Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

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Pogue Mahone said:
You're not seriously claiming that this is some sort of established fact after watching them play together for three games?

Sorry but that's mental.

You can argue the toss about how well RvP and Rooney work as a partnership because we've more games to analyse. I think it's fair to have doubts about this but our record with both of them in the team, compared to one or other of them missing speaks volumes.
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It's something I thought BEFORE we signed them. With the current players we have around we will not see the best of any of them. The others players just don't compliment them that won't change after 10 matches or even 20 matches.
 
wonnie said:
I think we can fit them all in. Good players know how to play with one another. It's not ideal as one of them will likely to suffer as a result of being shunted from their favourite position but I'd still rather have all of them.
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Other teams don't seem to have much of a problem with taking attacking players, putting them in a basic role on the wing but still allow them to roam freely and play very well. We're just too rigid and not fluid enough with our old wingers system. That's why it'll never work with Kagawa on the left and that's why I doubt we'll get the best out of Mata.
 
The thing with looking at stats, comparing the top 5 players and what not is Rooney has no predefined role in the team. Whereas Van Persie, Mata, Valencia all have nailed down roles, Rooney is just expected to help the team in any way he can. He is a weapon, and when he's out of the United team we look shite. For example, when Van Persie plays without Rooney he is so isolated its unreal. Substitute Van Persie with Suarez and I'd wager Suarez would do more for the team, but still struggle.

There is not a single player in this league who can make the transition during one game from: accomplished forward to a solid No. 10 and then a robust midfielder. Then there is his work ethic which is also very good.

300K might be a bit too much, but as others have pointed out this is all media speculation and if it is 300K, I'm sure that would be the top figure he could earn if he reached in-game targets. Lets not forget, this is WC year and the media will make sure our players receive huge amounts of stick when we fail. Expect Rooney to come home and be the focal point for a shit storm.
 
wonnie said:
I think we can fit them all in. Good players know how to play with one another. It's not ideal as one of them will likely to suffer as a result of being shunted from their favourite position but I'd still rather have all of them.
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We will see, personally I don't feel Rooney and Van Persie work as is. Then adding Mata who then has to play out of position..

Honestly Rooney would be better out wide but that doesn't make sense to put him out there.
 
JaffyJoe said:
A better manager may be able to have it working, but the main problem is a lack of pace/quality around them.
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I think that's the key point. Sure, maybe at some level they may not be the most perfectly compatible three in the world, but you just feel they could be doing better.

I hate to use Liverpool as an example, but look at how they are able to integrate Coutinho, Suarez and Sturridge. Sometimes Coutinho plays behind the two of them, sometimes Suarez and Coutinho both play behind Sturridge. Sometimes Sturridge starts wide right on paper, but then plays the inside right channel high up like a striker. They vary according to need, sometimes sacrificing Sterling on the left for an extra midfielder if they need more solidity.

Or indeed look at our 07-08 team. Ronaldo spent so much time up front, and Tevez and Rooney were both so flexible, that we operated as a 4-3-3 even when we didn't look like it on the team sheet. We used to use Park or even Hargreaves on the wing so they could make a midfield three when Ronaldo went forward - or we'd just sod it and play Nani and go for a mad kind of 4-2-4.

A trio of Mata/RvP/Rooney would operate differently to Ronaldo/Tevez/Rooney - but not so different that a similar approach couldn't work.

To me its just another example of the lack of tactical nous and surprisingly dogmatic approach of David Moyes.
 
Amir said:
Other teams don't seem to have much of a problem with taking attacking players, putting them in a basic role on the wing but still allow them to roam freely and play very well. We're just too rigid and not fluid enough with our old wingers system. That's why it'll never work with Kagawa on the left and that's why I doubt we'll get the best out of Mata.
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If other teams can do it, so can we. There's no better time to adapt our style of play then under a new manager. Granted, there's been no evidence of any fundamental change yet but there are good reasons for Moyes sticking with the style and approach of last season. Not least that we won the league by 11 points.

