Jesus, what ridiculous hyperbole. Last season they were terrible together but in their first season they combined together very well on several occasions.
Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
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Jesus, what ridiculous hyperbole. Last season they were terrible together but in their first season they combined together very well on several occasions.
They combined very well on several occasions, mostly in the early start of the season but not well enough to deserve to start according to SAF who considered Rooney a support player in the biggest matches towards the end as he realized they wouldn't perform well enough to deserve to start together up front. RVP was very clearly the number 1 striker while Rooney played where he could, or on the bench like against Madrid.
No, that was because Rooney was out of form. They did link together very well in several games that season. You're just making things up as you go along to support your ridiculous assertion.
I think most fans dreamed about RVP and Rooney clicking up front, why anybody would want to see them fail when they are succeeding is beyond me. I believe that you who are an extreme Rooney fan may rate his performances higher than most others, which would make sense as you can cling on to the dream of RVP/Rooney up front.
I really couldn't care less what formation we played or who starts where as long as we win (And if it were up to me I wouldn't play Rooney up top either). I just don't believe in making things up to back up a shit point. What you said was massive exaggeration and then some.
When do people think Rooney stopped looking world class? He was class the 08/09 season, even better after it and had a decent 11/12 and 12/13. I don't think he's ever stopped being a top, top player but UNITED have stopped looking word class.
England is a different case allround because for some reason they all look shit.
England is a different case allround because for some reason they all look shit.
Mate truth be told most us of under appreciated RVP til he came here. When RVP came, we suddenly realised that Rooney wasn't as good as him and thus began the Rooney is crap talk.
Getting personal and assuming things after talking the bollocks. Caf narrative right here.
Let's be honest here.
"One of the worst partnerships I have seen in my life"
or
"Rooney and RVP as a partnership has been absolutely horrible though, we would be better if one of them got sent off nearly every game they play together"
is massive exaggeration. I really don't see how you can assert that a team would be better off with a player sent off. Especially if that player sent off is a key player.
A shit partnership doesn't go on to see RvP score 30 goals and make 8 assists in a season and see United win the title. Rooney scored 16 and made 13 assists that season as well.
They're not the best partnership of course. But they're surely not the worst by a mile.
As for that argument about fitting in, I really want to see United's results, goal output, etc comparison between Rooney in the team and Rooney not in the team.That would make for interesting analysis. I don't pretend I know the answer to that and wouldn't hazard to make a guess until I see the facts. But that, at least is a much more plausible argument than the others I've seen in here.
Well for me, I didn't under appreciate RvP at all. He was the BPL top scorer when he joined and was Arsenal's key player for consecutive seasons. I knew we had a top class striker joining us and I was happy to see we now had great options in attack which meant we are less reliant on Rooney. If we learnt anything from the 2009/2010 season, that is a good thing. I was surprised, though because I thought that purchases in other areas were more pressing.
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I underestimated Van Persie a lot, I never realized how good he was until he played for us his at least a level or two above Rooney IMO.
Good posts @tombombadil
Exactly what you said in your first post happened right after. Van Persie complained once about players being in his zones and now Rooney is always in his zones and they are the worst partnership of all time.
Exactly what you said in your first post happened right after. Van Persie complained once about players being in his zones and now Rooney is always in his zones and they are the worst partnership of all time.
How anyone can claim that Rooney and RVP is the worst partnership of all time is beyond me.
lots of agenda driven people who hate Rooney. and of course the ABUs love attacking Rooney.
How many times have we seen Rooney carry the entire team. Without him we look half the team.
van Gaal will make Rooney and RVP play together. cant wait for the new season.
How many times have we seen Rooney carry the entire team. Without him we look half the team.
van Gaal will make Rooney and RVP play together. cant wait for the new season.
It's certainly one of the worst we've had, other than the odd ball over the top to RVP they don't even pass each other the ball.
5 pass to one another in a game, it's not even a partnership. Even opposition make more passes sometimes
Loads of hyperbole on both sides of the argument. I know LVG will do what is best to ensure success. If this means Rooney will continue to play an important role I can deal with that. If it means Rooney will be benched at times or play a less prominent role I hope his big supporters can handle that.
Maybe Rooney will become our Kuyt 2.0. Our hard working, flexible, expendable workhorse.
Of course the point about having one of them sent off was an exaggeration as it was a joke. But they are the worst striker partnership I have witnessed in my life and they highlight the difficulty of the 4-4-2 or any formation with two strikers. Finding two who fit is very difficult which is seen when Robben became that perfect partner to RVP which Rooney never was as they do and provide really different things.
