We are an awfully coached team

meamth said:
Weird because I always see the pattern.
  • The LB>LW>CM triangles, most of the times we can see them playing fast combination of passing to attack.
  • The combination of Bruno>Rashford>Martial, haven't clicked this season, but seen in the past it can hurt teams.
  • The combination of AWB>Fred>Mata/Greenwood,
  • Fred pressing the midfield while Matic/McT covering the defense.
  • When things go bad, Bruno picks the ball from deep and try to deliver long through pass.
  • Martial holds the ball, pass it to Bruno and Rashford/Mata opens up the wings.
  • Absorb the pressure, Matic/Fred/McT wins the ball and release it to Rashford/Martial.
  • Quick direct passing.
None of this clicked yet this season, I don't know why, but when we're on the stride, we can hurt teams.
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I guess we don't understand the word to the same level. For instance, absorbing the pressure and passing to Martial/Rashford is basic football, I wouldn't even call that a pattern.
Your first point is close to what I mean, the rest is not good enough for me. It's too basic
 
big rons sovereign said:
You're not saying anything new, just spouting the same mindless guff that everybody else is.
I'm not up oles arse nor am I happy with how things are. Am I gonna start kissing the arse of another teams coach? Am I Bollox, especially not the vermin's.
I couldn't give a toss how well they're doing.
Football goes in cycles (except for Spain) and it's our turn in the wilderness. Sacking the manager now would be catastrophic IMO, they'll just bring poch in, tell him he's got all the backing, then shit all over him in the summer.
And next November we'll be here having the same argument.
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Give it a rest top red lad, pointing how a good coach stamps his influence on good players is hardly kissing his arse, whether that is Klopp, Pep or even Frank Lampard. And don't start that cycle bollocks nobody said that Ole should be sacked at this moment but does that mean we can't point out the fecking obvious?
 
kouroux said:
I guess we don't understand the word to the same level. For instance, absorbing the pressure and passing to Martial/Rashford is basic football, I wouldn't even call that a pattern.
Your first point is close to what I mean, the rest is not good enough for me. It's too basic
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That is the pattern, give it to your flair players, instead of hoofing the ball upwards (Mourinho), or pass it back to De Gea (LVG), time and time again, Ole's united is more determined to hurt teams on the fast breaks.

Because lets be honest, that's what United are famous for. Ronaldo, Rooney fast breaks/Giggsy, Beckham, Ruud.
 
meamth said:
That is the pattern, give it to your flair players, instead of hoofing the ball upwards (Mourinho), or pass it back to De Gea (LVG), time and time again, Ole's united is more determined to hurt teams on the fast breaks.
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I did say "good" pattern of play tbh. Giving it to the flair players and basically hoping they pull off something magical on their own doesn't cut it most games sadly.
 
meamth said:
Ole's united is more determined to hurt teams on the fast breaks.

Because lets be honest, that's what United are famous for. Ronaldo, Rooney fast breaks/Giggsy, Beckham, Ruud.
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This is true but my concern is that this doesn’t work in all matches. When it does, it’s a joy to watch and I’m not expecting us to be able to do it in every match but what are we doing with teams that drop back deep and sit tight? We’ve seen it so often and my question is, what has changed with how we deal with that in 2 years?
 
Plymouth Red said:
Promoting coaches internally and bringing back familiar faces to oversee the team makes sense if you want to perpetuate a format and approach.

However, it deprives you of new thinking and it places you at risk of ‘familiarity breeding contempt’.

Strikes me that we suffer from wishing to hold on to the past too much instead of starting anew.

The shadow of Matt Busby weighed heavily on the managers that followed him and it’s not outlandish to suggest that SAF’s presence might be having a similar effect.
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I have been saying for ages about the coaching staff. Ole has to create his own legacy, not try to replicate SAF's. He needs as you say somebody with new ideas not all sitting there thinking 'What would Sir Alex do in this situation'?
 
RedRob said:
"Give it to the flair players and hope something happens."

We might as well say, "Hope we get an obscene number of penalties."

Oh wait. That's Plan B.
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It's always like that for big teams.

Give it to Messi, Ronaldo, Robben, Scholes, Zidane....etc.

