after LVG who has a totally different football philosophy was asking a lot. And it was also rather stupid of our management and evidence of why we need a proper Director of Football so that we don't have to dismantle our squad every time a new manager comes in who plays different. But ultimately, we wanted anyone but Louis so welcomed Mourinho with open arms just to take us away from the snoreball.

 

[slyadams]

We all talk about Cardiff like its an established club with means.

but lets be honest : its a weak team with no money to invest or spend and a very limited budget .

Not a lot of managers would have a success of making them stay in the league and we're talking on here as if they aren't go down to the championship and come up to the PL every few years.

I'm not saying this is all Ole should be judged by, but we seem to be operating with double standards. Ole takes a limited Cardiff team down, "that's OK". Poch takes a spurs squad to 2nd and CL runner up, and its "well, he's not won anything".

 

[Amarsdd]

I'm not saying this is all Ole should be judged by, but we seem to be operating with double standards. Ole takes a limited Cardiff team down, "that's OK". Poch takes a spurs squad to 2nd and CL runner up, and its "well, he's not won anything".

that's quite an understatement considering the state of that team.

 

[HailtotheKing]

Ole has done a great job and we now have a really good squad. I'm not sure he's the man to take us to the next level, but I think before we replace him we should first look at hiring better coaches. It baffles me that as a relative novice, he was happy to have Carrick, Phelan, and McKenna, who are all similar to him (with the exception of Phelan who's not even doing the coaching). He needs someone that covers his weaknesses. And right now it seems like he has a bunch of yes men who value team togetherness more than actual tactics. That may sound harsh but it's hard to think any different when you see how we play and our decision-making on and off the field. Let's get a great coach in and then see how Ole does.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Doubt Ole would get a prem job if he was fired and that's saying a lot.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Ole has done a great job and we now have a really good squad. I'm not sure he's the man to take us to the next level, but I think before we replace him we should first look at hiring better coaches. It baffles me that as a relative novice, he was happy to have Carrick, Phelan, and McKenna, who are all similar to him (with the exception of Phelan who's not even doing the coaching). He needs someone that covers his weaknesses. And right now it seems like he has a bunch of yes men who value team togetherness more than actual tactics. That may sound harsh but it's hard to think any different when you see how we play and our decision-making on and off the field. Let's get a great coach in and then see how Ole does.

I honestly think this is the Mckenna show at training.

 

[slyadams]

Doubt Ole would get a prem job if he was fired and that's saying a lot.

Quite, when your manager is not coveted by anyone it should tell you something.

 

[Amarsdd]

Quite, when your manager is not coveted by anyone it should tell you something.

How do you know? I think people here will be genuinely surprised by the level of managerial jobs he'll get after United if/when he leaves. People (fans) really like to overrate other managers in the league while highly highly underrating the job Ole has done here.

 

[anant]

I think it was more in hope than anything else. Most of us knew Mourinho was past it. Had he come straight after Fergie he'd have probably won the lot. But coming after LVG who has a totally different football philosophy was asking a lot. And it was also rather stupid of our management and evidence of why we need a proper Director of Football so that we don't have to dismantle our squad every time a new manager comes in who plays different. But ultimately, we wanted anyone but Louis so welcomed Mourinho with open arms just to take us away from the snoreball.

Not so sure about it. The frenzy on here when he was unveiled had people drooling. We were talking about him looking sharp and well rested and I think at the start of 2nd season, a lot of people genuinely thought we'd win the league or run City very close.

As far as the 2nd part of the argument is concerned, I agree and that's been one of the main reasons I'm not in favour of us jumping onto the next trending manager.

 

[Matriac]

How do you know? I think people here will be genuinely surprised by the level of managerial jobs he'll get after United if/when he leaves. People (fans) really like to overrate other managers in the league while highly highly underrating the job Ole has done here.

Exactly. We don't hear about anyone else showing interest because everyone knows that it's practically impossible to convince a manager to leave United for another club (unless the board fires them), so it's useless for them to even speculate. We never heard about anyone wanting to hire Moyes, LVG or Mou while they were still in the manager seat at Old Trafford.

PL Clubs approached Ole both before and after Cardiff. Now after managing United for such a long spell, showing his ability to build a squad, he would get even more offers. Might be a tougher sell for a Top 10 European club as his next gig if he doesn't win a trophy first, but I wouldn't bet any money against it either.

 

[sullydnl]

How do you know? I think people here will be genuinely surprised by the level of managerial jobs he'll get after United if/when he leaves. People (fans) really like to overrate other managers in the league while highly highly underrating the job Ole has done here.

Hypothetically speaking what level of job do you think Ole would get if he were to leave here at the end of this season?

 

[He'sRaldo]

We never heard about anyone wanting to hire Moyes, LVG or Mou while they were still in the manager seat at Old Trafford.

LVG was retiring the next year and Moyes only lasted a few months, so obviously they wouldn't have any rumours.

As for Jose, there were rumours of him to PSG, which basically caused that daft contract extension.

 

[NZT-One]

An actual coach remains so until he becomes a past-it big name.