RVP plays centrally, has great link-up play and his weakness is his poor dribbling in that he can't really search the wide areas easily as he won't beat his full-back. Rooney also plays centrally and his biggest weakness is his dribbling which means he can't run at the defenses and defenders and then beat them either.
So both RVP and Rooney prefers the central third of the pitch and it gets noticeable when Robben has performed so great next to RVP as Robben is a dribbling winger so he is comfortable moving wide left, wide right or run at the defense with or without the ball. Arjen has more dribbles per game than RVP and Rooney combined.
RVP and Rooney don't interact well, it is why SAF pulled Rooney down towards the midfield or played him out wide when it mattered the most or even benched him.
About underrating RVP, it was quite clear he was the best striker ahead of Rooney when we bought him. I was against the signing as I didn't want Rooney's status in the squad to be changed as RVP is most likely going to decline soon as he is already 31 whereas Rooney hopefully has some years left at this point regardless of what Scholes says.
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Actually after defending him to the hills, Ive had enough, Sell him.
I'm probably late to the argument but when Rooney was on form and our main goalscorer in 2010, he was scoring headers the whole season. Some of them were brilliant headers, like the one against Milan.
The key words here are "when Rooney was on form." I don't see him getting back his 2010 form, to be honest.
Do other teams hate their best players too?
Just so everyone knows rooney and our s Spanish keeper were our best players last season and rvp went back to Holland and miraculously returned just in time for the world cup. Kagawa was shit, Mata wasn't good and so on.
Rooney will prove the doubters wrong yet again this season.
Just so everyone knows rooney and our s Spanish keeper were our best players last season and rvp went back to Holland and miraculously returned just in time for the world cup. Kagawa was shit, Mata wasn't good and so on.
Rooney will prove the doubters wrong yet again this season.
missed 5 games through injured, scored 17, made 10 assists.
Hate him for the way he behaves towards club and fans but there is no question he is one of our best 3 players
Hate him for the way he behaves towards club and fans but there is no question he is one of our best 3 players
Debatable. RVP, De Gea and Mata are our best three IMO.
Not at United. Don't get me wrong, I rate Mata and think he will be better next season but hasn't been great for us yet.
Fair enough.
RVP was our best player the season before. Rooney was our best player last season. I am certain van Gaal will get the best our of both players. He believes in a strong team spirit as can be seen in the current Holland side.
I doubt one will have a less prominent role at all.
I fear for Rooney this season, I really don't know how van Gaal intends to utilise him.
I want us as a team to be successful. Once that happens does it matter whom he utilizes and how he utilizes them?
Team spirit comes when players buy into a manager's system and all are treated fairly. Not by the manager accommodating players.
I like Nani but if he does not fit into LVG's plans and we end up successful, so be it.
Don't fear for Rooney, we are Man Utd not Rooney Utd.
Team spirit comes when players buy into a manager's system and all are treated fairly. Not by the manager accommodating players.
I like Nani but if he does not fit into LVG's plans and we end up successful, so be it.
Don't fear for Rooney, we are Man Utd not Rooney Utd.
Some of the comments above.If we manage to get Rooney and van Persie to cohesively gel; good lord. van Gaal has the capabilities to do just that, I look forward to how things pan out.
I don't know how we utilize him, but one thing must be said. Mata simply has to play as a 10 more often than not. Rooney is limited to a 10, which Mata is better in and a 9 which Van Persie is better in.
Rooney is more efficient in the #10. What he lacks in dribbling abilities, short passing and ball control, he compensates in physical strength, shooting technique, and is a very good long range passer. Add these traits to the fact you are virtually guarantee either a goal or assist per game from Rooney, it is a pretty good return. I do agree in Mata that role benefits him more, but I don't agree with this view that Mata is completely better in the role because Rooney simply offers an alternate dimension.
Can't really see it working centrally though. One will have to play wide I think. RVP has played quite well as an off the shoulder striker who drifts wide on a counter. Rooney doesn't really perform as well like that. It will be interesting if he thinks so how he goes about it.
If we manage to get Rooney and van Persie to cohesively gel; good lord. van Gaal has the capabilities to do just that, I look forward to how things pan out.
It's true they don't pass to each other that often last season but I'm not sure where you got your numbers from. Before I get to that, we first need to look at things in context. There are mitigating circumstances for this.
RvP plays like an out and out striker and so spends most of his time up front receiving the final ball and shooting. Rooney plays a deeper role and spends more time in central midfield or areas outside the box.
With that physical gap between them, it is not surprising that chances for them to pass to each other are limited.
Not just that. United have focused on wing play (especially last season) and Rooney has specialised in distributing to the flanks. Especially long balls to the right wing. So with hardly any emphasis on creation through the middle and Rooney focusing on long balls to the flanks, is it any wonder they rarely passed to each other?
