[RDCR07]

He's been steadily getting worse since 2010. That was his peak.

He scores goals (or at least he can) but there's better players out there to do that job and we don't even play him in that position. No.10, midfielder and all kinds of shit which he can't do.

WHAT? Are you serious?

2010-11 season: 16 goals and 14 assists
2011-12 season: 34 goals and 9 assists
2012-13 season: 16 goals and 14 assists (RVP's first year - he was so detrimental to the team right?)
2013-14 season: 19 goals and 22 assists (Boy that partnership with RVP is clearly not working out)

The cafe has some kind of hate for Rooney. Some of it is just unwarranted. LVG's first year was the first time he scored less than 15 goals in a season (14) in as far as I can remember. Every other year it has been a minimum of 15 and a maximum of 43. You have to go all the way back to his Everton days when he scored 9 goals in season. That was back in 2003-04.

 

[RDCR07]

I can't say he's been consistantly good since the end of the 11-12 season when he was developing a nice partnership with Welbeck. In Fergie's last season he was such a detriment to our general play and his partnership with RvP was non-existent. It was no surprise he got dropped for our biggest game of the season at home to Madrid, and was seemingly put up for sale by Fergie. He had a few nice moments of course but, coming off the back of another good season from him, and buying what we thought would be brilliant partners for him in Kagawa and RvP, it was nothing but a disappointing season from him.

He was better under Moyes but it's nothing to brag about. Everyone, bar Januzaj and de Gea, that season was terrible and just because he stood out from the pile of dung that was our squad that season doesn't mean it was a successful season for him. I still have nightmares from our game away to Munich.

The last two seasons under van Gaal are the worst I've ever seen him play bar his short stint as a number 8 where he was decent and outperformed all our midfielders bar Carrick.

Rooney said he never wanted to leave. Fergie just played that card before he left since he wanted to get the upper hand one last time. Huge ego issue with Wayne. He was disappointing with RVP? He scored 35 goals and assisted 36 goals in the first two years when RVP was here. And 19 goals and 22 assists in Moyes' first season when everyone around you is shit is nothing to brag about? Im using the same excuse you used for Moyes - the whole team, the entire squad was shit under LVG except for DDG and Martial last season. He didnt have the players around him, not a good system to play in, his position kept changing - he was #9, then #10 then moved to midfield.

 

[Devil may care]

Pogba isn't a 10 if that's what you're implying. Mou said he'll play Rooney at 9, 9½ and 10.

That's not what I am implying.

So this isn't going to happen. Needs to be said.

How is it not going to happen? Pogba plays his best football in the 4-3-3 on the left side of an inverted midfield 3, we will be playing this 4-2-3-1 formation that France played so that Rooney can play as the #10 which takes away part of what makes Pogba so good.

 

[Yagami]

Rooney said he never wanted to leave. Fergie just played that card before he left since he wanted to get the upper hand one last time. Huge ego issue with Wayne.

That could well be the case. On the other hand, it could be because Fergie realised Rooney's best days were behind him and there was no coming back so decided to try and cash in on him whilst his stock was still high. Then Moyes happened.

He was disappointing with RVP? He scored 35 goals and assisted 36 goals in the first two years when RVP was here.

I think most people could see the partnership just wasn't working. Fine stats but they don't paint the whole picture. He was a dispensible player in his first season with RvP as with or without him we were fine. In the second, when he became captain, he was definitely more important. It just so happened that our over-reliance on him and his reclaimed importance resulted in a terrible season.

And 19 goals and 22 assists in Moyes' first season when everyone around you is shit is nothing to brag about?

Just because he was better than a lot of our players that season doesn't mean he performed to an acceptable standard. As I said, he was better that season and those stats are okay, but they don't paint the full picture. It's like with Mata - people use his stats as a way to make it seem he's more important to the team than he actually is without actually referring to his general performance.

