It's not his position in the list that's relevant, it's who he's ahead of.
Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
- Thread starter gooDevil
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Absolutely agree but then we know this anyway so what's the point in even debating it? The standards for Rooney on here are far higher than that of someone like Tevez, Kompany or Mata partly because he plays as both a midfielder and striker and people expect him to fulfil both roles just as well, partly because he's England's best player and partly because he's simply one of our players so every poor performance is analysed to death, IMO. Rooney's performances in that half-season in 10/11 were so far above anything that Tevez showed that I find it hard to believe anyone can say Tevez was the better player with a straight face. Kompany last season looked substandard on the European stage - which can't be said of Rooney even though we struggled - while Rooney's top class goals total is remarkably downplayed. Kompany being the best of a poor bunch of defender's elevates him to a level he never really reached. Not a chance were either of the City two better than him for me, Silva is the only one in that bracket but isn't mentioned because his inconsistency would expose the flaws in the argument.
That list is just ridiculous - it values form over long-term contribution. Mata could be the second best player this season but the 10th best last year yet he'll come out looking better than Rooney who was 4th in both years (well, in his view).
If Aguero was here and Rooney was at City people's opinions on them would be completely the opposite. Last season we had a City fan on here saying he's very overrated but that was strangely ignored. There really is this strange attitude towards criticising our own while praising the opposition in some bizarre attempt to be "objective".
Well, form wise = this season. Atleast that's how most people would interpret it I'm guessing.
And ability wise would be over the past two seasons? You still have to show some form to be counted as one of the best in the league is my rationale - i.e. before Vidic's comeback there were questions about whether he could return to his previous level because he'd been out for so long.
I think to determine the 'best player' you would be looking to pick a player you would build your team around, first name on the XI, who would immediately aid your chase for trophies.
On that basis can't imagine Rooney not being atleast in the top 3.
Rooney is playing below his actual potential at times. He could be a top 5 player in the world if he would play more often to his max imho.
Also, if you watch old clips, he seems to have lost a yard of pace. He used to get past players rather easily, nowadays, he hardly manages to do so
Also, if you watch old clips, he seems to have lost a yard of pace. He used to get past players rather easily, nowadays, he hardly manages to do so
Rooney always tends to get downgraded both in remembering past seasons and when injured, because the things that make his game really special can only be seen when you're watching him, and not in the stats. For long strings of games he drives the whole team forward, and is at the centre of everything good we do. It's not always reflected in the goals and assists, or the passing stats, but it's blindingly obvious to the naked eye.
The thing is I agree with you entirely, but his stats are absolutely incredible. Even this season when he's supposedly been below par.
Yes good point. Good stats from a player who's almost always much better than his stats suggest... seems like he's having a decent season, injuries allowing, to me.
But I don't mind the fact that he gets a good robust cross-examination on here. My own confidence in his brilliance is pretty much unshakeable, so it doesn't matter that others seem to think so little of his contribution. Better that than a RAWK situation where anyone who doesn't think Suarez is second only to Messi gets shouted down.
Best way to think of it is, if you were able to form a team of players currently playing in the EPL, which would be the first few players you pick? Upon thinking about it like that, Rooney would be my first pick.
Your point that Rooney is operating below his maximal level is a valid one and only highlights how good he is. The Rooney that scored twice at Wastelands was not in the same form as the Rooney that stomped all over Arsenal last season or trampled all over Chelsea in the Champions League the season before. When Rooney is at his rampaging best as he was in that crucial game at Upton Park in 2010/11 he's virtually unstoppable.
I think the other thing that strikes you when you watch old videos of Rooney is how good his finishing used to be.
It's not bad, now, obviously, but with the exception of his goal vs City all videos of Rooney's best goals come a long time ago.
I think he's lost his explosiveness, in his shooting, in his dribbling and in his temper and I don't think he'll ever get it back.
He's obviously still a very good player, but when we all thought greatness beckoned for him when we saw him score that worldy against Arsenal for Everton I think we all envisaged he'd grow up to be a very different player to what he has become.
I have been disappointed with Rooney's form this season, simply because of the brilliance of past seasons.
For me, I don't want to see him messing about so deep - he's playing deeper than an orthodox No.10 these days.
He has been eclipsed by RVP's prolific scoring this season, but Rooney would score so much more playing further up.
I think we get plenty of width from our full-backs to play a central two in midfield and then three behind a front two (RVP and Rooney).
Regardless of how strong his work ethic is, I don't want to see Rooney waste his energy in a defensive position.
For me, I don't want to see him messing about so deep - he's playing deeper than an orthodox No.10 these days.
He has been eclipsed by RVP's prolific scoring this season, but Rooney would score so much more playing further up.
I think we get plenty of width from our full-backs to play a central two in midfield and then three behind a front two (RVP and Rooney).
Regardless of how strong his work ethic is, I don't want to see Rooney waste his energy in a defensive position.
All good players tend to follow the same pattern. Explosiveness and brilliant shooting from range benefit from physical youth, and just the right dose of overconfidence. Ronaldo doesn't take on multiple players dribbling any more, but when he was at United that was the defining quality of his game. Rooney's gained plenty of other, subtler things in place of his brilliant goals. Good thing too, because we have RVP for those now.