We can rely on Rashford/Martial/Bruno/Pogba, but the consistency is lacking at the moment. Once they clicked and in form, we can see us winning more games comfortably. That's why I said, we're lacking form at the moment, that's why we look clueless.
 
Kostov said:
Give it a rest top red lad, pointing how a good coach stamps his influence on good players is hardly kissing his arse, whether that is Klopp, Pep or even Frank Lampard. And don't start that cycle bollocks nobody said that Ole should be sacked at this moment but does that mean we can't point out the fecking obvious?
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And there it is. "top red"
Pathetic.
 
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kouroux said:
I guess we don't understand the word to the same level. For instance, absorbing the pressure and passing to Martial/Rashford is basic football, I wouldn't even call that a pattern.
Your first point is close to what I mean, the rest is not good enough for me. It's too basic
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You mean like this?

 
Isn't the reason 'flair' players usually cost more and are in more demand because they create?

What would be the point of buying players like this if the system/pattern of play does it all?

Why don't teams with shit players just spend all their money hiring the best manager with a pattern of play instead of buying new players?

Despite Pep's system and pattern of play why does he feel the need to keep buying players?

I'm sure if United were to be successful this season in any way half of this place won't be celebrating because it still won't be good enough.
 
meamth said:
That is the pattern, give it to your flair players, instead of hoofing the ball upwards (Mourinho), or pass it back to De Gea (LVG), time and time again, Ole's united is more determined to hurt teams on the fast breaks.

Because lets be honest, that's what United are famous for. Ronaldo, Rooney fast breaks/Giggsy, Beckham, Ruud.
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To be fair, we were actually able to pass the ball with intent and efficiency far better than we are currently doing around 2000-2007ish. Especially against lesser teams. And this was at a time when the focus on possession, passing patterns etc were not one of the main focuses of tactical approaches.
 
kouroux said:
I guess we don't understand the word to the same level. For instance, absorbing the pressure and passing to Martial/Rashford is basic football, I wouldn't even call that a pattern.
Your first point is close to what I mean, the rest is not good enough for me. It's too basic
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We have "patterns", but if this is down to previous knowledge from the managers, the players prefered actions or the input from the manager is difficult to conclude. What is easy to conclude is that the "patterns" does not include many players or continued into other areas of the pitch. Usually it is the LB, LCB, LCM and LW that tries to progress the ball while the rest of the team is not involved. And, usually, when we try to progress down the left side, the opposition shifts towards this side, but we are not able/aware of/instructed to take advantage of the space on the right side with AWB. And it all ends with a pass back to the centreback, a throw in or a high risk pass/dribble forwards into a congested area.

When the opposition shifts their players towards our side to create a numerical advantage and congest the space, we got a potential numerical advantage on the other side. Similar potential advantages are all around the pitch, either in the progression of the ball or in the final third. The problem is that there is no cohesive understanding among the players on how to take advantage of this, and in some cases a lack of ability/consistency when it comes to moving the ball. This is somewhat down to the understanding of the players/team and somewhat down to a lack of coaching that creates this understanding in the players.
 
kouroux said:
I guess we don't understand the word to the same level. For instance, absorbing the pressure and passing to Martial/Rashford is basic football, I wouldn't even call that a pattern.
Your first point is close to what I mean, the rest is not good enough for me. It's too basic
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What pattern do you want to see?

I want you to show Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Spurs & Arsenal pattern to make others understand what is this pattern you are talking about.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
What pattern do you want to see?

I want you to show Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Spurs & Arsenal pattern to make others understand what is this pattern you are talking about.
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It is difficult to discern particular patterns that encompass the whole team, but one can see that a team got an idea on how to attack when the players are efficient on the ball. That is, they know what they should do with it; pass, dribble, move etc.
Not including City against Spurs, but City usually is very efficient on the ball. They pass with intent. They move into spaces and create spaces with intent. Again, City against Spurs was not a display of this, most likely down to Guardiola failing with his approach or lack thereof and some players not being particularly intelligent or competent in their approach (Torres and Jesus in particular).

Given that most of our players look unsure on the ball, except Bruno, there is a lack of understanding among the players and in the team on what they should do in each situation. This is most likely a combination in lack of coaching/drilling/instruction on how to play and what to do in certain situations and lack of mutual understanding among the players, which again is something that can be coached/drilled.
 
