Why do you have to start again as long as get an upgrade that suits the squad of players we have? That is were we have gone wrong in the past.
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
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How can you not doubt him when you see the decisions he makes and the results of those decisions?
When AWB saw red the other night I thought it was a no brainer, Ronaldo should have been off not Sancho.Then bringing on Varane for DVdB?
Daft .
Sticking Lingard in for Fred? Daft. And that’s just one game.
Tell me who. We are 4 games into a new season so a lot of managers are a bit busy right now. If we were going to replace him then the time has been and gone now. The season has started and he's got a new contract.
Time to pull your big boy pants on and get behind him. We are top of the league. Enjoy it.
Top after 4 games means nothing.
He could have done all those things and we'd have still been up against it. When you play away in the CL it's not easy. When you play away with ten men it's incredibly hard.
Did you see the Chelsea Westbrom game in April. Chelsea lost 5-2 at home to relegated team. Why? They had Thiago Silva sent off in first half.
Football is like that at times. If the opposition play the extra man well by pressing and stretching the play it's virtually impossible to stop.
Well, two things, focusing on the bolded...
Firstly, league finishes aren't the only thing that matters. Ole hasn't won anything yet, whereas Mourinho did (and I hated that guy). Nor has he reached Mourinho's highest points tally yet. This is not to say that Mourinho was better or to go on a dick measuring contest between the two. But it's fair to say that apart from the squad rebuild, Ole hasn't achieved anything spectacular yet and the jury is still out on whether he is the man who can take us to the next level of winning major trophies.
Secondly, you don't have to start again if you sack a manager. Chelsea disprove that theory every 2nd year. It's majorly outdated to think so.
I don't want him sacked. Not now anyway, it's the start of a new season and we're at the top ffs. But he needs to show he can take this team to the next level of delivering trophies. The investment in the squad during his tenure has been huge. It's fair to say that we have an elite squad now. Ole will very soon have to prove that he can rise to being an elite manager himself. He'll need to in order deliver titles, you can't fluke your way to them.
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Doesn't mean we will win the league, no, but if you sacked a manager after 4 games when they are top of the PL it doesn't look good does it?
What is the message being sent there?
The over reaction to Tuesday has been staggering. It's like you've never seen a game of football before where a team has a man sent off. We never lose that game 11v11. Never.
It would be amazing. I think posters should sign up to be banned if he wins the league.
It'd only be fair if anyone who doesn't sign up to that gets banned if we drop out of the top 4.
Football is not all about PL, you know? There are CL, cups and super cups. You can win something of that. But again there you can play against mighty Villareal and Basaksehir. Can't beat that with this squad.
If other side will sign up if we finish without trophy this year. Do we have a bet?
Who is to say we won't?
Villarreal beat us on pens. It was disappointing of course but penalties are a lottery. We didn't get outplayed did we?
There's been improvement each season and the squad continues to get better.
Such things are difficult to understand, same as that it seems a bit weird to me, that us being top of the table last January doesn't meant we should have mounted a more courageous title challenge while us being top of the table after 4 matches this year means that that people who criticize are mostly weird and impatient.
In case you want to come back with something, please do not come up with the "we came 3rd and 2nd"-line, I know you seemingly have it on copy-paste today based on how often I read it in the last hours. I am sure, you will find more arguments than that.
About the rest of the debate: I am personally against even thinking of sacking the manager if you have no idea how to replace him. The recent past has shown, that we can get a way worse manager. We do not want to redo old mistakes by being guided by emotional reactions.
However, somebody asked a pretty reasonable question - if we are still unsure if the current manager is able to bring us to the next level, why not try to find somebody who could? I know, this sentiment doesn't bode well and I don't like this pragmatic way of thinking as well but at such a level a certain extent of pragmatism and ruthlessness is essential. It is good to have faith, but it should turn to blind faith. Dragging things out can have just as many negative consequences.
I hope the few calls for imminent sacking die out, they are just creating a bad atmosphere that will not do anything that isn't bad. But I also hope, the calls to be more reasonable to each other are taken to the heart by some of the very enthusiastic supporters as well.
