Its not a case of watch players and ignore stats or only look at stats and ignore watching the player. Its both. If you scout a player and you are impressed with certain things he did. You can look at his stats to see how good he is at those things you were impressed by and compare to peers. Then you can watch him again and you might see something else. You might also spot a weakness and you can look at stats to see how severe that weakness might be. If you are looking for a player who is good at X, Y and Z and doesn't have weakness A or B, stats can show you those strengths and weaknesses to validate your evaluation of a player. Performance analysis will eventually become very popular and be used all over the world. People just have to adjust or they stick in the dark ages like Moyes and other dinosaurs like him. Do you think no coaches in the world at present look at performance analysis?
Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
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If you read my post you will see that I said stats play a part.
However stats don't tell the full story and they are flawed, which is why managers and scouts watch players.
They are no more flawed than a human being.
That is where I don't agree.
It depends on the human being who designed the statistical system and how well they developed it.
Some of them are down right crap like for instance whoscored
Yes machines are better than humans, but only if their algorithms have been developed correctly (I am a software engineer btw)
If you want a player who is strong at dribbling, either a winger or midfielder and you look at their stats. If player A makes 4 successful dribbles per game and has a 70% success rate and player B makes 2.5 successful dribbles per game and has a 45% success rate. Which do you think is the best option in terms of dribbling. If you compare them in other areas you are interested in such as creativity, passing, crossing or whatever it might be, do you not think you can get a reasonable idea of their ability. Then when you watch them you can focus on anything that stats do not record. If you wanted a player who is strong at dribbling you wouldn't go for player B, especially if he is was weak in the other areas you were interested in.
Imagine how much better Rooney's stats would be if the Ronaldo money was invested in a proper midfield.
"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination."
Never trust stats in isolation the amount of bollocks you can come with is never ending. You can argue a player never playing in a world cup can't be classed as world class ergo George Best, Ryan Giggs and Gareth bale are cack.
The greatest player in this country is the one with the most winners medals. Perhaps Giggs could argue that case but before him the holder of the accolade was Phil Neal ... WHO? exactly.
Football is the most fluid shoot from the hip sport in the world unfortunately the americanisation of coaching means a modern obsession with wearing head phones and playing the game on a PC. The entire point of football is it's unpredictability play is not a 3 second explosion from set plays as per american sport it's continuous for large periods. Trying to analyse what is a dribble, pass, cross or shot is debateable in itself therefore the data is open to debate.
Spotting a good player ain't rocket science if you've played, it really isn't.
Never trust stats in isolation the amount of bollocks you can come with is never ending. You can argue a player never playing in a world cup can't be classed as world class ergo George Best, Ryan Giggs and Gareth bale are cack.
The greatest player in this country is the one with the most winners medals. Perhaps Giggs could argue that case but before him the holder of the accolade was Phil Neal ... WHO? exactly.
Football is the most fluid shoot from the hip sport in the world unfortunately the americanisation of coaching means a modern obsession with wearing head phones and playing the game on a PC. The entire point of football is it's unpredictability play is not a 3 second explosion from set plays as per american sport it's continuous for large periods. Trying to analyse what is a dribble, pass, cross or shot is debateable in itself therefore the data is open to debate.
Spotting a good player ain't rocket science if you've played, it really isn't.
Imagine how a top quality midfield would improve the performances of ALL forward players playing in front of them. And how the defense would benefit. Midfield is the engine room and there is a reason it is referred to as that, because it affects the entire team dynamic.
My question to you was Rooney productive in the no.10 role. By productive I mean, scoring, assisting, creating chances. After all, that's what wins you games.
I don't even have a clue what these numbers mean, care to explain?
George Clrooney?
Let me explain this using an example: Gerrard. Gerrard, over the years, has always head a very impressive scoring record - even in crunch times. But he was not a very good central midfielder. Case-in-point: Gerrard's lack of positional discipline, patience and awareness was one of the prime reasons Liverpool were 3-0 down at half time during that Istanbul final - yet he scored the goal that started their come back. He was 'productive', but also a liability.
