Hopefully, personally I always thought he would just get on with it if he did end up staying but am still a bit surprised by how well he has started. Certainly seems leaner and maybe that will help him keep his performances up. Unfortunately I can't see why he would have a sudden shift in mentality to be deal with getting dropped differently. I think if in the summer it had been a case of him choosing to stay then it would be ok, but it doesn't seem that he decided to stay, more than he didn't look to force an exit. So guess we'll just have to see what happens.
Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
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Hopefully, personally I always thought he would just get on with it if he did end up staying but am still a bit surprised by how well he has started. Certainly seems leaner and maybe that will help him keep his performances up. Unfortunately I can't see why he would have a sudden shift in mentality to be deal with getting dropped differently. I think if in the summer it had been a case of him choosing to stay then it would be ok, but it doesn't seem that he decided to stay, more than he didn't look to force an exit. So guess we'll just have to see what happens.
Of course, it's the dilemma that every player ever faces. A bit of a 'derrr' response. But knowing that he's feeling the best he's felt in a long time is a very good indicator of where and why he is doing well. Hard work and graft is a big element that (imo) is underrated in modern football. I also think that it can't be trained or taught, it's these attitudes that Fergie mixed into the squad are what made him so successful imo.
edit: Not having a go a you btw.
That is why it was a bit bizarre some of the menstruating that was going on during 'the saga' from some of our fans. There (for me) was never any indicator of his lack of professionalism, it was all fabricated by looney bin fans in there attempt to justify their slow growing hatred of him due to the off field 'issues'.
To a degree I agree with you, although the summer burgers and fags and weight gain, whilst somewhat exaggerated, (by me as well
) do point to maybe not quite unprofessionalism, but maybe a little less professionalism than Id like to see. That's certainly not a criticism that can be levelled at him this summer though, he is in magnificent shape.Imagine the scenario, Rooney is on fire until Xmas, pretty much back to his best & has scored, say, 15 goals, alright maybe 12, a lot anyway. Also, RvP has carried on where he left off from last season, Welbeck is starting to chip in with a few goals & although his chances are limited, when he gets them Chico gets important goals as super sub. Goals are not a problem for United.
Chavs haven't really progressed, Eto'o can't keep up with the PL pace, Torres is still shite & Ba is doing alright but isn't really trusted by Jose.
They come in at Xmas with a proper offer for Rooney, say £50M+ maybe up to £60M, they are desperate for a quality striker.
Yes or no & would we need to bring in another striker in Jan or not or should we wait until the Summer when Rooney's contract will be running down?
Chavs haven't really progressed, Eto'o can't keep up with the PL pace, Torres is still shite & Ba is doing alright but isn't really trusted by Jose.
They come in at Xmas with a proper offer for Rooney, say £50M+ maybe up to £60M, they are desperate for a quality striker.
Yes or no & would we need to bring in another striker in Jan or not or should we wait until the Summer when Rooney's contract will be running down?
Well like I said I can't see what would have changed in his actual mentality to make him suddenly react to being dropped by looking for a move away, to accepting it was his problem if it happens again. There's no reason why he shouldn't have been feeling good etc since he signed his new contract, but we still saw how his form could completely fluctuate and as I said, last season was the first time we could actually drop him and he didn't react well.
I can't see us selling in January at all, if we're doing well like in the scenario you said then Moyes rightfully won't risk that by selling Rooney in the middle of the season. I actually think what you've suggested is more than possible though, its clear that Eto'o isn't the same player he was at Barca so Chelsea will surely still be interested in Rooney - especially if he carries on this form which is a different class to last year.
If they came in with a huge offer around £50million in January then I would expect us to turn it down to try and wrap up the league, then revisit the interest in summer. If its a similar offer then I would sell, but I imagine most United fans would be very split on this.
Don't think we would need another striker if he were to leave. It depends on how Chich, Welbeck and Kagawa progress but if they develop like we expect them to then that money should go on a world class winger rather than another central attacker. Chich will be 26 next season so its about time he got more gametime and I would have no qualms with him being second choice - again people will disagree there, depends how highly you rate him.
i can see us offering him a new deal in mid season if he continues with his good form now. whether he take it or not that's another thing.
I think Moyes is handling this the right way. Keeping him playing, keeping him happy and hopefully after a while start sounding out the possibilities of an extended deal.
If Rooney likes the new regime it can only increase our chances of retaining him, the spoiled cnut.
If Rooney likes the new regime it can only increase our chances of retaining him, the spoiled cnut.
The only real staple (for me) is the whole 'saga' beaten to near astronomically Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime levels by the slavering media.
Honestly what the feck are you even on about here? Weird post.
How is that? How things like "..long it may continue" read like he wants out? Isn't it possible that he wants to put summer saga behind, don't want to talk about it publicly, concentrate on game and sort out contract extension etc privately with club?
It is funny that the positive things he is saying are being ignored by some but if there is slightest (perceived) negative tone, everyone jumps on it. I think, now it is time for us to concentrate solely on his football side and not worry about whether he will get new contract, will get pay rise etc. That is for Moyes and club to decide and act upon and they will in due course.