Edit: I am not a native speaker, I understood calling someone a weapon would be more on the light banter side of things. I had no intention of insulting the other poster, excuse me in case you initially thought differently.
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People are focusing too much on the game against Young Boys. That result has certainly provoked an increase in criticism but the specific things we're criticising have been present in more games than that, including games we won. Even in the Wolves and Newcastle games you could point to elements of our play directly related to how we're coached that are sub-par, so it's not just a reaction to a bad result.
But of course if people point that out after a win rather than a defeat the counter-argument just switches from "you're just overreacting to a defeat and jumping on the manager" to "you're spoiled and complaining even when we win". Meanwhile the underlying issues rumble on regardless of the most recent result.
But of course if people point that out after a win rather than a defeat the counter-argument just switches from "you're just overreacting to a defeat and jumping on the manager" to "you're spoiled and complaining even when we win". Meanwhile the underlying issues rumble on regardless of the most recent result.
Look at this attitude...... almost like you want us to lose to be proven right.
Wouldn't know the meaning of supporter mate.
Well put
No point in this. Some people are fans of individuals and not the club.
Yeah, right. Nice logic.
Ok, lets do it like this. If we win title, i will stay away from his thread and (gladly) leave last post that i was so wrong about him. If we finish without trophy, you do the same.
I am sorry, I edited the post. Had no intention of insulting somebody.Criticise the post, not the person
Whoa!! Don't even bring up Villareal. Ole literally froze like a deer in headlights and could not make up his mind to what changes he could do for feckin 100 minutes. Despite us mustering a grand 2 shots on target or something. The game was lost there.
Yeah, right. Nice logic.
Ok, lets do it like this. If we win title, i will stay away from his thread and (gladly) leave last post that i was so wrong about him. If we finish without trophy, you do the same.
If we come 2nd by a few PTS and challenge for the title I wouldn't see that as failure.
This season I DO want us to challenge all the way. Winning it can't be guaranteed with anyone at the helm I hate to break it to you.
3 of Klopp, Pep, Tuchel and Ole are going to fail to win it this season ultimately.
Bayer Leverkusen knocked us out once under Fergie. So did Porto. So did Dortmund.
Athletic Bilbao knocked us out of Europa under Fergie. Bielsa masterclass it was called.
How did that happen under the greatest manager of all time. It's called football.
I see this point a lot in these discussions and it's deeply disingeneous. You know full well that people aren't criticizing Ole over the Young Boys game alone. And even in that game, people are not just criticizing that the game was lost, or even just the bit after the red card.
People see United's performance in that game (also the first part) and Ole's in-game tactical decisions as typical of Ole's tenure as United's manager, and as proof that there continues to be an underlying issue with his work that has not changed and will continue to hold United back.
You can disagree with that, of course, but at least discuss the actual arguments rather than a straw man you (and others) put up.
If you're gonna compare managers on their lows, you'll have to compare them on their highs too. Something tells me this isn't as favourable as you might think it is.
Indeed. If there is blame, then the one's most responsible are those who run the club and decide who to hire.
Unfortunately, owners tend to come and go a lot less than managers...
Well nobody is saying he's on a par with Fergie. Nobody is. That's not the point of that comment and you know it. It's showing that the best team quite often in football doesn't win. If they did always win we wouldn't watch it in the numbers we do.
Villarreal knew they had the weaker team so they had a game plan of sitting deep and giving up the ball. It's a gameplay that has worked a lot for us against City in previous seasons. It was hardly masterful tactics but it can be effective.
It's more than that. It's like @sullydnl said. If you criticise the performance on a defeat, then you'll be told you're overreacting or waiting (hoping even) for a defeat to criticise the manager. You're not a "true supporter". Tut, tut, tut. But if you criticise the performance on a victory, then you're the spoiled cry-baby that'll never be satisfied with anything.
There's never a good time to criticise. They will never engage on the actual points. They think you should only support and think of positive thoughts. That's what a "true supporter"(tm) does.
