What?
Kevin doesn't like our Wayne? Bloody hell, he hides it well.
Kevin doesn't like our Wayne? Bloody hell, he hides it well.
Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
- Thread starter gooDevil
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Yeah, how dare he help out in other areas of the pitch instead of staying in one place to please you.
Total hysteria (presuming you mean in the relegation zone, rather than actually relegated by February). Our average points without Rooney starting is 1.5 per game, with Rooney starting it's 1.65. Even if you discount the fact that Rooney didn't play for a run of quite tough matches which would naturally reduce our PPG (Liverpool, Newcastle, Swansea away and Chelsea, as well as Norwich away and Swansea at home), the difference over the season so far would be a solitary 3 points.
Deducting these 3 points would leave us... Still 7th. It really irks me when people believe that a single player is worth 15, 20 or 30 points over the course of a season. For instance the two seasons prior to Ronaldo leaving we attained 87 and 90 points, the two seasons after he left we attained 85 and 80 points. The means that having the best player in the world or Antonio Valencia was worth somewhere between 5-7 points. Cantona was worth 1-2 points over his replacement. For us to be in the relegation zone Rooney would have to be worth 28 points over the course of a season (.73 per game), it's absolutely absurd. Likewise I hate the people that say "we wouldn't have won the League without RVP". Of course we would. Great player's make the difference in a closely fought title race; when you are 11 points clear with a handful of games to go a single player would be irrelevant.
If people really believe that Rooney is worth more than a couple of points a season over a quality replacement then they really should look at the effect even a much more influential player like Cantona or Ronaldo had when they left. Manchester United have gotten rid of far better and far more influential player's than Wayne Rooney and have thrived irrespective. I personally think that the Man City strategy of throwing 50% more than market value in wages at mercenaries to get them to sign is devaluing, which is why I'd kindly tell Wayne Rooney to extend on current terms (which is already more than he's contributed) or do one.
People have this fixed idea on how a number 10 should play and any player who does not conform to that viewpoint is immediately not termed good enough in that position. Rooney plays the role differently to most of the no 10's but is equally effective if not more effective than many of them while scoring more goals and giving hell of a lot more defensively.
The idea that Rooney is not a no 10 is fecking bizarre but then again most posters here very clearly have an agenda against Rooney.
The idea that Rooney is not a no 10 is fecking bizarre but then again most posters here very clearly have an agenda against Rooney.
It's pretty clear that there's a sub-set of people on this forum who've decided that 'number 10' means 'technically superb midget' and are making facile judgements and tedious claims accordingly.
I've never understood the praise players like Rooney and tevez get for putting in a hundred percent effort, surely that should be the absolute minimum and the norm and we should be criticising players that don't rather than making it out to be some exceptional quality? (Not meant as a dig at Rooney by the way)
Cantona retired, Ronaldo left, Keane fought his way out of the squad, RVN fought his way out of the squad.etc
These "better players" (I use quotation marks because I believe they're all brilliant, but different players) all have left of their own accord or doing. We've only "gotten rid of far better and far more influential players" when we absolutely had to. Handing in a transfer request then having doubts 3 years later isn't enough to boot him out of the club, like it or lump it.
Ahhhh the classic "you don't agree with what I say therefore have an agenda" post.
Yes, but it's not often the case, why else would the grafters stand out so much?
Most players put in a shift, not so many bust a gut for the team though.
I agree, don't get me wrong it's one of the things I admire Rooney for myself, I just believe that more players should be the same, if not out of pride and will to win then to justify the obscene wages they earn
Completely unrelated: @kps88 we are waiting for you
Erm no. When you twist everything to suit you, then you clearly have an agenda and this thread has a few of them.
Wasn't aimed at you any rate. You've been one of the more rational posters, strange as it sounds, considering the summer.
We kicked Keane out of the squad for being a disruptive influence. We kicked RVN out of the squad for being a disruptive influence. We kicked Beckham out of the squad for somewhat bringing the club into disrepute. We kicked Stam out of the squad for likewise. These were all player's that were among the best in the world in their position at the time. I personally don't think Rooney is one of the world's best number 9's (RVP, Ibrahimovic, Aguero, Suarez, Messi, Ronaldo, Falcao) or best number 10's (Suarez, Messi, Silva, Fabregas, Ozil, Iniesta, Mata) because of his lack of consistency, however even if you feel his is amongst these players he is no better in these positions than Stam as a CB, Beckham as a winger or RVN as a striker. We got rid of these player's because they were a disruptive influence, but less so in my opinion than Rooney.