Im using the same excuse you used for Moyes - the whole team, the entire squad was shit under LVG except for DDG and Martial last season. He didnt have the players around him, not a good system to play in, his position kept changing - he was #9, then #10 then moved to midfield.

Okay but that further discredits Rooney. He's supposed to be our captain, leader, one of our best players but you can't seperate him from the averageness that was our tenure under van Gaal. He looked rubbish in every position bar midfield and was, more often than not, our worst player on the field even though he's supposedly still a good player.

If he didn't have such a huge reputation and a lot of successful history with the club I don't think there'd be a United fan alive who would reject the notion he hasn't regressed into a below average player over the years. People don't criticise him because they dislike him, they criticise him because he gets undeserved preferential treatment. They're not "haters".

I like Rooney but that isn't going to cloud my judgement on him as a player, and I don't think it will for a lot of United fans who criticise him. I mean, United fans turned on Tevez big time when he left for City and held the infamous RIP sign, but they could still admit he was a terrific player. It's nothing to do with dislking the man himself (though of course some do), it's to do with the fact he's just flat out been declining over the years yet is still for some bizarre reason treated as a brilliant player by our previous two managers and some fans.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

WHAT? Are you serious?

2010-11 season: 16 goals and 14 assists
2011-12 season: 34 goals and 9 assists
2012-13 season: 16 goals and 14 assists (RVP's first year - he was so detrimental to the team right?)
2013-14 season: 19 goals and 22 assists (Boy that partnership with RVP is clearly not working out)

The cafe has some kind of hate for Rooney. Some of it is just unwarranted. LVG's first year was the first time he scored less than 15 goals in a season (14) in as far as I can remember. Every other year it has been a minimum of 15 and a maximum of 43. You have to go all the way back to his Everton days when he scored 9 goals in season. That was back in 2003-04.

Great post and at last some stats/proof against some of the nonsense that gets posted about Rooney.

 

[TsuWave]

that's the thing though, stats can pad and utterly mask general horrible play.

The cafe has some kind of hate for Rooney. Some of it is just unwarranted. LVG's first year was the first time he scored less than 15 goals in a season (14) in as far as I can remember. Every other year it has been a minimum of 15 and a maximum of 43. You have to go all the way back to his Everton days when he scored 9 goals in season. That was back in 2003-04.

rooney's goals, even at his best, came in patches. could be in a drought all year then bang a few braces against bottom half of league and ta-da. stats.

 

[RDCR07]

that's the thing though, stats can pad and utterly mask general horrible play.



rooney's goals, even at his best, came in patches. could be in a drought all year then bang a few braces against bottom half of league and ta-da. stats.

But isnt that the case with every player? Does it mean any less if he scores against weaker teams? You still need to score to win. He has scored 115 goals over the last 6 seasons. Thats an average of almost 20 goals a campaign. This is even when he is being switched around from striker to CAM to central midfielder.

 

[SteveJ]

Exclusive interview with Martin Samuel:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ose-Mourinho-seen-scoring-goals-10-years.html

 

[Yagami]

But isnt that the case with every player? Does it mean any less if he scores against weaker teams? You still need to score to win. He has scored 115 goals over the last 6 seasons. Thats an average of almost 20 goals a campaign. This is even when he is being switched around from striker to CAM to central midfielder.

Of course that's impressive but stats aren't everything. His general play over the last few years has diminished incredibly and his output of goals and assists don't make up for that. He causes more problems for us than the actual opposition.

The best he's played in years was as a #8 and that was ironically his least productive era at the club in terms of goals/assists (I think). He was, in my opinion, our most influential player in winning the FA cup - especially in the semi and final. Goals and assists are obviously important but they don't mean everything in terms of individual performances as it's a team game.

 

[suheilsworld]

Looks like he is becoming a PR tool for Mourinho

 

[Art]

I think that's the first Rooney interview I've read in ten years that comes off as genuine.

 

[Yagami]

It might just be me but I feel Rooney is always quite genuine when speaking openly about his career. It's just that with him not being very eloquent it doesn't come off that way.