If the question was something like: As a whole over the last five seasons has Rooney been in the top two players in the Premier League? Then I'd say yes he probably has, but that's not really relevant to right now is it? There's obviously diminishing returns on past achievement in terms of where they leave you just in present. I'd say stuff you've done this season is extremely important, stuff you've done last season is pretty important, stuff you've done the year before that is fairly minor and anything before that isn't relevant at all.
Football changes fast. Nani and Vidic were in the top three players in the league only two years ago, now they wouldn't even make my top 20 or probably even 30. It's obviously not quite as simple as only taking into account current form but when you strike the balance between current form (last few months), recent form (last 12 months) and how a players has performed in the past, with obviously current and recent form being by far the most important then there's no way you can include Rooney in your top 2.
People apply all this logic for players of other clubs. If we asked people to name the best three players in the league (and didn't expand the question anymore than that) then I've no doubt that Kompany and Yaya Toure wouldn't be on many lists, but when it's our own players people are much less willing to ignore the past and look at the present, even if it requires bringing up form from four years ago to show why Rooney is the best (which many on here will argue) or second best player in the league right now.
I think Mata is the second best player in the league, he was pretty good last season probably top 10, and this season he's top 1 or 2. I'd say that makes him the 2nd best player in the league as of 3rd January 2013.
This brings up all sorts of complexities about age, fitting our play style and league etc..
I think Pirlo's clearly a better football player than Rooney is, but he's 33, plays a position we don't use and has never played outside of Italy (which is the league which is most different from England). So I probably wouldn't swap the two, but Pirlo is still a better player outside of the context of playing for Manchester United.
Even right now he might not be our most talented player (RVP takes that honor) but in my opinion Rooney is our most important player. When he plays well the whole team start to play well and our football as a whole becomes better. Why on earth is he underrated on a United forum of all places? There were posters in the newbs who wanted him sold for fecks sake
I don't give a damn whether anyone sees him as the top 3 players in the league or not. What he brings to us both offensively and defensively is very hard to showcase using stats. Even when Ronaldo was here, when things were not going well for us or when we were playing utter wank I used to look out for Rooney to do something to ignite us even if it was something as simple as kicking someone or running back 50metres plus to dispossess someone.
I don't give a damn whether anyone sees him as the top 3 players in the league or not. What he brings to us both offensively and defensively is very hard to showcase using stats. Even when Ronaldo was here, when things were not going well for us or when we were playing utter wank I used to look out for Rooney to do something to ignite us even if it was something as simple as kicking someone or running back 50metres plus to dispossess someone.
Like Bas Dost?
That's seven players, you need to cut one.
And that's precisely the point - if we want to play a 4231, you can only have the one out and out striker. Personally, I think Rooney's getting the balance right this season. Yes, you want him to be far enough up the pitch to remain a goal threat, but the really special part of his play is to do with how he pulls the strings and drives us on as a team, and that comes out when he drops deeper. Putting him in a proper front two is a waste, especially when we have loads of good proper strikers, and a supposedly weakish midfield.
People have been talking about his potential since he first broke out onto the scene, and I can't help but think it's what people mainly think of when they throw his name around as one of the worlds best players.
When is it acceptable to say he never has, and probably never will reach his 'potential'?
Can you elaborate on this a little bit, because he scores far, far more goals now than he did when he was a kid.
It was in response to this:
But yes, Wayne Rooney is also a better goalscorer than Bas Dost, though the lad's no bad player.
OK - point taken. You missed my post on the last page (post no. 4000) where I've said you can't really talk about a player's form beyond the last two years - and this is more or less where we both agree. You've said form should stretch back max. one year, while I've said two years. Open to debate, I guess.
To be honest I haven't seen that much of Mata this season so I don't really want to comment - you're probably right.
But by your reasoning then, would Rooney be 3rd?
Behind Messi, Ronaldo, Falcao and Ibrahimovic.
Similar to Aguero, Suarez, Tevez and Benzema dependent on form.
Similar to Aguero, Suarez, Tevez and Benzema dependent on form.
Thanks for correction. But I do want him to play further up anyway. Strikers can be influential without having to demonstrate it so far back?
Suarez 3rd, Rooney or Toure 4th for me. I've only seen about 6 or 7 City games this season and Toure was quite good in a lot of them, better than the general consensus seems to be about his form this season.
He just needs to play a bit better, tidy up his passing a bit and all these concerns of how we get the best out of him won't exist.
I rate him higher than all of those 4.
Mostly because he's more of an all rounder than any of those for starters.
How can you rate him similarly to Tevez?
Tevez is a poor man's Rooney. We weren't too fussed he left because of that for one thing.
You can always buy a top striker, like we have in VP, like City did in Aguero, but a Rooney is a bit harder to buy.
Tevez is probably the worst of the 8 players I listed (should be 9 as a I forgot Cavani).
Difficult to say, I mean, we have seen Rooney at his absolute best in every season. Then, he's really a world top 5 player, unstoppable, and whatever he does on the pitch, he's brilliant.