I'm still hopeful that he'll tear up the script and get the team playing the way he wants them to play, instead of like a pale shadow of a Fergie team. There's still time for this to happen.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It's funny the way opinion shifts on here. I always think there's a theme about whatever we did in the past was better. This intensifies when we're having a poor season. Most recently there's been a theme of 2008 being some sort of divine tiki taka glory, with Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez out-Barca'ing Iniesta and co. In reality, Tevez massively split opinions, lots wrote him off as a work horse with a heavy touch and a poor return in front of goal. Our midfield was a source of constant woe and people used to hark back to how much more exciting Ronaldo was as a winger and wonder why Fergie inisisted on playing Rooney wide left with Ronaldo up top. Not to mention Carlos Querozzzz having a few extra 'z's added to his name because of our incredibly conservative approach in Europe.

Which brings me back to Rooney. I remember when Fergie started playing him as a number 9 and there was outrage at forcing him to play a position that didn't make best use of his talents. People said it was a waste of his ability to score from range, to create goals and orchestrate play from deep. Besides, he was a crap finisher anyway. Thus said the caf.

Now there's an almost unanimous consensus that playing him as a 10 is a complete disaster. That he's a natural as a number 9 and it's ludicrous to ask him to play deeper. The reality, as always, is more complicated. Rooney started this season as a 10 and was sensational in that role. Rolling back the years to his very best performances in that position. Of course, most of the rest of the team was miles off the pace, results didn't go our way and the rot set in throughout the team. Not long after, Rooney got injured and is taking a few weeks to get up to speed (which is usually the case, when he's out for any length of time)

I'm rambling now but my main point is that Rooney is quite capable of playing in either of the two roles up top. And playing very well. It's far too simplistic to imply that he must play in one position or the other. As you will all see when he gets back into his stride and starts hitting some form again.
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Great post Pogue. So you think we just keep plugging away with what we are already doing, be patient and the quality will tell in the end? You think it is all a matter of RVP, Mata and Rooney simultaneously being a little rusty?
 
Adebesi said:
Great post Pogue. So you think we just keep plugging away with what we are already doing, be patient and the quality will tell in the end? You think it is all a matter of RVP, Mata and Rooney simultaneously being a little rusty?
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Yeah, that's my take on it.

I do tend to opt for the glass half full though, when it comes to football. Helps keep me sane!
 
Pogue Mahone said:
If other teams can do it, so can we. There's no better time to adapt our style of play then under a new manager. Granted, there's been no evidence of any fundamental change yet but there are good reasons for Moyes sticking with the style and approach of last season. Not least that we won the league by 11 points.

I'm still hopeful that he'll tear up the script and get the team playing the way he wants them to play, instead of like a pale shadow of a Fergie team. There's still time for this to happen.
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Well, obviously we could do it too with the right manager. Unfortunately Fergie, who seemed to have been left a little behind in terms of tactics and style, chose a successor who appears to suffer from similar problems. I don't know if Moyes can re-invent himself like that. It would be a massive turn around for someone who already has a lot to learn about a job so big without trying to play in a way he hasn't before.
 
I lurch from optimism to pessimism and back several times a day with football, there is no consistency with my outlook. But I suspect that what you say explains a large part of what is going on. Certainly all the Rooney-bashing in here is getting pretty painful, the idea that Rooney is the problem strikes me as quite absurd. But I will feel happier once I have seen our big guns put in a great collective performance.
 
Blue always red said:
There is not a single player in this league who can make the transition during one game from: accomplished forward to a solid No. 10 and then a robust midfielder.
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That's been a massive asset for us, but I reckon Rooney paid a price for it. He hasn't become as good as he could have been and I believe his versatility is a part of it. Midfield, wing, upfront, behind the main striker... Obviously he hasn't played the first two roles that much, but it was always easy to move them and obviously if it was right for the team, it had to be done. But I believe he's have been better if we had just stuck to one position.
 
Im sure that is right. If he had been left in one position for his entire career he would probably be a world beater in that position. As it is he is just extremely good in a whole load of different positions. In that sense it probably isnt entirely his fault that he never quite fulfilled his absolutely huge potential, and "only" became the player he is today. Perhaps he himself feels that way, and thats why he felt so strongly about SAF playing him in midfield last year. Perhaps he wants a bit more consistency in his last years at the top. Either way he is still class and still for me our best player - and his versatility is a huge asset for us.
 