 

[Juanuzayne]

Of course that's impressive but stats aren't everything. His general play over the last few years has diminished incredibly and his output of goals and assists don't make up for that. He causes more problems for us than the actual opposition.

The best he's played in years was as a #8 and that was ironically his least productive era at the club in terms of goals/assists (I think). He was, in my opinion, our most influential player in winning the FA cup - especially in the semi and final. Goals and assists are obviously important but they don't mean everything in terms of individual performances as it's a team game.

Read this sort of stuff far too often on this forum, but can you elaborate on how exactly he does that?

Imo, the contract sagas have left such a bad taste in some fans' mouth (and rightfully so to an extent), that they completely disregard many of the positives Wayne still brings to the team on the pitch.

 

[Yagami]

Read this sort of stuff far too often on this forum, but can you elaborate on how exactly he does that?

It's with the whole having to fit Rooney into the team snowball effect when he isn't good enough to warrant it. Having to play him as a 10 when we had Kagawa/Mata and now Mkhi, thus forcing them to play out of position just causes an unbalance to the team. Not only that, but he seems to ruin tha majority of our attacks with a heavy first touch, bad pass, being dispossessed easily.

Imo, the contract sagas have left such a bad taste in some fans' mouth (and rightfully so to an extent), that they completely disregard many of the positives Wayne still brings to the team on the pitch.

I still like Wayne so don't worry there I know I don't come across as someone who does with my previous posts but I just call it as I see it. & I've already said I thought he was one of our better players last season as the #8 whereas most still thought he was rubbish. I give credit where credit is due no matter what my personal feelings towards the player are. Except Marcus - he can do no wrong

 

[jungledrums]

WHAT? Are you serious?

2010-11 season: 16 goals and 14 assists
2011-12 season: 34 goals and 9 assists
2012-13 season: 16 goals and 14 assists (RVP's first year - he was so detrimental to the team right?)
2013-14 season: 19 goals and 22 assists (Boy that partnership with RVP is clearly not working out)

The cafe has some kind of hate for Rooney. Some of it is just unwarranted. LVG's first year was the first time he scored less than 15 goals in a season (14) in as far as I can remember. Every other year it has been a minimum of 15 and a maximum of 43. You have to go all the way back to his Everton days when he scored 9 goals in season. That was back in 2003-04.

I thought his top scoring season was 2009/10 and 2011/12, with 34 goals in both? Transfermarkt says he got 43 in 09/10, and 14 champions league goals in that campaign. I don't believe that is true, as 14 goals would have been a record in the champions league at that time, and we did not play any qualifiers in Europe during that campaign. I may be wrong, but I believe those stats are a bit off.

 

[Perrick Dubois]

WHAT? Are you serious?

He made that exact claim in one of the off season Rooney threads. I'd just ignore it, it is a ludicrous claim that is not even worth discussing.

Great post and at last some stats/proof against some of the nonsense that gets posted about Rooney.

The nonsense changes to suit each particular individual narrative. 18 months, 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, 6 years. It has become increasingly more tedious as more people try to use it as an attention seeking go-to claim.

 

[NoPace]

Great player in his prime, still a great finisher who can get 15 goals and finish 5th or 6th in goals for a Prem team, but we'd be best off selling him. Way too sloppy as a passer and defender to play as a 10 and even if Martial is at LW, full time he's still only 3rd choice as a striker with Rashford's emergence and Zlatan still being very, very good.

I really think Mourinho will bench him and he'll go in January, maybe on loan. Managers elsewhere will want him and he's just not good enough for us anymore.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

I thought his top scoring season was 2009/10 and 2011/12, with 34 goals in both? Transfermarkt says he got 43 in 09/10, and 14 champions league goals in that campaign. I don't believe that is true, as 14 goals would have been a record in the champions league at that time, and we did not play any qualifiers in Europe during that campaign. I may be wrong, but I believe those stats are a bit off.

