Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

Status
Not open for further replies.
noodlehair said:
Yeah, but again, all of the problems we have in midfield this season, we had last season just the same. They wont go away by playing Rooney deeper or not playing him...all that will happen is Rooney will leave and then we'll still have to try and sort out the midfield anyway.

It's a feeble scapegoat excuse for our poor results, designed so that people can blame them on Rooney. Rooney's positioning didn't cause Rio Ferdinand or Ashley Young to consistently fail to play to a basic competent level. Rooney's positioning didn't cause our defence to keep trying to play out from the back at a slower tempo than any other team on earth.

Our two worst performances have been at Anfield and the Etihad...Rooney didn't play in one and didn't play with Van Persie in the other, so whatever's going on it's pretty clear it's not a product of Wayne Rooney not wanting to play in a position he's rubbish in anyway, and which he never played in to begin with until last season. I would say it's a lot more to do with just a general continuation of our lacklustre performances from last season (particularly towards the end), and other teams not being so forgiving when it comes to punishing them this season.
Click to expand...

Has anyone actually tried to argue that every single thing wrong with United this season is due to Rooney playing higher up? If so I'm yet to see it. What people have noted is that the midfield is often isolated from the attack because both strikers are generally playing quite high up the pitch without a link in behind which makes our play through the middle less fluid and leaves the CMs isolated and outnumbered in midfield particularly against teams who pack their midfields. It makes the passing in midfield that bit slower because there isn't an immediate option there for the CMs.

It's just an observation, another one is the wingers both playing far out wide against Southampton when there are benefits of them drifting inside from time to time (not necessarily too narrow), that's how Adnan got his two goals against Southampton and it enables better play in midfield as it bring them closer to the two CMs so they have more immediate available options closer to them.

Evra's high early crosses are something else that we could improve on. Iweve put in the most crosses in the PL (last time I looked) and I think Evra has made the most key passes per game out of all of our players, but our strikers rarely score from those type of high early crosses into the box, yet we can be a threat from the low crosses/cut-backs like Evras for Januzaj's first Sunderland goal or Valencia's for RvP at Stamford bridge last season (or those for Rooney's two at the Etihad).

Gary Neville spoke on MUTV about the speed of passing in our midfield being too slow, Rooney isn't to blame for this but him dropping more often to ofer himself as an outlet coule help us improve in this area because sometimes our CMs do look slow and ponderous because there isn't always an immediate option for them to pass to. It's worse without Cleverley I'm the side imo. Neville pointed out that Fellaini isn't used to the speed of passing required here yet, which is a good point.

Last season when RvP played behind Hernandez (when Rooney was injured over Xmas I think) I remember saying at the time that we lacked in midfield a bit because RvP played higher up than the way Rooney played the number 10 role last season. In those games RvP was basically a second striker like Rooney hasfbeen this season, but last season Rooney was playing as more of a #10 than he is now. We won almost all of those games with RvP and Chicharito though (with the exception of Nowrich away iirc) so there was little fuss.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
LR7 its quite obvious you dislike Rooney but he is the last player that needs to be blamed for our poor form.
Click to expand...

If you actually read the post, even the first line is suggesting nobody is blaming all our poor form on Rooney.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
LR7 its quite obvious you dislike Rooney but he is the last player that needs to be blamed for our poor form.
Click to expand...

Nobody is blaming him. :wenger: They are just saying that his switch to be further forward this season is a tactical error for the team. He's played well individually, but as a team the change hasn't been beneficial
 
Ekeke said:
Nobody is blaming him. :wenger: They are just saying that his switch to be further forward this season is a tactical error for the team. He's played well individually, but as a team the change hasn't been beneficial
Click to expand...

Well then why not have this conversation about RVP then? why doesn't he ever drop back to get the ball? Why is it Rooney not dropping deep enough that's the cause for all wrong?

"He can play on the left side of midfield, as a creative player behind the main strikers or as a target man."- Arsene Wenger
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Well then why not have this conversation about RVP then? why doesn't he ever drop back to get the ball? Why is it Rooney not dropping deep enough that's the cause for all wrong?

"He can play on the left side of midfield, as a creative player behind the main strikers or as a target man."- Arsene Wenger
Click to expand...

Because RVP is the best striker in the league and thats where we bought him to play like last season. Rooney is clearly still deeper than RVP, your idea makes no sense at all
 
Ekeke said:
Because RVP is the best striker in the league and thats where we bought him to play like last season. Rooney is clearly still deeper than RVP, your idea makes no sense at all
Click to expand...