It's true their partnership is probably not the best in the league. I'm just saying they're not the worst. Their output together the last two seasons are still good after all. We need to stop with all this baseless exaggeration.
Now let's get to the numbers to get some perspective:-
2012/2013
Rooney & RvP
Mins per pass to each other = 7.95 (About 11 passes per 90 mins)
Assists created for each other = 4
Total Goals that season = 16 (Rooney) + 30 (RvP) = 46
Total Assists that season = 13 (Rooney) + 8 (RvP) = 21
Total = 67 goals and assists
Appearances that season GS(SB) = 31(6) + 40(8)
Rooney 0.78 goal incident per appearance. RvP 0.79 goal incident per appearance
2013/2014
Rooney & RvP
Mins per pass to each other = 10.68 (About 8 passes per 90 mins) (as at some time in March)
Assists created for each other = 4 (as at some time in March)
Total Goals that season= 19 (Rooney) + 18 (RvP) = 37
Total Assists that season= 17(Rooney) + 3 (RvP) = 20
Total = 57 goals and assists
Appearances that season GS(SB) = 37(3) + 23(5)
Rooney 0.9 goal incident per appearance. RvP 0.75 goal incident per appearance
Suarez & Sturridge
Mins per pass to each other = 8.83 (About 10 passes per 90 mins) (as at some time in March)
Assists created for each other = 6 (as at some time in March)
Total Goals that season= 31 (Suarez) + 21 (Sturridge) = 52
Total Assists that season = 12 (Suarez) + 7 (Sturridge) = 19
Total = 71 goals and assists
Appearances that season GS(SB) = 33(0) + 26(3)
Suarez 1.3 goal incident per appearance. Sturridge 0.96 goal incident per appearance
Just seeing the stats, we can infer a few theories and conclusions.
1) RvP missed many games last season and that is probably the main reason their goal and assist output was lower last season. If he had been fit, it would've pushed their stats closer to 2012/2013 territory.
2) Rooney stepped up to compensate for the loss of RvP but it wasn't enough.
3) Our obsession with a crossing game last season was probably the main reason their link up play was reduced
4) They're partnership exists and is not as shit as some people say they are
5) Suarez and Sturridge were really very, very good. (Obviously.
)You are seriously going to insist they are the worst you have ever seen in your entire life? I guess you don't watch much football then. Whatever floats your boat, man.
But first I need to correct a few misconceptions.:-
1) Both of them playing centrally is not really an issue. Dwight Yorke and Andy Cole are proof of that. Many strike partnerships are like that.
2) While Rooney and RvP both play centrally, Rooney plays very deep while RvP plays up front most of the time. So they're not even covering the same areas of the pitch.
3) SAF did not pull Rooney down to midfield because the partnership sucked. That just doesn't make sense. He did that because we needed Rooney to back up the midfield as an extra man especially because many teams play with 3 in the middle these days. He's been doing that for quite awhile before that season.
Seriously, we really need to stop with the baseless exaggerations.
It's true they don't pass to each other that often last season but I'm not sure where you got your numbers from. Before I get to that, we first need to look at things in context. There are mitigating circumstances for this.
RvP plays like an out and out striker and so spends most of his time up front receiving the final ball and shooting. Rooney plays a deeper role and spends more time in central midfield or areas outside the box.
With that physical gap between them, it is not surprising that chances for them to pass to each other are limited.
Not just that. United have focused on wing play (especially last season) and Rooney has specialised in distributing to the flanks. Especially long balls to the right wing. So with hardly any emphasis on creation through the middle and Rooney focusing on long balls to the flanks, is it any wonder they rarely passed to each other?
It's true their partnership is probably not the best in the league. I'm just saying they're not the worst. Their output together the last two seasons are still good after all. We need to stop with all this baseless exaggeration.
Now let's get to the numbers to get some perspective:-
2012/2013
Rooney & RvP
Mins per pass to each other = 7.95 (About 11 passes per 90 mins)
Assists created for each other = 4
Total Goals that season = 16 (Rooney) + 30 (RvP) = 46
Total Assists that season = 13 (Rooney) + 8 (RvP) = 21
Total = 67 goals and assists
Appearances that season GS(SB) = 31(6) + 40(8)
Rooney 0.78 goal incident per appearance. RvP 0.79 goal incident per appearance
2013/2014
Rooney & RvP
Mins per pass to each other = 10.68 (About 8 passes per 90 mins) (as at some time in March)
Assists created for each other = 4 (as at some time in March)
Total Goals that season= 19 (Rooney) + 18 (RvP) = 37
Total Assists that season= 17(Rooney) + 3 (RvP) = 20
Total = 57 goals and assists
Appearances that season GS(SB) = 37(3) + 23(5)
Rooney 0.9 goal incident per appearance. RvP 0.75 goal incident per appearance
Suarez & Sturridge
Mins per pass to each other = 8.83 (About 10 passes per 90 mins) (as at some time in March)
Assists created for each other = 6 (as at some time in March)
Total Goals that season= 31 (Suarez) + 21 (Sturridge) = 52
Total Assists that season = 12 (Suarez) + 7 (Sturridge) = 19
Total = 71 goals and assists
Appearances that season GS(SB) = 33(0) + 26(3)
Suarez 1.3 goal incident per appearance. Sturridge 0.96 goal incident per appearance
Just seeing the stats, we can infer a few theories and conclusions.