Yeah, he never scored more than 34 goals for us. And that season in Champions League -- only 5 goals. Looks like they just copy/pasted appearances number into goals column.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

Great player in his prime, still a great finisher who can get 15 goals and finish 5th or 6th in goals for a Prem team, but we'd be best off selling him. Way too sloppy as a passer and defender to play as a 10 and even if Martial is at LW, full time he's still only 3rd choice as a striker with Rashford's emergence and Zlatan still being very, very good.

I really think Mourinho will bench him and he'll go in January, maybe on loan. Managers elsewhere will want him and he's just not good enough for us anymore.

15 goals is acceptable if either a: other players are all chipping in with goals, and that's not been the case at Utd for a while, or b: it's as a rotation player. Otherwise a first team striker at Utd needs to to be hitting 20 plus regularly, he is still capable of that IF he stays in form all season and the team is playing well, but it's far from a sure thing. Atm it's all conjecture and things will be clearer by mid September I think.

 

[Black Adder]

15 goals is acceptable if either a: other players are all chipping in with goals, and that's not been the case at Utd for a while, or b: it's as a rotation player. Otherwise a first team striker at Utd needs to to be hitting 20 plus regularly, he is still capable of that IF he stays in form all season and the team is playing well, but it's far from a sure thing. Atm it's all conjecture and things will be clearer by mid September I think.

This is probably the best post in this thread so far.

 

[Brwned]

that's the thing though, stats can pad and utterly mask general horrible play.

You're making it sound like he's a flat-track bully which seems an odd thing to suggest. He's scored 16 goals in 36 games since 2010 against Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and City. Aguero's probably the best big-game scorer in the league and he has 20 in 33 against the equivalent - better, but not miles apart.

 

[itso 7]

Since 2012? Bollocks. In 2012-2013 he had 16 goals and 14 assists. And in 2013-2014 season he had 19 goals and 22 assists. Even the last 2 seasons he has scored average of 15 goals.

He has been a massively productive player over the years but what the stats will never tell you is how well the team would have done overally as unit without his presence, for example Zidane and Iniesta played roughly the same role as him and never had such impressive stats but their impact on the teams was greater than Rooney's has been, particularly in the last couple of years. Rooney is a master at playing poorly then finishing the match with a goal and an assist but can that ever be enough especially from a streaky player like him who gets the majority of his goals in increasingly sporadic bouts of good form? Looking at his figures in isolation without considering the team as a whole or within the context of the league is misleading imo, if you relate the 19 goals he got in 2014 to the 30+ that Suarez got then you will see that is output was well below the standard of a top player - which justifies calls for managers to stop treating him as such.

 

[Adam-Utd]

He's still got desire and reads the game well, but for a forward he is too wooden and lacks any flair to beat a man. Compare him to Rashford and it's night and day, he just couldn't do what Rashford did to win that penalty.

For me in the 10 it's between Rooney/Ibra/Mata/Mkhitaryan, and IMO Rooney is the worst of the 4. I respect him for the great career he has had, but I no longer really enjoy watching him as a player. Think he needs to move on next summer, as shoehorning him into the side is just detrimental to us now.

 

[stevoc]

It's with the whole having to fit Rooney into the team snowball effect when he isn't good enough to warrant it. Having to play him as a 10 when we had Kagawa/Mata and now Mkhi, thus forcing them to play out of position just causes an unbalance to the team. Not only that, but he seems to ruin tha majority of our attacks with a heavy first touch, bad pass, being dispossessed easily.

Mkhataryan is a winger, thats where he played most of his football in the last 3 years for Dortmund. Those performances are why we agreed to play almost £30m for him, coupled with the fact we had no real recognized right winger last season it's clear thats where he was bought to play.

Rooney being in the side won't affect him in any way, and won't mean he's playing out of position unless Wayne is deployed on the wing for some strange reason.

