There were numerous reasons we were better in that second half, not just Rooney. If anything the most important thing was the fact that Giggs went off and our midfield wasn't full of pensioners anymore.
Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
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There were numerous reasons we were better in that second half, not just Rooney. If anything the most important thing was the fact that Giggs went off and our midfield wasn't full of pensioners anymore.
Yeah, maybe that's what I meant. I'm not even sure myself now.
It's a bit unfair to judge his performances in those tournaments because he's always unfit/just recovered from injuries.
He is a talisman, that doesn't mean he is as good as Xavi or Iniesta it means that he has that special something which can transform how a team plays single handedly.
I can't be arsed to go back and look, but has anyone actually said he's as good as Xavi/Iniesta?
Yes someone did. One person did (Amar?) and he was roundly shouted down by all and sundry. It was never a widely held position.
feck you, I mocked that guy too. 
Sorry. I forgot who it was. Oh was it ForeverGiggs or something like that?
I should shut up now, I am sullying the good name of innocents.
Tho Amar you did get shouted down for something else didnt you?
I nearly jumped to your defence when someone had a go at you for using the word "retard". Which I thought was a bit rich on this site, where the word spastic is thrown around like confetti without comment.
I should shut up now, I am sullying the good name of innocents.
Tho Amar you did get shouted down for something else didnt you?
I nearly jumped to your defence when someone had a go at you for using the word "retard". Which I thought was a bit rich on this site, where the word spastic is thrown around like confetti without comment.
Yes, because I said De Gea was pussy.
Thanks for that, but you should have jumped there and defend me, we both now I was right.
Well, to be fair I disagreed with your point about De Gea. But that doesnt mean I agreed with the tone of some of the people disagreeing with you.
Honestly I don't see how Rooney & Xavi are comparable in any way, although you could make a case for Rooney & Iniesta.
Iniesta has had better performances lately and thus is currently considered better, however I remain of the opinion that they are very very close and almost impossible to call if you had to pick one player.
I fully recognise his talent and he truly is superb, however I'd have to go with Rooney if I had to pick even though I'm aware the majority on here would dissagree.
Iniesta has had better performances lately and thus is currently considered better, however I remain of the opinion that they are very very close and almost impossible to call if you had to pick one player.
I fully recognise his talent and he truly is superb, however I'd have to go with Rooney if I had to pick even though I'm aware the majority on here would dissagree.
I think it's fair to say that when both (Rooney and Iniesta) are at their absolute best, there's very little in it. It's just that Iniesta seems more consistent to me (although I obviously don't watch him as often as Rooney). And crucially, he seems to achieve his top level in Euro, WC and CL finals.
Still, Rooney's late season form has often been decisive for us. When he's in that form he can single handedly turn important games around and I wouldn't trade him for all the Messis and Ronaldos of this world.
But why would you go with Rooney over Iniesa or Xavi? What are the reasons? Look at Iniesta's instant ball control, ability to beat a man, wieght of pass, vision and ability to dictate. This is a guy that's often compared to Zidane. I personally can't comprehend anyone rating Rooney as good as those two, but at least provide the reasons for you feeling that way?
For sentimental reasons surely?
I'd trade him for Ronaldo in a heartbeat.
For purely football reasons, surely anyone would? It's not even a contest.
I remember a thread - years ago - saying if one had to be sold this summer, Roon or Ron, which would you rather sell? It was probably one of the summers when we were wrestling with Madrid over Ronaldo.
I voted for Ronaldo to leave. On the basis that I never believed he would stay with us forever. But I thought Rooney might. So if we sold Rooney, we'd end up selling Ronaldo as well in the end anyway, and have neither.
On football alone there was no point in the thread really, it was a no brainer.
I voted for Ronaldo to leave. On the basis that I never believed he would stay with us forever. But I thought Rooney might. So if we sold Rooney, we'd end up selling Ronaldo as well in the end anyway, and have neither.
On football alone there was no point in the thread really, it was a no brainer.
Partly, and also because there's no guarantee any other player could do the same for us in our current setup.