Ruud was also the best striker in the league but he used to drop back, what I'm saying is we've had about 10 pages of how selfish Rooney is for not playing deep that's why we not creating chances etc etc etc, in fact he is practically the only player that moves around the pitch, Carrick is static so is Fellaini, our wingers on which we have relied on are of form even RVP is missing sitters but no its Rooney playing to high up.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Ruud was also the best striker in the league but he used to drop back a lot, what I'm saying is we've had about 10 pages of how selfish Rooney is for not playing deep that's why we not creating chances etc etc etc, in fact he is practically the only player that moves around the pitch, Carrick is static so is Fellaini, our wingers on which we have relied on are of form even RVP is missing sitters but no its Rooney playing to high up.
Click to expand...


RVP drops more than Ruud did. I dont think Rooney is exactly ignoring Moyes asking him to play deeper like he normally has. I'm sure Moyes is well aware that Rooney is playing further forward and its probably a lot to do with his comments in the summer about Rooney scoring more goals.

However, that doesn't mean that the team will benefit.

Essentially we're still reliant on Rooney dropping into the hole and linking midfield and attack. A) Because we didn't sign a midfielder who does this, we signed Fellaini. Fabregas would have done... Ander too. but B) Because whoever plays in Rooney's position dropping off the other striker is expected to be the one that provides options for a pass in that space. When Hernandez and RVP played together last season Van Persie would drop into that space. With RVP and Rooney, Rooney is expected to play as the 10 because he's better at it, while RVP is expected to play leading the line because he's not only better at it, but also the best in the league at it
 
Ekeke said:
RVP drops more than Ruud did. I dont think Rooney is exactly ignoring Moyes asking him to play deeper like he normally has. I'm sure Moyes is well aware that Rooney is playing further forward and its probably a lot to do with his comments in the summer about Rooney scoring more goals.

However, that doesn't mean that the team will benefit.

Essentially we're still reliant on Rooney dropping into the hole and linking midfield and attack. A) Because we didn't sign a midfielder who does this, we signed Fellaini. Fabregas would have done... Ander too. but B) Because whoever plays in Rooney's position dropping off the other striker is expected to be the one that provides options for a pass in that space. When Hernandez and RVP played together last season Van Persie would drop into that space. With RVP and Rooney, Rooney is expected to play as the 10 because he's better at it, while RVP is expected to play leading the line because he's not only better at it, but also the best in the league at it
Click to expand...

Can't disagree with that.
 
ghaliboy said:
pfkk.png
Click to expand...

Damn! this is serious business snow, The Predator is tracking Rooney, he better get to the tha choppa!
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Rooney has been dropping deep to get the ball no matter what Moneymays glowing blobs show. And why is he being compared to Ozi? We are playing a 442 and Ozil is playing in a 451 formation.

Nobody expected York or Cole to drop deep, or Sheringham or Soljkaer or any of our other strikers when we played 442 in the past it was the midfields job to get the ball forward, he should just stay up front score goals and put pressure on defences and instead let our midfield do what its supposed to do.
Click to expand...

What a ridiculous thing to say. Rooney is not dropping as deep as last season is the point. The fact you ignore that he spent a lot of time in the box against Sunderland isn't surprising at all. I've also given Rooney the benefit of doubt, but hold on, why the hell is he playing further ahead in the last two games? See these videos:





There is a fundamental difference to his play in the last two games.
 
Sir A1ex said:
Fair enough, you're singing from a different hymn sheet to these guys...
Click to expand...

You said you hate Rooney, no? Yet you're defending him for his poor performances in the last three games, that makes sense. Actually, you have to think for yourself on this one. Why has Moyes suddenly allowed Januzaj and Nani to drift in to accommodate the space in the middle, while Rooney plays high? I'll stick by what I said. At the start, I did say it's Moyes tactics that are hindering our player, so I did give Rooney the benefit of doubt. But I'm not convinced at all.
 
MoneyMay said:
You said you hate Rooney, no? Yet you're defending him for his poor performances in the last three games, that makes sense.
Click to expand...

Hate may be a strong word, but I'm certainly no fan of Rooney as a person, he gets right on my tits and Id' ahve been happy to see him go in the summer. But I am able to seperate that from an objective assesment of his performance on the pitch. The above sentence explains your point of view, as the whole concept of being able to seperate these things clearly baffles you. Fair enough, you're far from alone on here in that respect.

MoneyMay said:
At the start, I did say it's Moyes tactics that are hindering our player, so I did give Rooney the benefit of doubt. But I'm not convinced at all.
Click to expand...

To be clear, is Moyes telling him to play deeper and Rooney is just ignoring him, or is Rooney winning the decision pre-match - ie telling Moyes he wont play deeper and Moyes giving in and saying OK, play up front with RVP?
 