Same goes for Rooney in the no.10 role for United, sure he scores and assists, but him playing there unbalances the team and makes us likely to lose despite his personal 'productiveness'.
In what way would you say Rooney unbalances the team?
Rooney has a striker's mentality. His positioning usually very close to the box or in it (hence his high about of goals and assists). That's all well and good, but the primary function of a no.10 is to be the link man - a third midfielder who takes up positions that all him to receive and distribute the ball to the forwards creatively. He might grab a few goals and assists too.
Rooney's idea of 'distribution' is picking the ball up and moving it to the wing and sprinting into the box waiting for the ball to get quickly whipped in. That's totally understandable too - Rooney has a striker's instincts, he doesn't care about building moves slowly because he wants to be in the box scoring the goal. However, that ends up meaning we are very weak and building moves centrally, and we are also very vulnerable defensively through the middle.
I go to the huge effort of resisting and you do it instead 
Not when Ando sits at the back.
Funny anecdote: Someone stated they were more comfortable with RVP scoring a chance than Welbeck. Their respective shot conversion stats were compared, and it was found to be almost dead on. This guy in the face of facts, fecked off, mumbling, "I'm still more comfortable with RVP..."
Stats are cold hard facts. They have the potential to be used incorrectly, but it's hard to deceive a crowd with stats. They don't capture all of the information in a football match, but what they convey is good enough to be used as another option to watching the game. Why not use both? I'd trust stats over some random Joe Bloggs.
We've never had a traditional no 10 at United. Even during our heydey in Europe a few years ago, with the 4-2-3-1 we played, the likes of Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo had no fixed roles in the attack, they had the intelligence to move around and find space in front of the opposition's defense. The only reason why I don't want Rooney to play at no 10 is that we have Mata and Kagawa, but let's not act as if Rooney is a cancer to our general play, he has featured in some of the best football moments I've seen at Manchester as a fan. I'd rather have him start up front than RVP, but that's just me...
Stats are cold hard facts. They have the potential to be used incorrectly, but it's hard to deceive a crowd with stats. They don't capture all of the information in a football match, but what they convey is good enough to be used as another option to watching the game. Why not use both? I'd trust stats over some random Joe Bloggs.
We've never had a traditional no 10 at United. Even during our heydey in Europe a few years ago, with the 4-2-3-1 we played, the likes of Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo had no fixed roles in the attack, they had the intelligence to move around and find space in front of the opposition's defense. The only reason why I don't want Rooney to play at no 10 is that we have Mata and Kagawa, but let's not act as if Rooney is a cancer to our general play, he has featured in some of the best football moments I've seen at Manchester as a fan. I'd rather have him start up front than RVP, but that's just me...
Really really want Wayne to have a good world cup, we need him at his best next season, if we want to get back into Europe or even potentially challenge for the league title.
He will probably be converted into a inverted winger, as Van Gaal usually plays only 1 striker in his formation, but I think he will have a prolific season for us (Similar to David Villa in 10/11 for Barcelona).
He most definitely is world class when at his best and a good world cup can give him a huge confidence boost for the new season.
He will probably be converted into a inverted winger, as Van Gaal usually plays only 1 striker in his formation, but I think he will have a prolific season for us (Similar to David Villa in 10/11 for Barcelona).
He most definitely is world class when at his best and a good world cup can give him a huge confidence boost for the new season.
I agree that Rooney has a strikers mentality. After all, he is a striker. I think due to Rooney making it clear he still sees himself as a striker last season, and threatening to leave if he doesn't play there, I think Moyes allowed him to play further up the pitch, which like you said, did unbalance the team, although I think if we played the right players and had more imposing midifelders, we'd be fine. While Rooney didn't play as an out an out number 10 last season, he quite obviously didn't play as an out an out striker neither. We've never really played with a no.10 anyway. We've always had strikers who can drop off into the pockets and start off play - a second striker, if you like.