I think everyone was excited when we got in LVG after that WC. A lot of our fans were rooting for our opposition during LVG's 2nd season so that we can bring in another top coach in Mourinho. It's now with 20/20 hindsight that we're saying they were both past it

No. People were excited because Moyes' days were gone and some people mentioned his time at Bayern where he supposedly layed some of the groundwork for the monster they became under Pep and Heynckes. I can't speak for anybody, but I know I didn't consider him as a current top manager. His display at the WC even confirmed that.

How do you know? I think people here will be genuinely surprised by the level of managerial jobs he'll get after United if/when he leaves. People (fans) really like to overrate other managers in the league while highly highly underrating the job Ole has done here.

I have to agree here. Oles good job at United hasn't been gone unnoticed by other clubs. If we (rightfully) credit Poch for his work at Tottenham, there is no other choice to credit Ole for his job as well. The extent míght be debatable but thats pretty subjective. I am sure, he will be able to land a job after United. But I am also pretty sure, none of the bigger teams would go for him, because I think, they also see some of the shortcomings and as long as there are candidates without, they won't go for Ole.

But, and that is a big thing in my eyes, the job that Ole has done for us, to reset us after LVG and Mourinho, establish a good mood around the club, calm everything down, stabilize results, do sensible recruiting - not all of that is what many teams are looking for when they think about the manager (and rightly so). It shouldn't be depending on the manager, if there is a long term plan behind recruiting and youth work. There shouldn't be the need for the manager to ensure most players find their environment comfortable to work with. These things should be a given in a modern top club. I am glad Ole did his part so we closed distance to some clubs that ran away in that regard. But as closer as we get to them, the more important other factors will be (ability to improve collective play, improve individuals, set a certain playstyle, react on observed strength and weaknesses). They should be the deciding factors if a manager should be given more time or not. We don't have to take one side between "Ole has done a great job" and "Ole needs to go". I'd say both can be true (not now obviously but maybe at some point in the future) so it doesn't make sense to argue which of those sides is the "right one".

Exactly. We don't hear about anyone else showing interest because everyone knows that it's practically impossible to convince a manager to leave United for another club (unless the board fires them), so it's useless for them to even speculate. We never heard about anyone wanting to hire Moyes, LVG or Mou while they were still in the manager seat at Old Trafford.

PL Clubs approached Ole both before and after Cardiff. Now after managing United for such a long spell, showing his ability to build a squad, he would get even more offers. Might be a tougher sell for a Top 10 European club as his next gig if he doesn't win a trophy first, but I wouldn't bet any money against it either.

I think, the bolded part applies to all top clubs, it isn't a United exclusive.

On the other side, I am pretty sure, none out of Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Bayern, Dortmund*, PSG, Madrid, Barcelona, Juve* will ever go for Ole. Nobody knows about the future and economic developments but I'd bet, none of them would take the risk. I'd say, not even if he manages to win the league this year (except we do it in spectacular fashion, which we are not really on the route for). So yeah, stating he couldn't even get a PL job is pretty naive, speculating he could go to another top club would belong in the same drawer though.

 

[Amarsdd]

Hypothetically speaking what level of job do you think Ole would get if he were to leave here at the end of this season?

I think clubs seeking stability will go for him asap esp clubs like Everton, West Ham who seem to go through crisis every couple of years but want to be in european places regularly. Aston Villa is another club I see going for him esp with what they are trying to achieve. He'd even be good for clubs like Arsenal, Spurs but their board would never touch him given the fan outrage that will bring.

And that's the big problem with Ole, his image. It has been dragged through the mud for now three years by the media whether it be its ABU or they project unreasonable expectations on a United manager without considering the context. If Ole was managing any other club with the same budget as he has had and doing the exact same job he has done at United, he'd be seen in a very different light than he is now. Just as a thought experiment, imagine Lampard at Chelsea finishing 3rd in his first season, 2nd in his second season and equal on points at the top right now and thought of as a title contender. The wanking over Lampard would be unbearable.

 

[NZT-One]

I think clubs seeking stability will go for him asap esp clubs like Everton, West Ham who seem to go through crisis every couple of years but want to be in european places regularly. Aston Villa is another club I see going for him esp with what they are trying to achieve. He'd even be good for clubs like Arsenal, Spurs but their board would never touch him given the fan outrage that will bring.

And that's the big problem with Ole, his image. It has been dragged through the mud for now three years by the media whether it be its ABU or they project unreasonable expectations on a United manager without considering the context. If Ole was managing any other club with the same budget as he has had and doing the exact same job he has done at United, he'd be seen in a very different light than he is now. Just as a thought experiment, imagine Lampard at Chelsea finishing 3rd in his first season, 2nd in his second season and equal on points at the top right now and thought of as a title contender. The wanking over Lampard would be unbearable.

I agree, that might be Oles big problem, but it certainly isn't the problem I tend to see around here. Sure, a fan favorite like Lampard will be perceived differently but lets not act as if his problem is bad PR. Of course there are a few individuals even here, who will harp about his CV, but the majority doesn't, they look at what he is doing and if they don't like aspects of what he is doing, they will express it.

On the rest of your post: I guess, Arsenal would also never touch him because of their fans, my thought was also Everton, think that could be a good fit. Ressources available but not overboard, Fans who expect to see good football and good results but are also aware that there fish in the pond who are bigger than them.