I feel Rooney has matched any of them with his antics. Questioning the ability of his teammates, acting idiotic in his personal life which has affected his form, putting in a transfer request after performing terribly for a year, opportunistically backing the club into a corner when we needed him most (post Ronaldo), using the press as a mouthpiece to put pressure on the club, moaning that he's not playing in his favourite position after 6 months of being crap in his favourite position. Even this Summer he made Moyes look like a complete idiot during his press conferences "does Rooney want to stay", followed by stuttering and evading the question "he's training really well". Not to mention he's doing all this whilst being the best paid member of the squad and a senior professional that is supposed to be setting an example to the likes of Januzaj and Zaha.
Now if Rooney got his head down as he has since August, signed a couple of year contract extension (not holding us to ransom, on his current great terms) and tried to repay the faith Moyes has put in him then I think everyone would be delighted. The fact is however that he is again seemingly trying to hold the club to ransom, using his contract situation (rather than previously him being the most marketable name post Ronaldo) to leverage the club. This also would be fine if he was putting in the performances, however he again hasn't been one of the best 10 players in the League (last season he wasn't even top 30-40) this season and is again wanting a salary that is reflective of a Ronaldo or Messi.
It's honestly as if he's saying "I know I haven't been the best player in the League (let alone the world) since 09/10 and I know I haven't even been in the top 10 since 11/12, however my name is Wayne Rooney and you therefore should pay me as if I'm the best, based purely of former glory".
This is where we differ, and a debate about it would be pointless because it's down to personal opinion.
Don't know why you bothered with the rest of it though, it's just waffle. If he was as disruptive an influence as you're claiming he is then he wouldn't be here any more. The fact we're so desperate to keep him isn't because he's Wayne Rooney, it's because he's by far our best player. Now you can twist the facts by saying "Yeah but as a number 9, 10.etc) but that's pointless and irrelevant. He doesn't play a number 10 role, nor a number 9, he plays a free role and fills in wherever he is needed. I feel this will change as we add more quality into our central midfield and get some semblance of stability in defence, but for now he's needed all over the pitch.
This sentiment bothers me, because he's only ever had one season consistently playing in that position, and aside from Messi and Ronaldo it was as good as any of them have managed in an individual season. Had it not been curtailed by that injury it would have been one of the best ever seasons by a United player, for sure.
Had we played him up there consistently I don't doubt for a second he'd be held in much higher esteem (goals tend to do that). I mean, hell, he was better that season than Ruud ever was.
Again this is just a fantasy. Why are you acting like he is the most important player we've ever had? He wasn't one of our best 4 or 5 player's last season and no one has been good these season, hence us wallowing in 7th. So when does he actually have to show that he's our best player to hold this title? He hasn't won any personal awards since 09/10 and he hasn't been voted our best player since 09/10, mainly because he hasn't been that great since then. He had a purple patch 11/12 where he scored tons, but again spent a few months of the season out of form and since then has been merely a good first team player.
The fact that he plays a free role is even more damning, as the player with the most freedom will invariably be the one who stands out in a team (see Bale at Spurs, Mata at Chelsea, Suarez at Liverpool - all PoTY nominees).
I've disagreed with this point many times. Rooney has played as a number nine for 3-4 seasons at United. One season he was World Class, 1.5-2 seasons he put up good numbers without being World Class and one season he was poor. If Rooney was consistently a World Class number 9 he'd have played there since RVN left.
This is just ridiculous, scoring 27 goals in 34 matches isn't a 'purple patch', it's one of the best seasons a striker has ever had in the PL, and he wasn't even playing as one. He didn't win the award that season because the entirety of our fanbase had some kind of mass delusion about the world's most boring winger. It's deeply weird how that season has come to be regarded.
Utter bollocks. He had two runs in that position in 05-06 when Ruud was injured, and then in 06-07 when Saha was injured. Then he had a full season up there after Ronaldo left, before dropping back to play behind Berbatov, Hernandez, Welbeck and RVP respectively. If you were to do his goal stats exclusively for matches where he's been the out and out number 9 they'd be incredible.