Rooney was also much better than Kagawa during his time at the club. Theres merit to the idea that Mata should be starting ahead of him at no10, it's debatable at the very least.

 

[Perrick Dubois]

15 goals is acceptable if either a: other players are all chipping in with goals, and that's not been the case at Utd for a while, or b: it's as a rotation player. Otherwise a first team striker at Utd needs to to be hitting 20 plus regularly, he is still capable of that IF he stays in form all season and the team is playing well, but it's far from a sure thing. Atm it's all conjecture and things will be clearer by mid September I think.

15 goals should be the benchmark or average for any forward from any team playing in the PL. (Obviously lower team forwards aspire to but don't live and die by that benchmark).

If you're scoring 20+ PL goals in a season then you are one of the best forwards in the league and/or having an above average to top class season. I think people get a bit carried away with "20 goals" as a benchmark and forget that only a few forwards each season can manage scoring over 20 goals and they are usually the best players in the teams that finish quite high in the table. For example, the amount of strikers netting over twenty times in a season going back a decade is:

06/07: 1, 07/08: 3, 08/09: 0, 09/10: 5, 10/11: 2, 11/12: 3, 12/13: 3, 13/14: 3, 14/15: 2, 15/16: 3.

People really forget just how hard it is to score a lot of goals in this league.

Of course we're all expecting United to have high numbers and be right up there at the end of the season but 15g/15a for a player like Rooney is a perfectly acceptable benchmark. Especially being a reformed striker and not a natural playmaker. You can't really expect 20+ assists substituted for goals with the way he plays his role.

 

[itso 7]

15 goals should be the benchmark or average for any forward from any team playing in the PL. (Obviously lower team forwards aspire to but don't live and die by that benchmark).

If you're scoring 20+ PL goals in a season then you are one of the best forwards in the league and/or having an above average to top class season. I think people get a bit carried away with "20 goals" as a benchmark and forget that only a few forwards each season can manage scoring over 20 goals and they are usually the best players in the teams that finish quite high in the table. For example, the amount of strikers netting over twenty times in a season going back a decade is:

People really forget just how hard it is to score a lot of goals in this league.

Of course we're all expecting United to have high numbers and be right up there at the end of the season but 15g/15a for a player like Rooney is a perfectly acceptable benchmark. Especially being a reformed striker and not a natural playmaker. You can't really expect 20+ assists substituted for goals with the way he plays his role.

Isn't this the standard United should be demanding?

 

[stevoc]

Isn't this the standard United should be demanding?

From an out and out striker certainly, but has Rooney played consistently as an out and out striker the last few years?

 

[Dobbs]

Isn't this the standard United should be demanding?

Was about to say the same. Somehow scoring around 15 has become acceptable.

For Rooney and Zlatan the minimum should be 20 goals overall. With their profile, wages and hype it would be a real let down to score less.

 

[itso 7]

From an out and out striker certainly, but has Rooney played consistently as an out and out striker the last few years?

When he scored 34 in 2012 he wasn't an out and out striker either, the way Rooney plays the no.10 role he is more of second striker than a third midfielder and his goal output used to reflect that. Last year he spent the second half of the 14-15 season and the first half of last season as an out and out striker and guess what? He came nowhere near that standard.
Fwiw I don't want Rooney out of the club, I just want him to be treated like any other player - getting into the team on merit not past records/status/any other B.S.

 

[Perrick Dubois]

For Rooney and Zlatan the minimum should be 20 goals overall. With their profile, wages and hype it would be a real let down to score less.

Between them? Or each?

Again, I reiterate that people really overestimate how easy it is to score 20+ goals in the PL. Yes I agree it should be the benchmark aspiration of any title winning team. "Wages" and "Hype" have absolutely no relevance whatsoever. Scoring 20+ is hard to do for any PL striker, good or bad. There have only been three import strikers coming into the PL in the last 15 years and scoring 20+ goals in their debut season and all three of them were not the top scorer in the league in doing so in that season.

