Point me to the UEFA license material please?
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
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Point me to the UEFA license material please?
Your exact words:
So you didn't think people could explain what they meant by phrases like "patterns of play" and thought if there was any truth in it would be some "groundbreaking moment" for football, yet were simultaneously arguing that we actually have it in our team already.
Forget reading other people's posts before trying to make an argument, try reading your own. You're arguing at cross purposes with yourself.
Scoring freely? Would you stop looking at stats and watch games. We have been shite this season full stop. The Leeds game is the reason you can make your point- we scored 4...that’s bumped up our numbers and so that is somehow a marker for how good we are generally at attacking? Did you watch the other 4 games?
Others talk about being second top scorers last season and point to that as evidence we are good going forward...But in reality, 19 of those 73 goals were scored in 3 games meaning we scored 54 in 35 games. Is that free scoring? What’s worse...on 11 occasions last season Jesse didn’t smash one in the top bin, Bruno didn’t find a killer pass or mason didn’t finish from a fuking impossible angle- and we drew...the point being made is that because we rely so heavily on individuals to produce it inevitably means we come up short to often to challenge for titles. City , Pool, Bayern, Barca, PSG, whoever will have one or two “Southampton “ games a season and go on to win titles by breaking teams down through relentless execution of their coaches tactics..we play slow ponderous shite until someone saves the day. We learned last season how well that works- so looking for a little more craft in our attack doesn’t make us a “genius”...it’s common sense.
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This thread can be summed up pretty easy:
Fans are idiots (me included).
We all have our opinions but not one of us is even close to being a premier league manager. All fantasizing we are genius'
Fans are idiots (me included).
We all have our opinions but not one of us is even close to being a premier league manager. All fantasizing we are genius'
So Lars thinks we rely on individual brilliance. Is that good or bad?
I've heard we rely on VAR, penalties, luck, counter attacks.. the list goes on.
Definitely agree with that last bit. It's why I don't like this combination of Pogba-Greenwood on the wing, need to get Sancho up and running ASAP.
On the point of SAF always having a brilliant squad, I think it was more that our system was so well-drilled that it always amounted to more than the sum of its parts: think back to that 2012/13 season where we had a genuine shot at Chelsea's points record going into April. Young and Valencia were our wingers for much of that season, and they both had crap campaigns individually, but the attack still functioned extremely efficiently. The next season we had the same individuals (Van Persie was admittedly unfit for a lot of it) but looked clueless in a lot of games - exhibit A, Fulham at home.
Think a lot of the frustration with the last few teams under Ole and Mourinho stems from that simple difference: when was the last time it felt like, going forward in particular, we were over-performing relative to the level of talent on the pitch? I don't think it's ever really happened for an extended period.
What kind of nonsense is this? We were the second top scorers last season, this isn’t a small sample size.
Our goals means less than other goals. If so then what’s the point in fancy patterns of play? Why is it so suddenly easy to score goals?
To recap, we are the top scorers in the league and have conceded 4 goals. 2 of those have been fluke deflections that left the keeper no chance so in real world terms when considering defensive structure, it’s 2 proper goals in 5 games.
We are a mess.
Ok, check out this pattern of play: DDG to Varane to DDG to AWB to Fred to Varane to McTominay to Maguire to Bruno to Pogba to Ronaldo, and BAM! Goal! Just like ping-pong, forward and back again, whilst moving the team forward gradually. I just came up with that myself, on the spot. Just plucked it out of my massive footballing brain like it was nothing. Easy.
Oot!
Oot!
Awful coach is awful good!
UEFA A License support material written by a UEFA A License holder and UEFA level 3 "B" tutor.
In case it's what you're setting me up for, please don't try to argue that a UEFA A License holder talking about "patterns of play" as part of UEFA A License support material isn't proof that "patterns of play" are a real thing as part of the A License. I can point to other A License and Pro Diploma holders using the term and concept but, more importantly, I'm tired from long posts already.
The arguments about lack patterns of play in relation to oles management are guff yes.
It would be groundbreaking. If this sacred patterns crap was so tantamount then we dont need Ronaldo, just some league 2 players and some genius like you to implement patterns. We will win the lot.