No confirmation yet? So sad. Get the finger out David.
 
JaffyJoe said:
The three of them aren't compatible, that is quite clear. People had misgiving BEFORE Mata came in and it has only proven to be true since. A better manager may be able to have it working, but the main problem is a lack of pace/quality around them. Playing all three the game of one or two of them suffers. We may have been able to manage it if they were surrounded with better players, but they're not. Suggesting we play Rooney upfront (where he has shone previously) and letting one of the best no.10's in Europe play in his first decision is not bad thinking. The only problem is we have Van Persie a world class striker who still needs to get into the team. Like I said I would have no problem with us selling Van Persie and making Rooney-Mata are front two. Time will tell if we actually do it, but it isn't a bad idea.
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I think you are right, JJ. Of course, time will tell, etc.
 
Amir said:
Well, obviously we could do it too with the right manager. Unfortunately Fergie, who seemed to have been left a little behind in terms of tactics and style, chose a successor who appears to suffer from similar problems. I don't know if Moyes can re-invent himself like that. It would be a massive turn around for someone who already has a lot to learn about a job so big without trying to play in a way he hasn't before.
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I think Moyes has been unfairly labelled as being tactically inflexible. That's definitely happened this season. The worse things have got, the more rigidly he's adhered to our approach last season. If/when he can negotiate us out of the current horror show I'm hopeful we'll see a different approach.

Don't forget, Ancelotti rated Everton under Moyes as the most challenging tactical battle of all the PL teams he came up against.

Carlo Ancelotti rated him as the hardest manager to prepare against during his time at Chelsea: astute, flexible and adaptable to circumstances.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...er-David-Moyes-worked-his-way-to-the-top.html
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It's funny the way opinion shifts on here. I always think there's a theme about whatever we did in the past was better.
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It's the same thing that happens in real life, halcyon days of yore and so on. But where in life people always delude their memories of decades past, on here it takes six months at most. The apparently ever-declining Rooney is just the ultimate example of it. Why can't he be more like in his first season, when we were rubbish and he failed to score in 31 of 43 matches. Truly those were his glory days.

Hell, the greatest example of this was when someone was spouting off about how he never seems to score long range goals any more, and I provided proof he'd scored more that season than in any previous one.

Amar__ said:
Yeah, I am lazy, and your explanation was that he is better statistically than the likes of Lambert and Benteke, while ignoring the likes of Mata, Ramsey, Toure, Hazard, Carrick...

I don't feel like having to explain myself why I think these players I mentioned have been better than Rooney in the past two seasons because it's quite obvious to everyone who followed premierleague that the players I mentioned were better players in last two seasons than Rooney, were more important to their team and played better football than him.
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And you can add deceitful or illiterate to those confessions, based on your predictably selective engagement with points I never made. But fair enough, I admire your honesty in admitting you're not worthy of having your posts read.
 
Chabon said:
And you can add deceitful or illiterate to those confessions, based on your predictably selective engagement with points I never made. But fair enough, I admire your honesty in admitting you're not worthy of having your posts read.
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Don't be a twat.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think Moyes has been unfairly labelled as being tactically inflexible. That's definitely happened this season. The worse things have got, the more rigidly he's adhered to our approach last season. If/when he can negotiate us out of the current horror show I'm hopeful we'll see a different approach.

Don't forget, Ancelotti rated Everton under Moyes as the most challenging tactical battle of all the PL teams he came up against.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...er-David-Moyes-worked-his-way-to-the-top.html
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I do think Moyes lacks tactical flexibility. Out of every one of his Everton seasons, the only season I can remember them playing half decent stuff was last season - even then, their play was mostly focused down their left hand side and dependant on the big guy, Fellaini, wreaking havoc.

I can understand Ancelotti's comments, in the sense that Moyes in deed can organize a team and make them extremely hard to beat. But I've never seen him develop attacking play to an extent that'll make you win games easily against most opposition at home. In stead we seem devoid of ideas, despite an abundance of individual attacking talent to choose from.