 

[Kag]

So this isn't going to happen. Needs to be said.

Really? Pogba has played an advanced role in a three man midfield for almost his entire professional club career. For this reason I wouldn't play him in any other role. He's a world record signing, after all.

 

[stevoc]

When he scored 34 in 2012 he wasn't an out and out striker either, the way Rooney plays the no.10 role he is more of second striker than a third midfielder and his goal output used to reflect that. Last year he spent the second half of the 14-15 season and the first half of last season as an out and out striker and guess what? He came nowhere near that standard.
Fwiw I don't want Rooney out of the club, I just want him to be treated like any other player - getting into the team on merit not past records/status/any other B.S.

He wasn't no but that was one season, which other player who isn't an out and out striker consistently scores 20 league goals every year?

 

[itso 7]

He wasn't no but that was one season, which other player who isn't an out and out striker consistently scores 20 league goals every year?

That was merely to highlight to you that is once possible with him because of the way the team was set up and his style. To go from those heights to what we are seeing now is a steep decline indeed.

 

[dichinero]

With strong CM options, I'd rather have Mickey and possibly Mata at#10 ahead of Rooney.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Really? Pogba has played an advanced role in a three man midfield for almost his entire professional club career. For this reason I wouldn't play him in any other role. He's a world record signing, after all.

Mourinho can play Pogba however the feck he wants. He's the manager. This idea that Wayne Rooney picks our team and formation is beyond retarded.

 

[Dobbs]

Between them? Or each?

Again, I reiterate that people really overestimate how easy it is to score 20+ goals in the PL. Yes I agree it should be the benchmark aspiration of any title winning team. "Wages" and "Hype" have absolutely no relevance whatsoever. Scoring 20+ is hard to do for any PL striker, good or bad. There have only been three import strikers coming into the PL in the last 15 years and scoring 20+ goals in their debut season and all three of them were not the top scorer in the league in doing so in that season.

Each obviously.

When posters talk about 20 goals they mean overall. Or at least they do in this particular discussion. I think you've switched that into just PL goals.

 

[Dobbs]

Mourinho can play Pogba however the feck he wants. He's the manager. This idea that Wayne Rooney picks our team and formation is beyond retarded.

He's not directly picking the team but clearly his reputation and the backlash that comes with dropping him affects team selection. That's not his fault though and I doubt Mourinho is as weak as Moyes, LvG and Hodgson.

 

[stevoc]

That was merely to highlight to you that is once possible with him because of the way the team was set up and his style. To go from those heights to what we are seeing now is a steep decline indeed.

Yes he has declined who is arguing that fact? One season shouldn't define him, since the age of 18 bar two seasons he has consistently scored 15-19 goals every year. So i have no idea now that he has declined why people are expecting him to start scoring more goals than he has historically managed.

So i'll ask again which player who isn't an out and out striker consistently scores 20 league goals every year.

Once you answer that question it should put into perspective your expectation for Rooney to be scoring that amount of goals every year from the position he plays.

 

[Kag]

Mourinho can play Pogba however the feck he wants. He's the manager. This idea that Wayne Rooney picks our team and formation is beyond retarded.

And Van Gaal could have bought Pogba and played him at centre half. You'd be sharp inclined to take a paddy at that, wouldn't you? Mourinho can do whatever he wants with Pogba, you're right, it doesn't make it the best way to use his most expensive player.

Rooney doesn't pick our team and formation and I'm not sure who even suggested that.

 

[Perrick Dubois]

Each obviously.

When posters talk about 20 goals they mean overall. Or at least they do in this particular discussion. I think you've switched that into just PL goals.

Yes I am talking PL goals. 15/15 for Rooney is the benchmark, I don't know how many Zlatan is going to score. Realistically I'd hope it is at least 15.

Mourinho can play Pogba however the feck he wants. He's the manager. This idea that Wayne Rooney picks our team and formation is beyond retarded.

Pogue, come on lad. There is no need for this.