Its not difficult
He didn't put any validation on it. He just called it as he saw it. Called West Ham a very good team and was impressed by Moyes's work there and said that they have a clear idea of how they wanted to play.
I see Jezpeza is still running around calling names and accusing others of "talking guff" after the other guy first engaged with him in good faith with a couple of well-laid-out and perfectly reasonable posts, then realized the kind of blowhard he was dealing with and just slam-dunked him.
Best to stop digging at this point, buddy. You've been comprehensively shown up
Best to stop digging at this point, buddy. You've been comprehensively shown up
He is obviously a good coach. But there is not a lot of patterns of play etc that people are banging on about here. He has not won a lot either. I have followed Lagerback both as coach for Sweden and Iceland. But watched all games when he was our coach (Norway) . He is a very, very boring coach. Love block, counters, extremely directional and loves his set pieces (more especially long throws).
We've only played 5 games this season. 13 goals so far, every one from open play too if memory serves. We've had tap ins, 30 yard screamers & goals from fast counter attacks. We've even had a goal from a delicate short passing routine inside the area. We've had assists from centre-backs and full backs. Even feckin Fred has scored!
I realise there is room for improvement in our attacking play on occasion, but don't we think we might be going a little bit over the top?
I realise there is room for improvement in our attacking play on occasion, but don't we think we might be going a little bit over the top?
I don't see what his playing style has got to do with this though. I respect his opinion and I think he is very insightful in his comments. I don't like Hodgson's style or Big Sam's but they're clearly knowledgable and good coaches.
Can't believe Lagerback is some kind of reference point. Let's be honest for the most part Scandinavian teams (at least prior to this Denmark side) bore everybody to tears. Physical, strong, making the best use of their talent certainly - but he's not an authority on how to create the type of football people expect from United. Which if we are being honest is analysed to within an inch of its life, near perfection is expected from some.
He's an authority for setting up drab, stubborn sides. If a pattern of play is setting up a defensive block I'm sure he's an expert but the reality is he's no more credible than any other pundit offering an opinion. It's nice to hear as viewer but shouldn't be treated that seriously.
He's an authority for setting up drab, stubborn sides. If a pattern of play is setting up a defensive block I'm sure he's an expert but the reality is he's no more credible than any other pundit offering an opinion. It's nice to hear as viewer but shouldn't be treated that seriously.
No.
Because a lot of other teams have excellent players and that basic concept of coaching. See City winning the league last season and Chelsea winning the champions league. It's already common among top football sides.
I have no idea why you're pretending that we've argued patterns of play would render quality players irrelevant. You're the only person who has imagined that.
It's a particularly odd thing to say when you're arguing that we already have patterns of play in the same post. They can't be a groundbreaking thing that would let us win with League 2 players (as you and only you have imagined) and something we already have in our current team.
For most normal people they're just a standard thing for top sides to coach that help them play better. And we're saying we should do more of that and to a higher level.
Meanwhile you're in your own world flipping between saying people can't give you any definition of it, we already do it and it is the football equivalent of magic.
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I think, it needs to be noted, that Fergies United was pretty adaptable. Yes it was usually very counter attacking focused and (like todays team) weren't creating too many chances per game in his later years but they were able to switch between countering and possession based, deep block and pressing, could go on to score from set pieces. So these teams had some some stuff up their sleeve to make something work. This is, what we have been lacking a bit last year. Lets see how it pans out this season.
I wouldn't overdo the sceptical stuff for todays match. I mean, we hit the post and we could have got 1 or 2 penalties. While that isn't awesome, it is alright against a tricky opponent trained by Moyes (Mr. Hard-to-Beat). Using this game, it was an improvement on some games last season. At least in my eyes. Plus the subs were pretty brave, taking Pogba off could have easily backfired but it worked out. Stuff like that is good, even it doesn't work out all the time, at least he did something today.
I understand your point but one thing to note: while we scored many goals last season, we did so because our forwards have been pretty great. They overperformed on their xG, meaning they scored goals the average player prbably wouldn't have scored. That is to be expected somewhat because our players should be better than the average one. But still, it showed it negative effects as soon as we had to sub people off or went with a fringe-player team.