Amazing to think how things might have worked out differently if RVP had never come and Rooney had stayed up top. 1) He would have scored a lot more goals and as you said would probably be more appreciated by fans. 2) He might have been happier and not fallen out with SAF. 3) Kagawa might be better integrated into the team.
Ive said it many times and I will say it again: I firmly believe that those goals RVP scored that everyone says won us the league last year, I think Rooney would have scored just as many. Of course, if RVP had ended up at City that might have changed things for us... but I prefer to think he would have gone to Juve if not us.
Some quality spin there yet again, just stop, I'm sick of it. We're done here unless you want to quote me on something I actually said? Otherwise it's just pathetic.
Most important player at the moment does not equal most important player we've ever had.
Imagine if instead of RVP we'd signed a young CM for the same money. We were always going to win the league last year with or without RVP, and we'd been in a much stronger position now.
Like a traditional 4 4 2?
We'd have mata and janujaz on the wings so not really no.
@paceme
With two creative players like Mata and Januzaj we'd need very reliable full backs and super energetic midfielders who can cover positions, those two midfielders would also need to have the better of the opposing midfield. As it stands, we don't have one midfielder capable for such a role. I don't even know if acquiring two of them is a possibility.
Rooney also doesn't always drop deep when deployed in the #10 slot.
I think it's more natural given the players we've got to play a more fluid 4231, but even that requires a better midfield and a more reliable delivery from the full backs in the attacking third (not to mention positioning when defending - which has been a weak point down our left side for a while now).
With two creative players like Mata and Januzaj we'd need very reliable full backs and super energetic midfielders who can cover positions, those two midfielders would also need to have the better of the opposing midfield. As it stands, we don't have one midfielder capable for such a role. I don't even know if acquiring two of them is a possibility.
Rooney also doesn't always drop deep when deployed in the #10 slot.
I think it's more natural given the players we've got to play a more fluid 4231, but even that requires a better midfield and a more reliable delivery from the full backs in the attacking third (not to mention positioning when defending - which has been a weak point down our left side for a while now).
I imagine that scenario often.
You reckon?
I don't think he was better than RVN in 2002-3.
I actually do. But if we didnt it would be because of how much better RVP would have made City. Hard to say though, they already had very good strikers. If RVP had gone to Juve I think we'd have won it for sure, Rooney would have scored the goals for us. That's my feeling anyway.
The 06/07 season Rooney played as a number 9 for half the season (Saha only started 18 PL games), with the likes of Solksjaer, Ronaldo, Park and Giggs behind him; he had a decent but unspectacular season when in that position. 07/08 season he again played furthest forward, although him and Tevez could arguably both have been deemed "9.5's", he had a good but unspectacular season. 08/09 Rooney played furthest forward more often than not, with Berbatov behind him, another good but unspectacular season. 09/10 he had a great season playing as a 9 the majority of the time.
In this 3 - 3.5 seasons he's looked like a World Class number 9 for one full season and then in flashes (which is exactly the same as his performances anywhere on the pitch: 1/3 World Class, 1/3 out of form, 1/3 good). Again: if he was consistently a World Class number 9 he'd have played only there since 09/10. The fact that he hasn't is the most obvious indictment and along with Fergie and Moyes, 85% of the Cafe agree RVP is a better striker.
Not to mention this season where he's been playing as high up the pitch as our other strikers most of the time (in a much stricter 4-4-2).
"by far our best player"
"Rooney finds himself having to do his job and others most of the time"
"without him we'd probably have been relegated"
You are saying that he is far better than a World Class RVP, Mata or De Gea (I would say it's debatable whether Messi and Ronaldo are far better). You are saying he plays at least 2 positions most of the time and that we'd be 19 points worse off so far this season if not for Rooney.
If those 3 quotes aren't implying that he is one of the most important player's we've ever had then I don't know what is.
Only in hindsight. City started the season as clear favourites and if the League were as close as most expected, RVP would have been the difference.
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First quote is spot on at the moment. Unless you want to argue it?
Second quote is also spot on. Also, unless you have an argument against it?