Fosu-Mens said:
It is difficult to discern particular patterns that encompass the whole team, but one can see that a team got an idea on how to attack when the players are efficient on the ball. That is, they know what they should do with it; pass, dribble, move etc.
Not including City against Spurs, but City usually is very efficient on the ball. They pass with intent. They move into spaces and create spaces with intent. Again, City against Spurs was not a display of this, most likely down to Guardiola failing with his approach or lack thereof and some players not being particularly intelligent or competent in their approach (Torres and Jesus in particular).

Given that most of our players look unsure on the ball, except Bruno, there is a lack of understanding among the players and in the team on what they should do in each situation. This is most likely a combination in lack of coaching/drilling/instruction on how to play and what to do in certain situations and lack of mutual understanding among the players, which again is something that can be coached/drilled.
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Again, are we talking about that kind of pattern? I am too lazy to retrieve all the other analysis but we do have very clear instructions in our play. Just because it doesn't always click doesn't mean we don't, right? Because when it clicks, it does very well.

 
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'Tactical analysis' always involve these circles that somehow make patterns that exist even when Jose and LvG was here.

Hell, you can even rewatch some of the games under Moyes, pause the video and begin circling and it creates a pattern. All I'm saying it's kinda weird to use 'pattern' as a factor to judge a manager on. Tactical decisions and adaptability to make subs that impact the game during a live match seem more fair to me. That's how you differentiate a good manager than a great one.

Not putting a formation and insha allah.
 
Snow said:
Those are the worst examples you can make. As soon as ref blows for kick-off there's not much a manager can do.
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Don't agree! It's no coincidence the majority of the best managers in the last decade operate from the touchline. Can't see the point in sitting in the stands looking at replays on a computer screen tbh. Something wrong if a manager engaging with his players from the touchline has no effect. Do you really believe Pep, Klopp, Simeone (all top managers) have no influence on the players and that their teams would perform just as good if they sat in the stands?
 
Just watched some highlights from the 12/13 season, holy damn we crossed the ball much. I think Evra scored 4 headers himself from just corners.

I firmly believe that crossing is easy to do but difficult to master. Under Ferguson, we were the crossing Gods, it would be nice to see us do it successfully again.

These days our corners usually hit the first defender, or it reaches Maguire who 95% of the time can't get it on target. Or we have AWB or Shaw on the flanks who can't cross to save their lives.


Our game vs Everton had some crosses though, Shaws cross to Bruno and the cross from Bruno to Rsshford (which Rashford missed). When crossing is done right it can be lethal, and it's sad we rarely see that anymore from United. It would be another way to open up compact defenses.
 
tenpoless said:
Tactical analysis always involve these circles that somehow make patterns that exist even when Jose and LvG was here.

Hell, you can even rewatch some of the games under Moyes, pause the video and begin circling and it creates a pattern. All I'm saying it's kinda weird to use 'pattern' as a factor to judge a manager on. Tactical decisions and adaptability to make subs during a live match seem more fair to me. That's how you differentiate a good manager than a great one.

Not putting a formation and insha allah.
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I agree. The term "pattern" itself is a weird one, and that obsession for it even weirder. But it's a fallacy to not being able to recognize how we play and how we have improved a lot in term of combination and will to create chances. Very strange to not being able to notice that.

I can agree or disagree on the importance of tactics, but again, I think people are forgetting the intangible part. Even though Ole is currently very versatile, it's not always good to change that much shape, it creates a consistency issue with the team in term of instructions. It's OK, we seem to have been forced to do it throughout last season and this season due to injuries, but it's not sustainable. What we need is to have players not injured, and therefore a system a bit more consistent, and then again, the ability to have that energy level super high.
 
bondsname said:
Just watched some highlights from the 12/13 season, holy damn we crossed the ball much. I think Evra scored 4 headers himself from just corners.

I firmly believe that crossing is easy to do but difficult to master. Under Ferguson, we were the crossing Gods, it would be nice to see us do it successfully again.

These days our corners usually hit the first defender, or it reaches Maguire who 95% of the time can't get it on target. Or we have AWB or Shaw on the flanks who can't cross to save their lives.