And who could do what Ronaldo would do? Forget guarantee's, there's no chance of anyone replicating what Ronaldo can do.
I'll be honest here and say sentimental reasons are part of the reason.
As I said earlier I don't think comparing Rooney and Xavi is ideal as they are a different kind of player.
And while I can't actually criticise Iniesta I have to be honest and say if I had to pick a player (minus players like Messi around) that Rooney would be the better of the two in "leading the team", atleast to me he seems like more of a leader, while Iniesta to me seems like "the perfect #2".
That on top of the fact that I actually watch Rooney play week in week out and barely ever watch Iniesta.
And again not to take anything away from him as it's not like he's undeservedly in the best players in the world category, but I feel as if some people's opinions may be clouded in the sense that while they don't actually follow the player or team they mostly see highlights and hear/read things about how great they are.
For one thing if you watch entire games you're bound to see mistakes and inconsistency as well (something which some people fail to take into account), and another reason is that when a player like Rooney makes a mistake we all take notice because we actually care, while if we were to watch another player in a different team we wouldn't really give a shit would we (atleast not to the same extent)? so the emphasis is surely bigger on our own players' faults and mistakes than it is about others.
No of course not, it's just that at those times Rooney really seems to be the heartbeat of our team, contributing all over the pitch.
What about the Euros? He was absolute the main man in his country winning an international tournament. You have understand that anyone currently playing would be a number 2 to Messi.
And to be honest, in big matches there probably isn't a better player in the game right now than Iniesta. Against us, it was him to took "lead" the team on the pitch and made us look lik a bunch of clowns.
I see this argument quite often here and I don't buy it. Every week I see the La Liga thread being posted in quite heavily during Real and Barca matches. Clearly loads of people watch them every week or almost every week. Also Iniesta is simply too good a player and has never been a "man of moments". I can see someone like Gerrard swaying people because he's a highlights reel player. Iniesta is someone those who pay attention will appreciate.
I mean is Messi not as good as we think he is because he plays in Spain and we don't watch him as much as Rooney?
I still think that's still sentiment, though. Would you not take Messi or Zidane because you think Rooney is according to you the heartbeat of the side? I'd argue that even if he is (I'm not sure I agree) they'd be a better heartbeat to have than Rooney because they're better players. Same with Ronaldo.
Stupid argument.
Rooney is the heart beat of this side because we built the team to accomodate him, like we did for Ronaldo in 2007/08, it takes years to assemble sides, so any "I'd swap him for X" arguments are pointless.
Rooney is the heart beat of this side because we built the team to accomodate him, like we did for Ronaldo in 2007/08, it takes years to assemble sides, so any "I'd swap him for X" arguments are pointless.
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...opes-to-emulate-former-captain-Roy-Keane.aspx
KEANO KEANO KEANO
/stops
KEANO KEANO KEANO
/stops
5th highest England scorer and 4th highest United scorer. Not bad.
It's one thing to watch a match every now and then because you've got nothing better to do, it's a completely different thing when you watch "your team" every game.
Again dude, it's not like I'm taking anything away from him, but you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realise that a person's opinion is affected by the "peers" around them, to which extent is dependant on the individual, however noone can say that their opinions aren't influenced by anyone.
Isn't that what we're basicaly here for? To make our opinions heard, to discuss others' opinions and subsequently form a better "understanding".
Like I mentioned earlier, I'd pick Rooney over Iniesta (partly due to sentimental value), but I'm not going around telling people they're wrong if they think Iniesta is a better player.
To me they're really close to call and I'd give Rooney the slight edge, but I can see how people would be inclined to give Iniesta the edge and therefore when the difference in quality is so small or almost non-existent it's understandable for different people to form different views.
It would be a completely different thing trying to justify picking someone like Suarez or Mata over Iniesta or Rooney due to the noticable drop in quality (that's not to say Suarez or Mata are crap, because they are great players, but you should be getting my point by now
)How far do you take the "peers" argument though? Van Persie must be the greatest player ever to have scored the amount he did last year with what was not the best Arsenal team then? And I think (correct me if I'm wrong) when he was compared to Rooney you were the one who claimed his being in a worse team actually helped him because everything went through him.