We've made the margins between victory, draw and defeat so incredibly slim by opting for the percentage game. It cost us because we're individually, technically superior to most teams. Why take away some of that individual quality by throwing the dice, putting balls into the mixer as our main (sometimes only) way of attacking?

There's no tactical variety to David Moyes's teams in an attacking sense. No plan B, no other way of playing if the main plan isn't working. Which is why teams have cottoned on to this, stops us from getting into good crossing positions and hits us on the counter. It's why Fulham could line up with double full-backs and a poor CB who's good at heading things away and snatch a point from us.

If teams had to think about a variety of threats no one would do what Fulham did - it would be suicide.
 
Adebesi said:
Even over Rafa? Wow, that is some compliment.
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Indeed it is. Have tried digging out an article with the actual quote from Ancelotti but no joy. Have seen it referred to in a few different pieces though. In another one, it gave the impression that where Ancelotti thought Moyes posed the most problems was his ability to adapt formation and tactics on the hoof, during games.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Indeed it is. Have tried digging out an article with the actual quote from Ancelotti but no joy. Have seen it referred to in a few different pieces though. In another one, it gave the impression that where Ancelotti thought Moyes posed the most problems was his ability to adapt formation and tactics on the hoof, during games.
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It might be that he doesn't feel he's had enough time to instil that sort of flexibility in the players yet. Equally, it could be argued that his decisions and tactical nous have been poorer since he got here, which I suppose could suggest he's being overwhelmed by the job.
 
Chabon said:
Yeah, I'm the twat, not the one who insists he doesn't have to justify himself because his opinions are so self-evidently more valid than some he pretended I had.
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Yes, you are, you're being an arrogant twat to him, you may not agree with what he says or his argument but calling him illiterate and being sarcastic is far more twattish than anything he's done. It's typical from you really, can't have a debate about your beloved Rooney without getting a horn and trying to ass pound anyone who disagrees with you.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Indeed it is. Have tried digging out an article with the actual quote from Ancelotti but no joy. Have seen it referred to in a few different pieces though. In another one, it gave the impression that where Ancelotti thought Moyes posed the most problems was his ability to adapt formation and tactics on the hoof, during games.
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As opposed to the disgruntled fan (was it someone on here or that open letter?) who suggested his go-to in-game tactical switch was to push up Fellaini and throw on another tall striker.

Maybe we'll buy some tall strikers.
 
Cina said:
Yes, you are, you're being an arrogant twat to him, you may not agree with what he says or his argument but calling him illiterate and being sarcastic is far more twattish than anything he's done. It's typical from you really, can't have a debate about your beloved Rooney without getting a horn and trying to ass pound anyone who disagrees with you.
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This is strangely homoerotic...
 
Brophs said:
It might be that he doesn't feel he's had enough time to instil that sort of flexibility in the players yet. Equally, it could be argued that his decisions and tactical nous have been poorer since he got here, which I suppose could suggest he's being overwhelmed by the job.
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Yeah, that last bit is the elephant in the room for me. I'm trying hard to ignore it but it is a real concern. Although, I guess that feeling of being overwhelmed might ease with the passage of time.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, that last bit is the elephant in the room for me. I'm trying hard to ignore it but it is a real concern. Although, I guess that feeling of being overwhelmed might ease with the passage of time.
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I suppose whatever happens he needs a good summer and start to the season. So far he's gotten a very easy ride from the press. If we're out of the top 3 or 4 this time in October or November I think we're going to see a blanket media coverage of how he's not the man for the job. I'm struggling to think of too many managers in modern times that have been able to completely turn around that sort of public opinion.
 