Our game vs Everton had some crosses though, Shaws cross to Bruno and the cross from Bruno to Rsshford (which Rashford missed). When crossing is done right it can be lethal, and it's sad we rarely see that anymore from United. It would be another way to open up compact defenses.
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Even after Beckam left, our crosses have not been that good.

Continental football doesn't cross that often, because it is believed to be too random. It can be done, only not always.

We are now trying to force our players to cross a bit more, but we clearly have a preference to pass the ball through in the box to put ourselves in position to shoot. This is normally more rewarding in term of accuracy. I for one welcome that kind of play, I think it is much more sustainable. We are not ignoring crosses. But again, crossing is too random.
 
Gasolin said:
Again, are we talking about that kind of pattern? I am too lazy to retrieve all the other analysis but we do have very clear instructions in our play. Just because it doesn't always click doesn't mean we don't, right? Because when it clicks, it does very well.

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I saw your post earlier and I'm not saying that this can't be called a pattern, but when this does not encompass an efficent movement of the ball to the right side, then it does not help much. I posted this earlier:
Fosu-Mens said:
We have "patterns", but if this is down to previous knowledge from the managers, the players prefered actions or the input from the manager is difficult to conclude. What is easy to conclude is that the "patterns" does not include many players or continued into other areas of the pitch. Usually it is the LB, LCB, LCM and LW that tries to progress the ball while the rest of the team is not involved. And, usually, when we try to progress down the left side, the opposition shifts towards this side, but we are not able/aware of/instructed to take advantage of the space on the right side with AWB. And it all ends with a pass back to the centreback, a throw in or a high risk pass/dribble forwards into a congested area.

When the opposition shifts their players towards our side to create a numerical advantage and congest the space, we got a potential numerical advantage on the other side. Similar potential advantages are all around the pitch, either in the progression of the ball or in the final third. The problem is that there is no cohesive understanding among the players on how to take advantage of this, and in some cases a lack of ability/consistency when it comes to moving the ball. This is somewhat down to the understanding of the players/team and somewhat down to a lack of coaching that creates this understanding in the players.
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We have mainly tried to progress the ball down the left side for 7/8 years. That we have 3/4 players that can pass together on one side of the pitch does not help much when we are not taking advantage of the spaces that are created from this particular way of focusing the progression of the ball. The same was the case when we had Bruno and PP at the end of the last season. We progressed the ball through the middle of the pitch, and when the opposition started to crowd the space around Bruno and PP we were not able to take advantage of the space available on the sides. It is like we have Plan A, but never a plan B or C, or a continuation of plan A. Or we have those plans or continuations, but our players are unable to execute them, like not being able to pass to AWB in your example or not seeing him.
 
Fosu-Mens said:
I saw your post earlier and I'm not saying that this can't be called a pattern, but when this does not encompass an efficent movement of the ball to the right side, then it does not help much. I posted this earlier:


We have mainly tried to progress the ball down the left side for 7/8 years. That we have 3/4 players that can pass together on one side of the pitch does not help much when we are not taking advantage of the spaces that are created from this particular way of focusing the progression of the ball. The same was the case when we had Bruno and PP at the end of the last season. We progressed the ball through the middle of the pitch, and when the opposition started to crowd the space around Bruno and PP we were not able to take advantage of the space available on the sides. It is like we have Plan A, but never a plan B or C, or a continuation of plan A. Or we have those plans or continuations, but our players are unable to execute them, like not being able to pass to AWB in your example or not seeing him.
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Ok now we're making progress. We have patterns, but they are "inefficient" is what I am hearing.

What about those then? Do they seem to provide multiple ways to attack and not just one plan A or?
Same game btw.



The overloading and switching play is something we do btw. But again, why do you think we still want someone on the RW? It's because he can help us a bit more on that side for the transition part.

Btw, I am not saying we are perfect. But what we see from Ole this season is that we are trying to play a much more expansive football, and it comes at a cost. It seems that it's taking time to click together, but it will click. When it does, it will be a much more interesting, and tangible, conversation. Should be a matter of time really. Plus, we have a really short season that is going to take a toll on every team. But we should get better soon.
 
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Nothing will convince some that we are not a really well coached team, except a Mourinho type season I guess. They so strongly believe that people who are critical don't watch or aren't "real" fans.
 