It's things like where he said 'I've tried to show the right attitude', which I'm guessing he meant because he's been forced to stay here. Why else would he have a problem with his attitude if he was happy here? It reads just like the stuff Ronaldo said when he was made to stay another season.
Apologies. My overly cynical "jesus christ, that was an abhorrent reaction from the caf regarding everything Rooney that summer.." attitude is showing through..
Yeah, because Iniesta never supplements his midfield. An attacking player today is supposed to help out in winning the ball back - not like Romario who hardly moved two feet unless he had a goal scoring opportunity.
This should be true for any player. In reality it isn't, though. A certain kind of player you're bound to cut more slack - that's inevitable. Rooney on top of his game is still our best player. RVP had a fairly mediocre, not to mention goalless spell last season - yet Fergie never looked likely to drop him. He was the main man - and was afforded more patience accordingly.
I don't think there's anything wrong with it, necessarily. Keeping your best players happy is important: You just have to assume they'll get back on track sooner rather than later. Of course, if they positively stink and clearly aren't all that arsed about it, that's another matter. Point is, to many of our fans Rooney's status at the club has changed radically: He has transgressed in their eyes and needs to be sharp and lethal all the time in order to justify a place in the starting line-up. That might not be the manager's view, however.
As you say it's not likely, given Rooney's history, that he will deliver absolutely top class performances every week. What to do, then? Cut him some slack because of how good he is when he does deliver - or start dropping him every time he's a bit off the boil? I don't know. Ideally you should pick players on form alone, but it's a fact that top dogs like Rooney don't like being dropped. He isn't exceptional in that sense either. Would RVP take kindly to being benched when he's on a barren streak? I doubt that. And in the long run - is it actually wise to do so? Unless the player who replaces him in the short run actually turns out to be better - probably not.
But the problem is Rooney of his game can actually be a problem for the team, giving the ball away needlessly etc, imo RVP when he went through his dry patch was still more or less fine in the basic aspects of his game. All players bar Ronaldo and Messi will go through bad patches, not all top players will have poor runs quite like Rooney is capable off. There's a difference between letting someone ride through a goal drought/bad spell and making someone untouchable regardless of performance level.
So my point is, if Rooney goes back to a point where he is playing so poorly that he could be dropped, and in Welbeck, Hernandez and Kagawa we have the players who could come in for him, then what? Personally I thought for example Fergie got it bang on with his team selection against Madrid at OT and it was bad luck and maybe a bad reaction to the red that cost us, not for me Rooney's exclusion. So if the time comes again where dropping Rooney is in the best interest of the team, for me that will be the real test. As has been commented that's something true of any player, but difference is we've seen how Rooney reacted the first time, no saying it won't happen again.
If we're lucky a slightly different set-up under Moyes, the addition of Fellaini, and so forth - will make Rooney better, as it were, when he isn't fully on song. He's usually good for a goal or a critical pass even when his overall game isn't quite there.
Generally, though, this is rather simple - a matter of plain old management: If your star player's poor patches occur frequently enough to make it a problem AND he doesn't respond well at all to being dropped - well, I suppose you have to ask whether he's worth the bother. That has to go for Moyes and Rooney too.
My point is that a manager often has to pander a bit to precisely a star player, start him when he doesn't really deserve it, etc, because this pays off in the long run. It's a bigger picture sort of thing. Lastly, I think Rooney will always split opinions as regards his infamous bottom level. To me he has been criticized too heavily at times; people will always focus more intensely on the bad when it comes to him, that has been the case for a while now.
Same, I hope as well that a new manager, new faces in the team will help him. I'm not sure how far it'll go as I think his problems have mainly been himself and his own commitment to ensuring he's in the best shape possible both physically and mentally.
Again though I fully accept that you give your best player(s) more slack than others, personally though there reaches a cut off. I don't think in recent years Rooney has been playing at that level where although he might be having a poor game he still might get a goal, not reliably anyway. There's only so far you can take a player. Additionally attack is perhaps now our best stacked area. We have a variety of options there who can all come in and do a good job, Hernandez brings the goal threat, Welbeck energy and technique and Kagawa that creativity.
As you say there is some subjectivity in terms of his bottom level but again that's not always the case. Again going back to the Real game do you not think that it was in the best interest of the team to set up the way we did? And setting up that way meant Rooney was on the bench? I was at first shocked by it but once I saw how it worked I understood Fergie's plan and how it had to be Welbeck to execute it. Now a Rooney playing like against Bayern might be able to pull it off, but Rooney playing how he was around the Real game had little chance of doing that role as well.
Ultimately you give your best players more slack, but they have to earn it. Like I said RVP is now in that place where he can be barely involved in a game and still pop up with the goals. Rooney still hasn't quite shaken off that goals in batches thing. Additionally personally I feel Rooney is liable to sometimes playing considerably below what we should expect from a player of his quality, certainly from a player who expects to be the star man. That's ultimately my point. If Rooney accepts that at least part of the reason he got dropped was due to his own performances than that's fine, hopefully he'll keep his level up and its not an issue, if not and I've seen nothing to suggest that he has changed his view, then we could have an issue were he to drop off in form.