It's as if every argument is twisted to suit your position on Rooney. How can both those scenarios accentuate Rooneys position?
Also, its easy for you to say "I'm okay with others feeling Iniesta is better" because the majority feels Iniesta is better. It's hard for me to fathom the opposite view because the justification for it imo doesn't really stack.
And finally, I watch a fair deal of Barca I reckon. Enough for me to know Iniesta is better. Don't see where your theory ends. Should I start rating the Barca players lower because I dont watch EVERY SINGLE match of theirs ? Or should I trust what my eyes tell me as being obvious on the basis of a pretty conclusive sample? I watch enough Barca matches to see the dud performances.
It's as if every argument is twisted to suit your position on Rooney. How can both those scenarios accentuate Rooneys position?
Also, its easy for you to say "I'm okay with others feeling Iniesta is better" because the majority feels Iniesta is better. It's hard for me to fathom the opposite view because the justification for it imo doesn't really stack.
And finally, I watch a fair deal of Barca I reckon. Enough for me to know Iniesta is better. Don't see where your theory ends. Should I start rating the Barca players lower because I dont watch EVERY SINGLE match of theirs ? Or should I trust what my eyes tell me as being obvious on the basis of a pretty conclusive sample? I watch enough Barca matches to see the dud performances.
Where did you pick up that logic? Yes, it did help him in the way that he was always the first person on the team sheet (little to no rotation), which is not the case at a club like United, and that while we do create more chances, a smaller percentage of those go to or through him.
He's performed splendidly well so far RvP, and he's our best goal scorer currently to proove it, however apart from the Southampton match have we really more or less solely depended on him? I don't think so.
How the hell do you expect me to know how many times you watch Barca play? You say you watch enough to form a firm belief that Iniesta is better? Fine, I don't have a problem with that. Why should you have a problem with me picking Rooney over Iniesta? Should I suddenly change my views to suit yours? It's not like I'm shoving it at everyone's face or saying that he's the best player in the world.
And another thing, while you may watch Barca games, I highly doubt you care about the outcome anywhere near as much as a United game (unless I'm mistaken and you're a Barca fan, in which case it'd be understandable).
You might notice, but you don't really care and therefore it doesn't really "stick".
Let me give an example, Barca plays, Iniesta scores 2 goals but doesn't have a genuinely good game (not a common thing, but stick with me on this one), if you were to comment on the game or Iniesta's performance 9 times out of 10 you'd say he scored 2 goals and you'd post a clip of one saying it's a good goal, put Rooney in the same scenario and while you might be impressed by the 2 goals you're way more likely to mention the fact that he had a relatively bad game and should improve on this and that, and if a mistake reoccurs there's even more emphasis on it.
Just so you don't get the wrong idea, what's written above is hardly what I base my argument on, but more of a side point I just wanted point out.
What rooney lack is attitude. Why should he run after the ball like a possessed man when hes got the skill and talent to be more effective with less effort
Don't understand this bit. Might have misinterpreted it as a result in previous response.
When you take a controversial stance you're bound to get a harsher response to it. Noone will take much issue with someone believing Messi to be better Iniesta. A lot of people will take issue with someone believing Iniesta to be better than Messi. Those people won't have a "problem" with your stance but will find it very strange.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're trying very hard to bend every single thing you can to try and fit into your opinion of Rooney. I don't mean that in a harsh way but I think it's creeping in subconsciously. Let me ask you, do fans of clubs just underrate their players? Do they not overrate their own players? I'd say most overrating of players happens from their own club's fans. Bale being overrated by Spurs fans, Gerrard by Liverpool fans etc. My point is that you're seeing only one side of the story. While a United fan will usually pick up on their own players' deficiencies due to the emotion attached, they'll tend to also go overboard the other way due to the exact same reason.
Don't know about attitude but Rooney generally doesn't lack effort for me.