Gasolin said:
Again, are we talking about that kind of pattern? I am too lazy to retrieve all the other analysis but we do have very clear instructions in our play. Just because it doesn't always click doesn't mean we don't, right? Because when it clicks, it does very well.

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That post literally just described a failed passage of play (fullback overlap scenario) and concluded it by saying it was the players that failed to spot the pattern. What a flimsy writeup. If we're to even accept the premise that the pattern was there but the players just didn't realise it how does that further Ole's case? It's still a failure in implementing one. The move broke down in only the first phase.

It's also not uncommon to see Bruno opt for the diagonal rather than spread the ball out to AWB for a number of reasons, one of which is his awareness of AWB's inconsistent delivery. The guy wrote a whole thesis on a basic fullback overlap
 
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Carl said:
Honestly though, this post could have been made at any point over the last 7 or 8 years. Its practically an evergreen post.
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It could have been made with the Fergie team that was schooled by Bilbao a while ago.
If Ole is a bad coach then so is LVG and Jose and I judge that on what I have seen at our club.
 
Volumiza said:
This is true but my concern is that this doesn’t work in all matches. When it does, it’s a joy to watch and I’m not expecting us to be able to do it in every match but what are we doing with teams that drop back deep and sit tight? We’ve seen it so often and my question is, what has changed with how we deal with that in 2 years?
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City struggled massively to break down Tottenham and instead went hoofball at times. Breaking down a compact defense also requires your players to pull off something out of the ordinary.

Liverpool have brilliant crossers in Robertson and TAA. It wouldn’t work as well with inferior attacking fullbacks.

city have Silva, Sterling and KDB to break down teams with their passing, dribbling and movement. When they are off their game, they too struggle.

Rashford and Martial are clearly off their game, and thus United struggle. Toss Pogba into that mix, and our midfield also struggles.

Every team is dependent on their teams no matter their coaching or system.
 
Greck said:
That post literally just described a failed passage of play (fullback overlap scenario) and concluded it by saying it was the players that failed to spot the pattern. What a flimsy writeup. If we're to even accept the premise that the pattern was there but the players just didn't realise it how does that further Ole's case? It's still a failure in implementing one. The move broke down in only the first phase.

It's also not uncommon to see Bruno opt for the diagonal rather than spread the ball out to AWB for a number of reasons, one of which is his awareness of AWB's inconsistent delivery. The guy wrote a whole thesis on a basic fullback overlap
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What a strange take. Bruno is not a robot, he can fail to see AWB, and not because he doesn't want to pass to him. The point is that we need the team to pass to AWB at least sometimes, because regardless of his ability (which is OK as long as he doesn't transition, in fact, and is already in attacking position), it forces the full back to pay attention to AWB and in return, create space in a future opportunity for us.

And AWB pushes forward a lot. And him receiving the ball allows us to create space elsewhere on the pitch, naturally. Not every action leads to a successful shots on goal, yet, it still doesn't mean the pattern is not there, or whatever fancy term people want to use.
 
kouroux said:
I never said I don't see patterns btw so you've misunderstood me. Not once did I say that.
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Apologies, I saw the below and thought you said there was no identifiable good pattern.
Of course, all the analysis I put in different posts are positive patterns for me, that goes without saying.

kouroux said:
This is they key for me too. We have no idea what goes on during training sessions (these days, there isn't even time to do proper coaching tbh, they play every 3 days). I guess the bland football we often see from Man Utd makes us wonder about these things. The lack of easily identifiable good pattern of plays is what frustrates me personally.
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Gasolin said:
Apologies, I saw the below and thought you said there was no identifiable good pattern.
Of course, all the analysis I put in different posts are positive patterns for me, that goes without saying.
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No worries. All in all, we just wanna enjoy the games tbh. How we phrase things and how we see them don't matter much. We know there is room for improvement
 
The main thing missing and why we struggle to break down teams is the quality of crossing/balls into the box coupled with lack of anyone actually making a run into the box to receive said balls I suspect that is something of a vicious circle though.

Hopefully we can start working the ball to telles in space and get runners into the box for the ball, it gives us another option because let's be honest rashford/shaw/awb/greenwood even mata are not very good a putting quality crosses in.