Absolutely - Fergie was spot on there, no question about it. Tactically, it was the right selection. He could've played Rooney up front - but he obviously wasn't anywhere near deserving that on current form.
Perhaps Moyes is the man to make Rooney realize precisely what you suggest: That he needs to give a bit more, apply himself a little harder. I wouldn't rule that out. By all accounts the two of them have a good relationship. Rooney probably didn't enjoy the best of relationships with Fergie during his last couple of seasons - and certainly not during the last one. That might make a huge difference. And I really think Rooney will benefit from being freed up somewhat. He performed certain duties as a deep-dropping No 10 under Fergie that were crucial at the time - but that also no doubt hampered his offensive game.
I hope so, I'm not trying to have a go at Rooney or anything, I'm just saying that Rooney playing well isn't the issue, the issue is what happens if he starts playing poorly again, at a level below what I personally think most other top players don't drop too. Last time it happened we were strong enough to be able to drop him and going forward we likely will be too. That will be the real test because if he doesn't react well again to it then we'd seriously need to consider whether it's worth keeping him given that even if he would sign a new contract why would we want him to, knowing he'd go in to a pure sulk if things don't go his way. I'm hoping he's had time to think that maybe it was partly down to him, which is why he ensured he was fit and sharp for the season. Unfortunately as he clearly didn't go out of his way to say he wanted to stay etc it makes me think that maybe he doesn't quite think he was at fault. Then again we're not entirely certain if he did think it was a mis-understanding between him and Fergie. Either way it's gonna be interesting to see.
Aye, lots of uncertainties and things we don't know as regards the whole Fergie situation.
Anyway, I understand your concern. But at some point I suppose you have to gamble on a player - or kick him out. If we do offer him a new contract and he responds, so to speak, by under-performing, sulking, and the rest of it - well, that's life I suppose. There are no guarantees either way. He could be as positive as you like, as motivated and as humble as he's ever been - and then go and break his leg in training.
Right now I'm pleased he's still a United player. Two months from now? Next summer? Que sera sera, as the song goes.
I know I'm repeating myself here but I wouldn't accept even a 100m offer for him from our English rivals. If he's really hell bent on leaving then sell him abroad but I see us offering him a new deal fairly soon.
Thankfully you're not in charge of clubs finances.
He's had a couple of good games after being was forced to stay. He should have been playing like this for the last 18 months and should not have any excuses being unfit previously, or blame Sir Alex for his issues. He gets well paid, and should have been professional enough to look after his body.
A few games into the season fanboys carried away.
This.
I'm happy Rooney's playing well for us and not for someone else e.g. Chelsea and I take pleasure in the goals he scores because he scores them for Man Utd. But I don't feel the need to kowtow to him.
In a nutshell
Good post Sultan.
More of these "mini" turns and passes, please.
To think he didn't have a pre season and also had a few injuries, I did not expect him to be this sharp already!
Was always a convenient excuse when he played rubbish. Sure some of the time he would have been lacking fitness and match sharpness but a lot of the time he just didn't put in the effort.
The reason why I would accept no bid at all for him from an English club is that, that money wouldn't really help us. And not when it's going to so massively strengthen our title rivals in the one position they're desperately lacking in. And who cares about the money? We're still going to refuse to pay 30m for a Herrera, make opening bids of 25m for a Cesc. We've seen in the past that money isn't really reinvested so I see no point in selling him to Chelsea just because they throw in a ridiculously good offer.
I see, support a player that's been with the club for 10 years and scored 200 goals for us and get branded a fanboy.. Instead lets all go nuts over Arsenal Legend RVP who has been with us for one whole year.
Good stuff from Sir Alex on Wayne. I'm still really worried about that autobiography though!
Sir Alex on@WayneRooney: "I thought Wayne was fantastic [on Tuesday]. He's got his energy back, his determination, his purpose to attack. Being a director, I'm delighted to see that. He's back to what we always remember."
Sir Alex on
Does that mean you're finally acknowledging that he was well below standard?
I don't dislike Rooney. On his day he is a fantastic player to have in your side. If he stays great, If he does not wish to be at the club good riddance. It's always been about the club for me. Players, managers, and coaches move on, but Manchester United will hopefully be around for a long time.
Of course he was well below his standards. Had he played well last season he would been offered a fantastic new contract during the summer instead, and would not have had to court Chelsea.
OK I understand that and also agree with you, its always been about the club for me too, but why does it have to be "good riddance" if wants to go and not 'Thank you for last 10 years'? And I also feel that if he did/does want to go it takes two, when you reach that point it's usually not one side's fault but both.
I think provided he goes about it in a decent manner, hands in a request, early in the window and doesn't bad mouth the club most supporters would say fair enough thanks and so long
I clap them when they step on to the ground, and when they do something worth shouting about on the pitch. That's about the sum of my support for players. They get well paid for their services, and once they go they are history, and just memories. We move along for better or worse.
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