Using a basis of watching mostly United games as a reason to pick Rooney over Iniesta is fine. You simply need to realize it won't get you very far. Having watched both players, the main thing Iniesta has over Rooney is consistency and his bottom level of form is a bit higher as well. He's definitely a much more polished player than Rooney and I think it's why we see less inconsistent matches from him. One criticism I have of Rooney is how he loses his edge when the intensity of the match begins to ease up or how he lets his frustration get the best of him. There were a few matches last season where it was quite annoying because he was our main conduit and his slack play meant we were less potent on the attack. We are beginning to see him take more control of it and long may it continue. However, it's quite evident how it takes away from his game and once he sorts it out, he'll become even better.
On here, when Wayne is performing really well, the comparisons start flowing and we start having these type of conversations once again. When he's shit, some posters flood in illustrating on how he's not as good as we think. As he ages, the expectations continue to rise and those of us who follow England will wonder if he'll ever recreate what he showed in Euro 2004. With these discussions, I sometimes wonder if we're asking ourselves the right question when we compare players. I think most people would agree Iniesta is a better player than Rooney. After that, the question becomes which player would you rather have in your team based on what they bring to the table. I think this is the question we should be asking ourselves. There's no point bringing players like Messi or Ronaldo into the equation. They're once-in-a-generation type players. Rooney is like this except exclusively to England.
On here, when Wayne is performing really well, the comparisons start flowing and we start having these type of conversations once again. When he's shit, some posters flood in illustrating on how he's not as good as we think. As he ages, the expectations continue to rise and those of us who follow England will wonder if he'll ever recreate what he showed in Euro 2004. With these discussions, I sometimes wonder if we're asking ourselves the right question when we compare players. I think most people would agree Iniesta is a better player than Rooney. After that, the question becomes which player would you rather have in your team based on what they bring to the table. I think this is the question we should be asking ourselves. There's no point bringing players like Messi or Ronaldo into the equation. They're once-in-a-generation type players. Rooney is like this except exclusively to England.
It would be fascinating to see how Rooney would fit in at Barca tho. In a would-be-fecking-awful-if-it-actually-happened kind of a way.
Nice.
Iniesta is better than Rooney but I wouldn't swap the two. I've never really understood it when people say they would swap player A for player B, I don't just watch United because of the success I do it because of the players, swapping any player for someone better just seems like glory hunting.
You do know we sign players to try and win stuff right? To be successful? It's the same thing. Doesn't every supporter of every club want their team to be successful? Not sure how that is gloryhunting. Also you're reading too much into it. When people they say they'd swap they're just trying to say who is the better player.
Doesn't apply in all cases does it now amol? We wouldn't have swapped John O'shea for a Micah Richards or Ji Sung Park for a Luis Suarez purely for footballing reasons. The point is that as much what you say is true it's the memories and the connection us fans develop towards a player over the years. And for 8 years now Rooney has been a vital part of our success in the league. It just happens to be that you have something against Rooney and you like Andres Iniesta. I agree with you on the fact Iniesta is different class to wayne. But personally, I wouldn't swap him for a player in this world and I don't think its laughable at all.
I agree that it doesn't apply to all cases. But it does apply to some as well. Fergie has just signed Van Persie from Arsenal which reduces the opportunities for Hernandez and to some extent Welbeck (uptop at least). Is that gloryhunting? Or is that just him doing what he thinks is best for the club? Maybe he should just have kept playing the young strikers due to sentimental reasons.
I agree that sentiment is important in sport. Emotion, along with entertainment is the biggest asset of sport as someone who loves it. But that doesn't mean that it has to override everything one says. If Messi tomorrow has a falling out at Barca would we not accept him here because of sentiment towards a player despite him coming being in the best interest of the club?
And like I said, when someone says they'd swap two players they're generally comparing the two rather than talking about a literal swap and all its intricacies.
Not true. I just have a realistic opinion of Rooney unlike a few here. Just like I have a realistic opinion (at least according to me) of Welbeck, Hernandez, Van Persie etc.
Is there anything you think you have an unrealistic view on?
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