There's no arguing against that level of dogmatism. It's like trying to discuss planetary orbits with a flat earther, some times.
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Agreed that too much overreaction on the result of the game. Also in agreement with the rest.
What can be though taken from the game is our lack of ability to keep possession when pressed. There was a brief period in the second half where we did it but, then just fell back into the habit of ceding possession and letting them have the ball. Yes, it's tough to do it with 10 men but, on our broadcast, commentator said we should be able to at least do better despite being a man down in that we have the better ball players.
It's not just about the Young Boys game, it's something very common even with 11 men, when we get put under pressure, we rarely are able to take charge and take the sting out of the opponent by getting a hold of the ball and passing amongst us. That has got to do with training/coaching for which I think most of our focus in being around being more direct and more individual magic rather than moving the ball around quickly in possession. We seemed to do that so rarely yet when we do, like the 2nd goal against Newcastle, we look so much more dangerous. Most of the time, everyone is taking 3-4 touches and looking down at the ball when receiving it before they look up to see what they want to do next. Which is why when pressed, we seem so flustered.
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If you criticise the performance on a defeat, then you'll be told you're overreacting or waiting (hoping even) for a defeat to criticise the manager. You're not a "true supporter". Tut, tut, tut. But if you criticise the performance on a victory, then you're the spoiled cry-baby that'll never be satisfied with anything.
There's never a good time to criticise. They will never engage in the actual points. They think you should only support and think of positive thoughts. That's what a true support does.
There's no arguing against that level of dogmatism. It's like trying to discuss planetary orbits with a flat earther some times.
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Maybe we can use rotation. 3 days in a week Ole outers post, 3 days Ole inners and on sunday thread locked.
If you criticise the performance on a defeat, then you'll be told you're overreacting or waiting (hoping even) for a defeat to criticise the manager. You're not a "true supporter". Tut, tut, tut. But if you criticise the performance on a victory, then you're the spoiled cry-baby that'll never be satisfied with anything.
There's never a good time to criticise. They will never engage in the actual points. They think you should only support and think of positive thoughts. That's what a true support does.
There's no arguing against that level of dogmatism. It's like trying to discuss planetary orbits with a flat earther some times.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe we can use rotation. 3 days in a week Ole outers post, 3 days Ole inners and on sunday thread locked.
Ya right. SAF was sitting and not making any subs and hoping for the best in those games.
Again, nobody is saying that Ole could or should win every game. Bad results do happen. He's not and will not be judged on the YB defeat alone.
But even though the best team doesn't always win, it should win most times. And managers of top clubs do get judged on what titles they win. A manager can't always hide behind the excuse of a freak result. United should be beating Villareal 8 times out of 10.
People are worried about things they observe in our performances and about a persistent pattern of underperformance in Europe under Ole (7 defeats in 11 games in the CL) that seems to stem from bad tactics or game management. He will need to improve significantly. He has a squad that should be challenging for the title and comfortably progressing from the groups into the CL knockouts.
I hope he does improve, for the record. I just have my doubts
I'm not saying that I want him sacked now, but the message might be that we are able to see deeper under the surface and not just see a couple of good results.
Only after draws, perhaps?
If the moon is also full and Mars is retrograde, then yes. But only for 10 minutes otherwise you're whining and we can't have that.
He faced Barca over two legs with a broken squad that wasn't his, with injuries on top of that. It was Jones Smalling up against Messi, Suarez and Coutinho. Everyone agreed that it was pretty much a free run for him. So now we've suddenly decided to use it against him?
I mean we looked awful in both legs.
That Barcelona team was a year removed from their Rome capitulation. They weren't this unbeatable team.
The reason he's 4 out of 11 in CL is not because of Barca. We haven't played Barca 11 times, we've only played them twice. It's because of Basaksehir, Leipzig and YB, games he should be winning to get us out of the group stages.
Even if you remove the games from his first 6 months in charge (which is a fair call), he's only 3 out of 7. And those are all games in the group stages.
We will very much use his CL record against him, why wouldn't we?
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