Third quote is debatable. Fair enough, bit of an exaggeration to be fair.
I am saying he has been much better than them this season. De Gea has been world class too, but doesn't influence the game as much as he's in net, he's been absolute class but he's made mistakes too. Van Persie has been a shadow of last seasons form, which isn't even debatable in my opinion, and Mata has played 3 games, all of which he hasn't been match fit for. We've got the best to come with Mata.
As for the last bit. You're right then, you don't know what is. You're filling in the blanks with complete horse-crap and stating it as something I've definitely said, even though it's just an poorly concluded interpretation. I'd happily debate with you if you had any idea what you were doing, but you don't, so stop.
Not sure about that.
I think @Tomalonge means Rooney's been by far our best player this season? Don't see anything wrong with that.
finneh, if you think Rooney played as a number nine throughout the 07/08 and 08/09 seasons then, tbh, I'm skeptical you were even watching us at the time.
We got the exact same points total in the two seasons, obviously with the caveat that the late-season collapse in form was for very different reasons in each season. More importantly City were gutless last year while we were absolutely obsessesed with maiking up for the year before.
We got the exact same points total in the two seasons, obviously with the caveat that the late-season collapse in form was for very different reasons in each season. More importantly City were gutless last year while we were absolutely obsessesed with maiking up for the year before.
So either way we need better midfielders and full backs.
Thank you! I thought it was understandable enough.
He is the most polarising player I think we have ever had. Some swear by him others can't stand him.
I would rather see him up front when we have a player like Mata in the team.
I would rather see him up front when we have a player like Mata in the team.
You didn't say at the moment: you said he is by far our best player which is why we are so desperate to keep him. If you meant at the moment then fair enough, although I still wouldn't say by far as Januzaj and De Gea have both been very good and I wouldn't say Rooney has been great, hence us being 7th. A consistently World Class Wayne Rooney would have us near Liverpool (ala Suarez). The second quote is also absolute tosh. Of course he doesn't do the job of 2+ players, unless we are now saying that half the team do the job of 2-3 players (Rafael RB/RM/RW, Evra LB/LM/LW, Carrick DM/CM, Mata LW/AM/CM) and a team does 20-30 "jobs" every game.
He's one player that plays a free role.. He doesn't do the job of 2 or more player's, he does the job of one player in an important attacking position. His contributions are no more than the likes of Oscar/Hazard at Chelsea, Ozil/Ramsey at Arsenal, Toure/Aguero at City.
Missed 12 games since 2005.
If I meant best player we've ever had then I'd have bloody said it. You've misinterpreted that on your own, DO NOT blame me for that.
What the hell does that second sentence even mean? Again you've plucked that straight out of thin air. Half the squad doing the work of 2-3 others? No chance, they do their roles very well and fill in elsewhere part of the time and are great in their own right. I haven't seen anyone out of the current squad bar Rooney effectively play in three positions at the same time. He's up front but drops back to midfield and even further to defence consistently. Argue with that if you want, but you're talking bollocks if you do.
The third, well you've clearly got a bias against him to say something like that. I don't like Wayne Rooney the person, but Wayne Rooney the player has been exceptional for us, as I said yesterday; Just because I hate his personality doesn't mean he suddenly becomes lazy or bad at football.
The fact of the matter is that there are as many people who currently hate him as there are people who realise he's going to end up being one of Manchester United's legends at this rate. You've got to get over it mate, you sound like a jilted ex.
I guess it must be your memory then, which is admittedly rather shown by your hazy understanding of the 06/07 season. To wit: "The 06/07 season Rooney played as a number 9 for half the season (Saha only started 18 PL games)"
A little jogging of your memory:
Saha only started 18 matches, sure, but Smith and Larsson started 11 of the other 20. And in 46 of our 60 games in all comps we had one of those undoubted CFs in the starting line-up.
Yet another classic example of making things up to bash Rooney. Though I'll forgive it a little in this case, because I myself earlier described Rooney as having a 'run' up front that season, which it turns out was a mere 6 games in the run-in and a few other matches here and there.
There was definitely an element of Rooney playing in front of Berbatov and Tevez at the time. Not a 9 in the truest sense but he was often the furthest forward striker. Only in 10/11 was Berbatov played as the 9 in front of Rooney.
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