Having said all of this, this is not to say Rooney can't play the no.10 role. I think because Rooney still sees himself as a striker, he doesn't always like dropping off, but under Sir Alex, part of his frustration come from having to play a lot deeper than he did this season, but he proved he could play there, putting in some good performances against City and Chelsea the season before last.
As for Rooney's distribution, yes, he is known for spraying balls out to the wing and getting into the box. That's the 'United way', especially under SAF anyway. Over the years we've been a team that likes to get it wide and cross it in. How many times has Rooney sprayed it out to Valencia, only to get it back and the edge of the area, resulting in a goal? Scholes also used to ping balls out to the flanks. No point playing all this tiki taka rubbish, sometimes resulting in nothing, if we can be more direct. Look at us against Everton. Great possession, kept it well, nice 5 yard passing, but no end product.
I think if we were to add more energy and drive to our midfield in this Summer, Rooney's 'lack' of positioning for a no.10/second striker would be less apparent. I think because over the years we've struggled with this, some say Rooney's not doing enough, but I think if you were to put Rooney in say City's team last season, people be more appreciative of him.
This positioning issue has only been apparent under Moyes from what I've seen. Before that, he would roam, look for space, and hunt for the "hole" like he always did. He also did half of what the primary function of a #10 was (the first half). This is the reason why he's done well with every single forward partner he's played with and the reason why Sir Alex has frequently played Rooney + a striker (even if his partnership with van Persie wasn't as good as that with other forwards).
His distribution and on-the-ball technique, however, is what does not make him a #10 nor one of the best in that role (though he is still good at it but not great). Even though he is able to get several assists from open play, his vision and passing isn't what it used to be. His technique also lets him down frequently. In this day and age, when the space between the defence and midfield is more compact than before, his average technique on the ball isn't enough for him as a #10.
In short, Rooney is good as a #10, but to say he's world class in that role is an exaggeration. He's better off as a false 9 where distribution and on-the-ball technique isn't at such high requirements as it is for a #10.
He plays in a number 10 role despite him not being a very good number 10.
Rooney was incredibly overrated as a young player and this has created ridiculous expectations to level of Messi and Ronaldo. I have heard people on this board say in all seriousness that Rooney had more potential than Ronaldo. That's laughable. Rooney had a better footballing brain and a much better passer but other than that it was plain to see that Ronaldo had it all to be the best in the world.
Rooney was a very exciting young player at Everton and was worthy of the big move to United and there is no doubt that the 30 million was a bargain. However, Rooney as a young player lost the ball just as much as he beat players. He was also a poor finisher, often missing one on one chances. He did score many screamers which added to the hype. Rooney in those days would go weeks without scoring and was petulant to embarrassing degrees.
Everything with Rooney is over-hyped - how good he is, how bad he is, his contract situation, his personal life etc.
I've stated in other threads that it is strange that Rooney was shifted positions after the 2010 season which saw Rooney score over 30 goals as lone striker. Valencia and Nani dominated and Rooney altered his game to become one of the best strikers around. Rooney even became an aerial master with a poacher's deadly instinct.
Rooney never should have switched back to the No 10 role. Yes I know it worked well with Chicharito but we ultimately got found out against Barca.
Rooney's versatility and willingness to play anywhere has really hampered his career. He should be the main striker and it is very obvious. Watch the 2010 season and the World Cup qualifying that season. Rooney's runs and finishing was amazing. He wasn't beating players or scoring screamers but he was scarily clinical and his heading and close finishing was as good as you will see.
Fergie should have built the side around Rooney as the main striker. It's hard to knock Fergie, but he got that wrong.
Rooney was a very exciting young player at Everton and was worthy of the big move to United and there is no doubt that the 30 million was a bargain. However, Rooney as a young player lost the ball just as much as he beat players. He was also a poor finisher, often missing one on one chances. He did score many screamers which added to the hype. Rooney in those days would go weeks without scoring and was petulant to embarrassing degrees.