I agree with you, goal scoring in itself isn't the biggest issue these days. Creating chances can be one. And the stats suggest, that our competitors do it a bit better than we do, which might be an advantage for them. So why shouldn't we try to get something of that as well, if it doesn't work, nobody can take away the individual quality we have.
Joe Sixpack is still arguing with socrates... I respect your bravery. Maybe I try a different angle: You are right, having Ronaldo in the team will help your team regardless of patterns of play. But this pre-drilled moves can help the team even when you don't have such great players than we do. Look at Brighton for example, or last seasons Leeds. These teams aren't stacked with worldclass offensive players but are still able to create good numbers. Nobody wants to take anything away from current United because, as you said, it works to a large degree and that isn't just luck. But adding another layer may even make the team even stronger. I am sure you would agree, that players like Bruno, Ronaldo or Pogba can deal with freedom probably better than players like AWB or McTominay.
I'm very critical of him as is well documented, but I think we didn't play too badly today. There were periods where we moved the ball around, retained posession and switched the ball well. Still aspects we need to work on like how slow we move the ball, that we take too many touches, the pressing and the movement, but it was one of our better performances. Not too much to complain about.
Yeah that's fair enough, nobody has managed to crack the full potential of the squad since the great man himself.
For the first time in a long time, I'm entertained watching United again, but we could be more dominant. Not a complaint or a problem right now, but I worry come October when we have a run of tough games, and CL in the mix too.
I guess we can't complain too much, especially given our start last season compared to now!
It's impossible to complain with the points put on the board. And hopefully we'll start to rapidly improve our performances, 3 home games coming up which is just what we need. The performances have been pretty shoddy, no question. Some players (Maguire, AWB) really need to step up, and our midfield needs to improve quite dramatically.
Hopefully that Ramsey guy has a positive effect. Didn't think our corners were at all threatening today. Would really like to see Shaw outside the box and a non-defender take our corners. Just for the sake of our shape in preparation for counters. Really loathe seeing a left back running over to the righthand side to take a corner.
Well youve nailed it there. It is indeed mainly about players. And this is the first season for about a decade that we have a squad that looks good enough.
We have good coaching to go with that squad. We have been very good since operation restart, with the odd bad result such is life. But in terms of coaching and players, So do chelsea liverpool and city. You just seem to think that because paul pogba doesnt do the same feint on a shaw pass 14 times a game as bruno makes run on tangent x, that everything is a puddle of shit. We arent Burnley for goodness sake. We have some of the most creative and intelligent players on the planet and you think we should have an under 10s style of telling everything to every player? Were you in a come when LVG managed us and we did that bollocks?
We do have patterns of play. The argument we dont is just a little buzzword used to bash Ole even when we win.
What i am saying and you fail to understand is that essentially they are worth about as much as a tube of pringles. If patterns were this all important thing it would mean you dont need good players. The argument ‘such and such has better patterns and will guarantee x trophies’ is just arrant nonsense.
Again, this is an extreme you and only you are imagining.
Absolutely nobody is arguing that they're some super-powered thing with the ability to rid us of the need for good players. They're not that important and we're not claiming they are.
We're saying they're important enough to potentially be the difference between our already very good team filled with quality players and the absolute best teams in Europe who are also filled with quality players. That's it.
And I'm not even saying we don't have any patterns or structure as is, just that (like our set piece organisation last season) it's something we need to improve on as we're weak in that area compared to our rivals.
It's a pretty reasonable point that shouldn't have started multi-page arguments.
The biggest problem with Ole is that he's yet to win anything at the top level, which will always leave him open to doubts. Personally I love him but felt a lot of times that he hasn't managed games as well as he should've due to his lack of experience, like in the final against Villarreal, and I've seen this happen from time to time as well. Now that we have a top group of players I feel this should be his year but I always have this doubt because he hasn't done it as a manager before. I can't help it, and there's nothing I want more than to see him make it here. It'd be the dream.