1) RvP missed many games last season and that is probably the main reason their goal and assist output was lower last season. If he had been fit, it would've pushed their stats closer to 2012/2013 territory.
2) Rooney stepped up to compensate for the loss of RvP but it wasn't enough.
3) Our obsession with a crossing game last season was probably the main reason their link up play was reduced
4) They're partnership exists and is not as shit as some people say they are
5) Suarez and Sturridge were really very, very good. (Obviously.
You are seriously going to insist they are the worst you have ever seen in your entire life? I guess you don't watch much football then. Whatever floats your boat, man.
But first I need to correct a few misconceptions.:-
1) Both of them playing centrally is not really an issue. Dwight Yorke and Andy Cole are proof of that. Many strike partnerships are like that.
2) While Rooney and RvP both play centrally, Rooney plays very deep while RvP plays up front most of the time. So they're not even covering the same areas of the pitch.
3) SAF did not pull Rooney down to midfield because the partnership sucked. That just doesn't make sense. He did that because we needed Rooney to back up the midfield as an extra man especially because many teams play with 3 in the middle these days. He's been doing that for quite awhile before that season.
Seriously, we really need to stop with the baseless exaggerations.
I'm not an expert, but for me it's quite simple:
1. They are both very good players, no doubt.
2. They don't work well together, and we don't need stats and etc to see that, it's just too obvious not to agree that they don't work out well together.
3. It could have been compatibility issue / personal issue / tactical incompetent
whatever it is, these 3 points above I can safely says are true.
So... simply : they don't work well together, and they're not a good partnership. They are not the worst, if you compare them with 15 other teams bellow us, but considering the fact that we're competing against the top 4, and the quality of Rooney and RvP, yes they are very bad (the partnership)
Let's be fair here. You quoted a statistic you thought supported your argument. When I show you the stats actually go against your argument you tell me statistics are not important and just blindly believe that what you say is true. Is that fair?
Because, any blind man and his dog can see that they're not working well as a unit.
Can they work together? Probably
Will they work together under LVG? Probably
Are they working well together so far? NO
Let's not use statistic to paint a 180degree view on the blinding obvious, they sucks playing together.
Are you going to become KiD LoUiS this season?
I thought they were better together in RvP's first season at the club, with some good assisting of one and the other. I felt this season might build on that, but I think loads of elements conspired to just destroy any good basis there might be.
I agree with those saying that we should wait for next season. LvG is an experienced manager with an astute tactical nous, I honestly believe he could get them working as a coherent unit.
There is every chance Van Gaal will figure out a way to get them playing well together. If there are issues about them wandering into each other's "zones", he may devise some "rules", pointers in his system, to help ensure that does not happen. When he is there, you go there. If he is moving in that direction, you move in that direction. That kind of thing. Practical tips that will help them avoid getting under each other's feet and know what the other one is going to do. Isnt that the whole essence of what Van Gaal is about? It can be quite rigid, it may smother the instinctive side of the game a little bit, but it ensures everyone knows exactly what they are supposed to be doing.
He will, let's discount every assumption we made and see how it goes for the next 5-10 games.
It could be one of them are indiscipline, SAF and Moyes don't know how to make them play together, all any other possibilities.
But let's just wait how LVG handle this situation before we make any judgment.
I'm not using statistics to paint a 180 degree view. I'm just using statistics to correct your baseless exaggerations.
1) They did pass to each other more than 5 times
2) The erroneous idea that their partnership "doesn't even exist"
As I said earlier, they're not the best. But they aren't the worst either. The partnership does exist and it does work, to a certain degree. 67 goals and assists and 11 passes to each other per game in their first season points to some potential there. Of course, I hope it gets better when LvG comes, hopefully with more link up play through the middle involved in the build up, rather than just blind crossing like last season.
For once, I agree with you.
For all we know, Rooney might have a bust up with LvG on the first day of training and be sold in January. LOL. God I hope I haven't jinxed him. *crosses fingers*
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