Sir A1ex said:
Hate may be a strong word, but I'm certainly no fan of Rooney as a person, he gets right on my tits and Id' ahve been happy to see him go in the summer. But I am able to seperate that from an objective assesment of his performance on the pitch. The above sentence explains your point of view, as the whole concept of being able to seperate these things clearly baffles you. Fair enough, you're far from alone on here in that respect.



To be clear, is Moyes telling him to play deeper and Rooney is just ignoring him, or is Rooney winning the decision pre-match - ie telling Moyes he wont play deeper and Moyes giving in and saying OK, play up front with RVP?
Click to expand...


I don't hate any player at all, nor do I have any dislike for any player. I am in a similar position to you. It really doesn't baffle me at all. I just remember saying you disliked him, or something like that, but you failed to acknowledge he was poor in our last three games. There is a big difference. I'm sure everyone knows that, and it would help if you didn't make things like it baffles me up.

In the Moyes tactician thread, I said that these are instructions from Moyes, I gave Rooney the benefit of doubt... And I've still maintained this opinion. Most of the time, a player doesn't follow a manager's instruction to defend, so it's definitely not Rooney travelling a different route to what's being said to him. Additionally, he played as a second striker vs. Chelsea, Bayer Leverkusen, Crystal Palace, and Liverpool. This change has been more prominent in the last two games. Instead of Rooney picking up the ball from Carrick/Fellaini/Cleverley, he's high up the pitch, as I've shown through screen shots and heat maps. He's certainly been more direct.
 
It's undeniable that Rooney's stance on the positional issue leaves Moyes' hands a bit tied in that regard.

I know Moyes didn't have two strikers the calibre of RvP and Rooney at Everton, so it's a bit different in some ways, but he rarely played two strikers up top the way Rooney and RvP have been in the last few games. I always remember there being a Fellaini type behind the striker who is effectively a third midfielder who pushed up into the space behind the striker and made runs into the box when they attacked rather than mostly being high up the pitch making runs behind the CBs. Can Moyes ask Rooney to play deeper? Can he change the formation with both Rooney and RvP on the pitch? He's quite limited in what he can and can't to without risking a fall-out if he leaves Rooney out or shifts him out of position.

It's for this reason imo some people wish he was sold in summer rather than any irrational dislike of Rooney. As good a player as he is (when his first touch isn't as disgusting as it was against Southampton) some think the team balance, especially in regard to support for the midfield and linking the play might improve without him, especially given where he has currently been playing.
 
LR7 said:
It's undeniable that Rooney's stance on the positional issue leaves Moyes' hands a bit tied in that regard.

I know Moyes didn't have two strikers the calibre of RvP and Rooney at Everton, so it's a bit different in some ways, but he rarely played two strikers up top the way Rooney and RvP have been in the last few games. I always remember there being a Fellaini type behind the striker who is effectively a third midfielder who pushed up into the space behind the striker and made runs into the box when they attacked rather than mostly being high up the pitch making runs behind the CBs. Can Moyes ask Rooney to play deeper? Can he change the formation with both Rooney and RvP on the pitch? He's quite limited in what he can and can't to without risking a fall-out if he leaves Rooney out or shifts him out of position.

It's for this reason imo some people wish he was sold in summer rather than any irrational dislike of Rooney. As good a player as he is (when his first touch isn't as disgusting as it was against Southampton) some think the team balance, especially in regard to support for the midfield and linking the play might improve without him, especially given where he has currently been playing.
Click to expand...
Hasn't Rooney been playing pretty deep though? Actually, RvP has dropped pretty deep at times too.

The problem for me is their partnership, it should work, I think given their skillsets they should compliment each other really well, but they both seem to want to do the exact same things and move into the exact same positions on the field. It needs to be clarified who does what, really.

I think Rooney does effectively need to be played as a third midfielder but he just won't do it, in fact he seems to feel his best position is as a lone targetman now (probably why he wanted to go to Chelsea so much).
 
Cina said:
Hasn't Rooney been playing pretty deep though? Actually, RvP has dropped pretty deep at times too.

The problem for me is their partnership, it should work, I think given their skillsets they should compliment each other really well, but they both seem to want to do the exact same things and move into the exact same positions on the field. It needs to be clarified who does what, really.

I think Rooney does effectively need to be played as a third midfielder but he just won't do it, in fact he seems to feel his best position is as a lone targetman now (probably why he wanted to go to Chelsea so much).
Click to expand...