Think of last season with Klopp, now any other manager would've been sacked following that horrible run, but because he has a great record it was easier for the fans to stick by him, and this came after one of their greatest seasons in decades. Now if Ole loses few games in a row, the knives will be out from everywhere, including the dressing room, and you can't blame people for that. He needs to earn the reputation of being a top manager who can lead a club like united to success.
Think of last season with Klopp, now any other manager would've been sacked following that horrible run, but because he has a great record it was easier for the fans to stick by him, and this came after one of their greatest seasons in decades. Now if Ole loses few games in a row, the knives will be out from everywhere, including the dressing room, and you can't blame people for that. He needs to earn the reputation of being a top manager who can lead a club like united to success.
Ole is an important part of MUFC's history, the club is not going to sack him in the middle of the season unless the team collapses and I don't see him quitting either.
So I say go for Leonardo Jardim in the end of this season. He's one of the best managers in the world.
My other bet is Paulo Fonseca. He's young, free and has a bright future ahead.
Zidane is worth considering too, he won 3 UCL with CR7 in Madrid and he's also available.
Spoilt for choice.
So I say go for Leonardo Jardim in the end of this season. He's one of the best managers in the world.
My other bet is Paulo Fonseca. He's young, free and has a bright future ahead.
Zidane is worth considering too, he won 3 UCL with CR7 in Madrid and he's also available.
Spoilt for choice.
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Ha, sorry, I was mid-argument and thought you were about to jump in too.
Gary himself said it well, we are not a great team, as in team performance. I would agree. Chelsea are the better team, and over the course of the season, they will amass the most points. We will drop too many the way we play. It isn't sustainable, not when you have Chelsea, Liverpool and City as your opponents, quite simple.
That will reemerge across the season and in the CL. This team well coached, and we would have a good chance.
That will reemerge across the season and in the CL. This team well coached, and we would have a good chance.
Gary Neville who fancied Kane to give us a better chance at the league than Ronaldo.
I swear this thread is ridiculous.
On a day when Ole was vindicated in his persistence with Lingard in the most dramatic of wins making most here look completely foolish you still have posters bleating on about patterns of play.
Embarrassing. Just enjoy the win.
I have nothing negatively to do with Lingard, hence not making me look foolish.
But our lack of coaching wont go away, even if you wish so.
The lack of coaching in your perception will be going nowhere yes so long as we keep getting results like today.
I have my doubts about certain aspects as most here do I suspect. But sod worrying about it on a day like today.
Just win, baby.
I can only talk about by stance about that but I am pretty sure, that many would agree: I don't want us to shift completely away from that individual approach. Lets say it is a balance where on one hand you have total individualism (Brazil 1974 (don't know a better example, not even sure they are a good one) and you have total collectivism (LVG's United) on the other hand, then I am totally fine to not just stay in the middle but be tending heavily towards individualism. It would just be good to have at least a bit of the other stuff available for some situations. And our slow builtup causes us more problems than it solves, so there would be a need right there.
I can't find the interview anymore but there was one of Johan Cruijff talking about how his Barca played and how Laudrup would do his "individual thing" ( Cruijff's words) and how it would eventually end up where it is supposed to end up. Individual brilliance along with the team play. Our defence and midfield is where I have most problems with. They do not seem to know how to create or move the ball intelligently. Maybe with the arrival of Varane it may improve but I personally do not think AWB, Fred and McTominay has the ability to do so at the top level.
Yeah, I guess you are right, I have the same concerns. I think, we can find a way to get something to work with AWB, something along the lines of AWB staying back more while one from CM steps up. I don't know, I am sure there is a way. I mean you don't have to be symetrical all the time, Fergies 07/08 squad made it work with Wes Brown on the right side, a CB. It freed up Evra on the left same at Barcelona with Abidal and Dani Alves. It is possible but you have to be imaginative need your players stick to some plans. We also have Dalot who should get a last fair shot at the club.