It is just that he should be able to show that more often, play at the top of his game in 95% of the games and not in 70% or so.
I wish he was like Messi or Ronaldo in that respect, cause he has the tools to be up there somewhere
Haven't really watched too much of Suarez either this season (no time to watch the PL these days unless it's Utd, and even Utd at a stretch) so I'll have to take your word for it...
It feels dirty rating Suarez above Rooney though.
Sure, go back and watch older videos of him as a player and you'd see how often he would unleash a truly vicious shot from angles that he wouldn't attempt nowadays.
I think he's scoring more goals now because his movement and sense of timing has increased beyond recognition from his days as a kid, which has in turn presented him increasingly more frequently with easier chances.
I have no idea if these statistics have ever been compiled but I would expect to see that Rooney's increase in goals is directly proportional to the number of shots he is taking and the average distance from where he is scoring from is falling alongside it.
Of course, it's possible that this is all confirmation bias, because I remember that he used to strike the ball powerfully from outside the area and remember the goals he scored from doing so I forget the times when he fecked it up.
I'd say we were really reliant on his goals last season, due to Welbeck not being much of a goalscroer, Hernandez being off his game, Berbatov not playing etc, but that doesn't mean he was our best player. His overall game throughout the season was a shadow of the form he displayed during the 10/11 run in, when he was far, far better. If Rooney played like in those two/three months throughout an entire season then yeah, he'd be one of the top two players in the PL for sure, but he very rarely does that, like someone pointed out, 09/10 was the last time he was in the top 3 players in the PL.
He hasn't even been our best player for a season since then, in 10/11 Nani and Vidic were better, last year Carrick and Valencia were better (well, according to awards and people on here, though it's arguable, because I don't think we had any outstanding individuals throughout the entirety of last season). This year RVP, Rafael, Carrick have all been better.
Rooney is an excellent footballer, but right now he isn't one of the top two in the PL, he can be when on the top of his game, but that's not happening a lot, though unfortunately a lot of it does stem from constant injuries.
He's having a "below average" year so far, he's missed a lot of games, and he's somehow still the top assister in the PL and also has 7 goals to boot (talking purely stat-wise).
He's also one of the first players that come to mind when I think about those players whose stats don't give them justice, and he's also playing further back this season as RvP and Hernandez are basically the only ones that play up top this season.
I know people will pick anything they want out of this season for Rooney and try to shove shit down his throat about how he's "lost it", etc. but those people are either ones that dislike him and/or those that (yes, I'm just gonna say it) aren't that "intelligent football wise".
There can be a lot of ifs and buts, however if he wasn't injured and/or actually played further up top he'd easily be up there with the best goalscorers, possibly trailing only RvP.
As fantastic as RvP has been, he himself has given a lot of praise to Rooney for doing so much to allow him to score.
I have no doubt what-so-ever that once Rooney comes back he'll show you people all over again why he's rightly considered one of the best players in the world (obviously Messi and Ronaldo are a level or two above everyone else).
He's also one of the first players that come to mind when I think about those players whose stats don't give them justice, and he's also playing further back this season as RvP and Hernandez are basically the only ones that play up top this season.
I know people will pick anything they want out of this season for Rooney and try to shove shit down his throat about how he's "lost it", etc. but those people are either ones that dislike him and/or those that (yes, I'm just gonna say it) aren't that "intelligent football wise".
There can be a lot of ifs and buts, however if he wasn't injured and/or actually played further up top he'd easily be up there with the best goalscorers, possibly trailing only RvP.
As fantastic as RvP has been, he himself has given a lot of praise to Rooney for doing so much to allow him to score.
I have no doubt what-so-ever that once Rooney comes back he'll show you people all over again why he's rightly considered one of the best players in the world (obviously Messi and Ronaldo are a level or two above everyone else).
We should sell him, but is anyone there who would really want him?
We should sell him, but is anyone there who would really want him?
QPR spring to mind
They already have Taarabt, doubt they would be interested in Rooney just to see him sitting on the bench.
I wasn't being serious, and Taarabt is overrated
I think he knows.
Who gives a ...
True as a general point, but not of Rooney. He's not just a playmaker, something which, as you say, lots of strikers are able to do from an advances position - RVP is one example. He's a string-puller, he runs our games. Normally, that role falls to someone deeper even than a number 10 - Xavi does it for Barca, Ozil for Madrid. Hell, plenty of teams (especially in Italy), leave it almost completely to the *******, like Pirlo. So Rooney never really does that role as effectively unless he can roam freely across the whole midfield and attack.
EDIT: Ah, we have a 'foreign-word-sensitive' admin, didn't know that. MrMojo will be happy. Ok, 'deep-lying playmaker'.
I don't get why people bother with all the numerical rankings of players. Outside of someone like RVP who clearly stands above the rest at the moment, most of the top players put up relatively similar numbers and levels of play when looked in aggregate over a season.
It's all hugely subjective.
It's all hugely subjective.
I think Rooney's been alright this season apart from a terrible game at Swansea. If you look back through the mom thread he's in most people's top 3 for nearly all the games before that.
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