We actually work the ball into to some good positions but so often the final ball is poor or it doesn't come at all and ends up getting worked back out the dangerous position.

Its lack of quality more than coaching in my eyes, we desperately need a right sided player or can whip good balls in aswell.
 
Longshanks said:
The main thing missing and why we struggle to break down teams is the quality of crossing/balls into the box coupled with lack of anyone actually making a run into the box to receive said balls I suspect that is something of a vicious circle though.

Hopefully we can start working the ball to telles in space and get runners into the box for the ball, it gives us another option because let's be honest rashford/shaw/awb/greenwood even mata are not very good a putting quality crosses in.

We actually work the ball into to some good positions but so often the final ball is poor or it doesn't come at all and ends up getting worked back out the dangerous position.

Its lack of quality more than coaching in my eyes, we desperately need a right sided player or can whip good balls in aswell.
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All our problems stem from poor recruitment right from the top.
Glazers- foreign owners with little link to what’s actually going on on the ground making our major recruitment decisions who are learning on the job. the buck stops with them. They’ve hired Ed and failed to fully back 4 managers now since Fergie. They expect new managers to make do with our constant contract and transfer mistakes and somehow get a top class team out of it. If the owners stopped meddling and left the football side alone I’m sure we’d have a better team and a more settled dressing room by now.
 
Longshanks said:
The main thing missing and why we struggle to break down teams is the quality of crossing/balls into the box coupled with lack of anyone actually making a run into the box to receive said balls I suspect that is something of a vicious circle though.

Hopefully we can start working the ball to telles in space and get runners into the box for the ball, it gives us another option because let's be honest rashford/shaw/awb/greenwood even mata are not very good a putting quality crosses in.

We actually work the ball into to some good positions but so often the final ball is poor or it doesn't come at all and ends up getting worked back out the dangerous position.

Its lack of quality more than coaching in my eyes, we desperately need a right sided player or can whip good balls in aswell.
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I agree with this. In my opinion, Rashford and Martial are dropping deep and there is no clear understanding when to cross (Telles) and when to make a run (forwards). Mata does that, but that's the only thing he does. Definitely need to work on that.
 
meamth said:
Weird because I always see the pattern.
  • The LB>LW>CM triangles, most of the times we can see them playing fast combination of passing to attack.
  • The combination of Bruno>Rashford>Martial, haven't clicked this season, but seen in the past it can hurt teams.
  • The combination of AWB>Fred>Mata/Greenwood,
  • Fred pressing the midfield while Matic/McT covering the defense.
  • When things go bad, Bruno picks the ball from deep and try to deliver long through pass.
  • Martial holds the ball, pass it to Bruno and Rashford/Mata opens up the wings.
  • Absorb the pressure, Matic/Fred/McT wins the ball and release it to Rashford/Martial.
  • Quick direct passing.
None of this clicked yet this season, I don't know why, but when we're on the stride, we can hurt teams.
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Maybe it's so obvious that teams position themselves so we can't do these patterns you've listed, Ole doesn't change tactics and he's been found out, our only good performances mainly come from teams attacking us leaving space to counter which I think we are brilliant at it when it pays off.
 
bondsname said:
Just watched some highlights from the 12/13 season, holy damn we crossed the ball much. I think Evra scored 4 headers himself from just corners.

I firmly believe that crossing is easy to do but difficult to master. Under Ferguson, we were the crossing Gods, it would be nice to see us do it successfully again.

These days our corners usually hit the first defender, or it reaches Maguire who 95% of the time can't get it on target. Or we have AWB or Shaw on the flanks who can't cross to save their lives.


Our game vs Everton had some crosses though, Shaws cross to Bruno and the cross from Bruno to Rsshford (which Rashford missed). When crossing is done right it can be lethal, and it's sad we rarely see that anymore from United. It would be another way to open up compact defenses.
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People laugh at that Fulham game under Moyes where we crossed about 200 times, but I kind of feel at least there was a plan on how we might actually end up scoring a goal in that game, and we actually put effort into trying to score a goal. Watching the Istanbul game the other week it genuinely looked like the players didn't know what they were supposed to be doing. There didn't look to be any cohesive idea as to how they wanted to create a chance to score, that was far more embarassing.
 
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