Everything with Rooney is over-hyped - how good he is, how bad he is, his contract situation, his personal life etc.
I've stated in other threads that it is strange that Rooney was shifted positions after the 2010 season which saw Rooney score over 30 goals as lone striker. Valencia and Nani dominated and Rooney altered his game to become one of the best strikers around. Rooney even became an aerial master with a poacher's deadly instinct.
Rooney never should have switched back to the No 10 role. Yes I know it worked well with Chicharito but we ultimately got found out against Barca.
Rooney's versatility and willingness to play anywhere has really hampered his career. He should be the main striker and it is very obvious. Watch the 2010 season and the World Cup qualifying that season. Rooney's runs and finishing was amazing. He wasn't beating players or scoring screamers but he was scarily clinical and his heading and close finishing was as good as you will see.
Fergie should have built the side around Rooney as the main striker. It's hard to knock Fergie, but he got that wrong.
I wonder how much it will affect his psychologically that RVP is bonding so much with LVG and had such a great start to the World Cup while playing in the 9 role Rooney wishes he could pin down for United. He must be aware that come next season he's going to have to make some big compromises or play out of his skin to get anywhere near that striker spot.
It'll probably have the same sort of reaction that RvP had with Moyes. Both are very similar in that sense; both want to be main man and both are rather petulant when they don't get it.
I agree, in part, on your last point but the fact is that Rooney was rubbish in the first half of 2010-11 as the main striker making it impossible to build anything around him as the main striker . However I often wonder what would have happened if we had signed a top class #10 to play behind him and got ourselves a box to box midfield player, that summer !
After seeing the dutch team in action yesterday I completely agree that Rooney would be best as a false 9. He would get to play in the center, and can still withdraw and look to get involved. RVP should play as a wide forward where he could make runs inside from a wider position as he did yesterday. Obviously Holland played a 5-2-3 formation which eliminated the 3rd midfielder but at OT with a 4-3-3, Mata could be used as the 3rd midfielder and look to play make from a deeper position. Often it has been suggested that either Rooney or RVP should play but I think that all 3 (inc Mata) can be incorporated into the system and be brilliant.
Very well thought out answer.
I've often seen van Persie drift out wide and then try to make a run in or get a cross in. If van Gaal desires, van Persie can be a very good wide forward. van Persie's very good in 1-on-1's and still has a very good cross in him. Playing Rooney in his best role (false 9) would also be of huge benefit to us as it would mean that van Persie would be in goalscoring positions frequently.
Great cross for Sturridge, but overall a disappointing half defensively for him. Not something you expect from him.
I might be exaggerating but it feels like Rooney has been poor defensively in almost every big game since mid-2011.
Maybe. I'm not entirely sure on every big game, but I think Barcelona (2011 CL Final) onward, he hasn't been the same defensively. It's disappointing to watch, knowing that he is much better than this.
Sturridge is class, Rooney's just slowly fading away.
A joke that he doesn't get taken off today.
I really hope Rooney gets a goal to shut all you feckers up. He's been decent today, got an excellent assist and yet you still see all these united fans shitting on him. feck off.
Last seasons poor form makes sense when you see this Rooney and our defensive forward Welbeck!
The same laboured, slow performances he put in throughout the whole season. I'm amazed at some people still can't see it. Busted flush.
What are people expecting? he was playing left back first half against a team that attacked down their right with 3 players. Maybe he should be making tackles at the back, creating chances through the middle and also be in side the box to be a goal threat?
I dont see the point of picking him to play that role, he may as well have played Baines at wing back with Shaw at LB.
I dont see the point of picking him to play that role, he may as well have played Baines at wing back with Shaw at LB.
Neymar, Messi, Ronaldo, Ballotelli, RvP, Rooney (spot the odd one)
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