There has been too much space between the strikers and the CMs in the last couple of games because Rooney has been higher up than usual. Against Chelsea I think he did play deeper but if you have a look at MoneyMay's post in the Moyes tactician thread you'll see that he's been a lot higher. It doesn't show every touch, but the graphics below show Rooney vs Southampton and Özil vs Norwich from this weekend gone and it's easy to see that they play the number ten role differently, Özil has more presence inside his own half picking up the ball closer to his CMs.

qaqsbo7
kmszxcw
 
LR7 said:
There has been too much space between the strikers and the CMs in the last couple of games because Rooney has been higher up than usual. Against Chelsea I think he did play deeper but if you have a look at MoneyMay's post in the Moyes tactician thread you'll see that he's been a lot higher. It doesn't show every touch, but the graphics below show Rooney vs Southampton and Özil vs Norwich from this weekend gone and it's easy to see that they play the number ten role differently, Özil has more presence inside his own half picking up the ball closer to his CMs.

qaqsbo7
kmszxcw
Click to expand...
Yeah I saw them already, and you're right, he should be playing deeper, because neither Fellaini or Carrick will move up high enough to bridge that gap, it's been a big problem for us.
 
From the Sky Sports transfer thingy:

Sir Alex Ferguson has insisted that his relationship with Wayne Rooney remains fractured because of money. The former Manchester United manager fell out his star striker last season over his form and fitness and has consistently claimed the 27-year-old said he wanted to leave the club.
My memory is he asked away because, he said, he was not going to play in his proper position. I can understand that. That's not a problem with me. I can only go on evidence on the football field. He wasn't playing well enough.​
Click to expand...
Mentions of money: zero.
 
Cina said:
Yeah I saw them already, and you're right, he should be playing deeper, because neither Fellaini or Carrick will move up high enough to bridge that gap, it's been a big problem for us.
Click to expand...

I also think that's its a problem if we're bring overrun in the centre in the first half playing 4-4-2, and Moyes decides he wants to change the shape/formation at half time to address the problem and help us win the midfield battle, he's stuck unless he takes one of Rooney/RvP off because Rooney's already come out and said that he's only willing to drop into midfield or play on the left to close games out in the last 10 mins.

It leaves us inflexible really which is a shame. There are some teams where playing 4-4-2 will be enough to beat them, but others where the midfield will need a bit more to really take control of the game and dominate. I posted an article from the summer where Moyes' view is that games are won and lost in midfield and if the opposition plays two in there you want to play three (something along those lines) - he's unable to do that here atm.
 
Cina said:
Yeah I saw them already, and you're right, he should be playing deeper, because neither Fellaini or Carrick will move up high enough to bridge that gap, it's been a big problem for us.
Click to expand...

Just to add to this, Herrera would have made sense. What this system lacks is a midfielder than will dribble with the ball and, ironically, he is the midfielder with the right skill set to help us attack with fluidity. Carrick can stay as he is, he's excellent, but without Cleverley, our midfield is pretty poor.
 
Rooney has this thing about if he drops deep to get the ball or make himself available he is playing in midfield. I don't see it that way. A midfielder to me is someone who starts in midfield and links the defence to the forward. That they mainly stay round the midfield area. Rooney comes looking for the ball. Of course he shouldn't need to do this as the midfield should be getting the ball to him while he is further up the field. Rooney is probably misunderstanding the situation, which is not of his making. A lot of these problems are from Sir Alex not dealing with the midfield and Rooney not feeling he should be having to link the play. I am sure I have tied myself in knots here. :):confused:
 
Nah, I don't think he minds dropping deep and linking play but at United he has to drop way too deep because the midfielders are too deep themselves and immobile especially if its Carrick and Fellaini or Carrick and Jones at the end of last season. Maybe if we had signed Herrera and he was a success then we wouldn't be having these problems.
 
MoneyMay said:
http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/8985699/the-sir-alex-ferguson-interview

Fergie says that Rooney wanted to leave because he wasn't playing in his "proper position" (7:30 onwards). Does he mean second striker or centre-forward? I would assume it's the latter since that is his proper position, no? If my assumption is correct, then that explains why he's playing high. Plus, Rooney did say he needed to be more selfish...
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure it's the last run of games when he was playing beside Carrick in a midfield two?
edit: it was only 3-4 games, mind.
 
Gets the start after being crap for the last 3 or 4 matches. Hopefully he does something.
 
Now THAT was the Wayne Rooney of old
 
memories of Rooney against Wigan from about 2005

awesome - Rooney is so improved this year
 
Nice to he him dropping much deeper into midfield and with Kagawa drifting centrally (especially early on) made our passing so much better in midfield.
 
Rooney when he was 16/17 that goal. I'm saying goal because he deserves a goal for that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.