About Fred and McTominay, I think, everything about them has been said. They can be upgraded of course, but I am kind of adamant, that we should stick with them to be the block or foundation, our attack can built on from with less responsibility to work back. Of course that will create issues along the road especially against the better sides who will act to exploit that, but I think it is worth it. Both at least provide stability, Freds passing is progressive (he is pretty erratic these days though) but he tries to move himself and especially the ball the quick and forward. McTominays way of progressing the ball are driving runs, also not bad. I wouldn't waste my time thinking about Pogba in the double pivot. Matic can be an option from the bench on some occasions. Before using them for the uptenthtime again, I would rather go with an actual three man midfield, that doesn't contain Bruno. Something like DVB and McFred or McFred slightly in front of Matic who can anker (little like Pirlo who was screened by Pogba and Vidal). Somebody mentioned an interesting idea to use Bruno as a false 9 and have Ronaldo starting more from the left as an option. Why not.
I would stick with that for a while, maybe try Donny for Fred or McTom, see what we got but I think, it is more important to bring the offensive up to speed. With Pogba left, I think, we should be able to create enough chances in most matches and as soon as Rashford is there, we can switch between combinations Pogba, Sancho, Greenwood and Rash depending on the opponent. I hope Rashford and Cavani will provide some workrate up front to also provide good alternatives for matches, the outlook is quite good so far.
I posted this in the post match thread but feel its more relevant here - obvious it seems but its so frustrating:
There's definitely something not quite right with our coaching - as soon as they scored, we transformed into a proper energized, attacking team, we then score and the foot goes off the gas and we turn into a team full of strangers again. Its like we're coached to play a certain way, but when the opposition scores its a wake up call and we panic but start to play free flowing attacking football like its our natural way of playing. Its very frustrating - i love Ole but we now need someone to take us to the next level, like Tuchel has done with Chelsea..
There's definitely something not quite right with our coaching - as soon as they scored, we transformed into a proper energized, attacking team, we then score and the foot goes off the gas and we turn into a team full of strangers again. Its like we're coached to play a certain way, but when the opposition scores its a wake up call and we panic but start to play free flowing attacking football like its our natural way of playing. Its very frustrating - i love Ole but we now need someone to take us to the next level, like Tuchel has done with Chelsea..
Well, let's see.
League finishes since Fergie retired up until Ole arrived:
7th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 2nd, 6th.
Now, please tell me, which one is the outlier here please?
EDIT - the two players I've boldened in your quoted reply were not here when Ole started his first full season and didn't play with Maguire and AWB.
You're analysis also ignores the fact that Ole went into that first full season having to rely on Pereira and Lingard for the first 6 months and had to forego a replacement for his most influential midfielder who left in Herrera. Instead he made do with the players he had and improved the borderline joke figure that was Fred and also made sure that Scott McTominay was not seen as a cynical Jose "product", but instead as a bonafide and legitimate Manchester United player.
It also ignores that under Ole Rashford, Shaw, Pogba and Martial all had the best seasons of their careers under Ole. He got a tune out of them that no one else did before him. So rather than just throw the chequebook at the problem like his detractors say he does, he's also improved the team by both improving some of those who were already here, and also bringing through the youth in Greenwood. That's not to say he hasn't bought players for a big outlay, he obviously has, but all have followed a plan (other than Ronaldo and probably Cavani) and he's gradually bought them in to supplement the team's progress. Signs of a properly built team predicated on a proper strategy. Something we haven't had for a long time, when LvG and Jose were too busy reacting to the situation rather than diagnosing the problem and looking to solve the issues at the root.
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To be honest, Jose's 3rd season was a massive sabotage from him and he severely underachieved that 1st league campaign.
I think our performance vs West Ham was encouraging. Atkinson/VAR made that result much closer than it should have been.
I think our defending once we lose the ball high up the field needs to be better. Ole alluded to it as well. We need to be more compact. Hopefully we see an improvement.
I think our defending once we lose the ball high up the field needs to be better. Ole alluded to it as well. We need to be more compact. Hopefully we see an improvement.
He did. But the point of my post was that we hadn't sustained top 4 football. The arsenal fan my original post was in response to was saying that Ole is the perfect manager to lower standards but my point was that those standards had already been lowered before he came. If anything Ole has course corrected the club and we're now looking up and not over our shoulders.
Fair points.