marjen said:
I can understand Ancelotti's comments, in the sense that Moyes in deed can organize a team and make them extremely hard to beat. But I've never seen him develop attacking play to an extent that'll make you win games easily against most opposition at home. In stead we seem devoid of ideas, despite an abundance of individual attacking talent to choose from.
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Exactly. Moyes has done very well indeed in a team that you'd expect to be more reactive than active, especially when it plays the big guns. Moyes has also made it very difficult on us and has turned the table on United a couple of famous times. But now he's managing a team that needs to take the initiative in just about every match. And that's new to him as well. So Carlo's praise, while well deserve, may not really have too much meaning regarding Moyes's relevant abilities when it comes to United.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It's funny the way opinion shifts on here. I always think there's a theme about whatever we did in the past was better. This intensifies when we're having a poor season. Most recently there's been a theme of 2008 being some sort of divine tiki taka glory, with Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez out-Barca'ing Iniesta and co. In reality, Tevez massively split opinions, lots wrote him off as a work horse with a heavy touch and a poor return in front of goal. Our midfield was a source of constant woe and people used to hark back to how much more exciting Ronaldo was as a winger and wonder why Fergie inisisted on playing Rooney wide left with Ronaldo up top. Not to mention Carlos Querozzzz having a few extra 'z's added to his name because of our incredibly conservative approach in Europe.

Which brings me back to Rooney. I remember when Fergie started playing him as a number 9 and there was outrage at forcing him to play a position that didn't make best use of his talents. People said it was a waste of his ability to score from range, to create goals and orchestrate play from deep. Besides, he was a crap finisher anyway. Thus said the caf.

Now there's an almost unanimous consensus that playing him as a 10 is a complete disaster. That he's a natural as a number 9 and it's ludicrous to ask him to play deeper. The reality, as always, is more complicated. Rooney started this season as a 10 and was sensational in that role. Rolling back the years to his very best performances in that position. Of course, most of the rest of the team was miles off the pace, results didn't go our way and the rot set in throughout the team. Not long after, Rooney got injured and is taking a few weeks to get up to speed (which is usually the case, when he's out for any length of time)

I'm rambling now but my main point is that Rooney is quite capable of playing in either of the two roles up top. And playing very well. It's far too simplistic to imply that he must play in one position or the other. As you will all see when he gets back into his stride and starts hitting some form again.
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I don't think there's many people (if any) who actually think that.

Most people tend to think that we played lovely stuff in 06/07, were often attractive but more often effective in the period after (and very successful), with the small sample of the beginning of 2011/12 being wonderfully exciting and the last few being very poor in terms of entertaining football.
 
Eyepopper said:
Jerseys with Rooneys name were the second most popular jersey sold by PL clubs last season.

A Utd jersey with 'Rooney' on the back is the most popular jersey ever in the PL.
http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/...ney-shirt-most-popular-in-league-history.html
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Shirt sales for 20 seasons of Premier League.

1. Wayne Rooney
2. Steven Gerrard
3. Fernando Torres
4. Christiano Ronaldo
5. Frank Lampard

I would just like to know who is buying Torres shirts? Sure as hell its not Chelsea fans.
 
Amir said:
Exactly. Moyes has done very well indeed in a team that you'd expect to be more reactive than active, especially when it plays the big guns. Moyes has also made it very difficult on us and has turned the table on United a couple of famous times. But now he's managing a team that needs to take the initiative in just about every match. And that's new to him as well. So Carlo's praise, while well deserve, may not really have too much meaning regarding Moyes's relevant abilities when it comes to United.
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My thoughts as well.
 
Amir said:
Exactly. Moyes has done very well indeed in a team that you'd expect to be more reactive than active, especially when it plays the big guns. Moyes has also made it very difficult on us and has turned the table on United a couple of famous times. But now he's managing a team that needs to take the initiative in just about every match. And that's new to him as well. So Carlo's praise, while well deserve, may not really have too much meaning regarding Moyes's relevant abilities when it comes to United.
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I hear "reactive" being used as a criticism of Moyes as a manager a lot. Which kind of ignores that that is exactly how Mourinho approaches the game. Adapting his approach and tactics depending on who they are playing. You could argue this is a strength, rather than a weakness.

Anyhoo. This is getting off-topic.

Wayne Rooney...
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I hear "reactive" being used as a criticism of Moyes as a manager a lot. Which kind of ignores that that is exactly how Mourinho approaches the game. Adapting his approach and tactics depending on who they are playing...
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Moyes and Mourinho got their coaching badges from the same centre in Largs. Sounds about right.
 
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