You're the one claiming Rooney to be better than Xavi and Iniesta and my view is nonsense. You go in the "Rooney should be the leader of the universe" category of posters on redcafe.Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
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You're the one claiming Rooney to be better than Xavi and Iniesta and my view is nonsense. You go in the "Rooney should be the leader of the universe" category of posters on redcafe.Last season Valencia was our players' player of the year. This season Van Persie has definitely been our most valuable player. Over the last year Van Persie has been the premier league's best player. Yet Rooney, who isn't even definitively head and shoulders above his team mates (who aren't as good as Xavi or Iniesta), is apparently better than than Xavi and Iniesta. Mindblown
Rooney's a fine player but some of the opinions on him are laughable over here.
Rooney's a fine player but some of the opinions on him are laughable over here.
Come on. Be reasonable. They make Barca shine, not the other way around. And they are better than Rooney.
I apologize, I wanted to post, "I am sorry I don't subscribe to your view and mine is nonsense.
I am not in the habit of calling people names or denouncing their views on things that are subjective.
Last season Valencia was our players' player of the year. This season Van Persie has definitely been our most valuable player. Over the last year Van Persie has been the premier league's best player. Yet Rooney, who isn't even definitively head and shoulders above his team mates (who aren't as good as Xavi or Iniesta), is apparently better than than Xavi and Iniesta. Mindblown
Rooney's a fine player but some of the opinions on him are laughable over here.
It's good that myself and some-others can provide you with a laugh. Isn't it? At least there is a medium where you can come and laugh in an otherwise sordid world.
I do not know what you are trying to prove with Valencia, RVP, best player wordplay so really can't comment on that.
Though if I am building a team tomorrow and Messi and Ronnie are gone, Rooney is the player I would pick before Xavi/Iniesta. As a player, I think Rooney has more to offer than either of those two. His passion, his desire, his hardwork, natural ability, intangibles are greater imo than those two players. It would be far easier for me to build a team around Rooney than either of those two.
Edit: Even if I believe that Rooney is not better than them, I would never agree that he is any worse than them.
I never said any of those things, I was first here to criticize him after poor game, eventough he often scored goal or two in same game, even three. I don't care about the goals, I don't understand where did I say I just want goals from him, what were you reading?
And this is really ridiculous, we are actually discussing Rooney's abilities with people who think he is better than Xavi and Iniesta. I should avoid this thread from now, except when I want to cheer out a bit.
Class act, class player.
Love the fella. All I am remotely bothered about is what he does on the pitch for us...and he's come back looking cracking.
MOM on Sunday and one of the biggest reasons we made a recovery against Spurs.
Love the fella. All I am remotely bothered about is what he does on the pitch for us...and he's come back looking cracking.
MOM on Sunday and one of the biggest reasons we made a recovery against Spurs.
There's a nonsense piece on him in 442 this month that basically concludes that he's failed to live up to his hype and ability. That he's in the 'best of he rest' category, and will never match the top players of his generation.
I was almost sick on the pages. Why a load of tripe. He's always been one of the most satisfying footballers to support!
I was almost sick on the pages. Why a load of tripe. He's always been one of the most satisfying footballers to support!
Agree.
Rooney is one of the best of his generation, he's just a little unfortunate in that his generation includes four of the greatest players the game has ever seen.
I wouldn't say it's nonsense that he's failed to live up to the initial hype, but yeah, above, having the 'consistency' thing going to a new level by Ronaldo/Messi doesn't overly help, but even before they were how they were now, they were already considered better than him really, so it's not just that. I think he's probably got the best complete game of any player around now, but that's also probably a big downfall for him too(well in terms of placing high in the big awards.)
He's been absolutely brilliant in this deeper role, and since he came back from injury he seems to have been revitalised. His touch, passing, hunger and determination are all back again. I think I even saw him attempt to dribble past defenders through sheer grit and determination (like in the old days) in the last match. I enjoy seeing him play like this, and wouldn't mind if it came at the cost of goals.
How many generations have less? Even in terms of trios you have the Brazilians from the early 60s, our very own holy trinity, the Ajax and Bayern teams of the 70s, the Milan team of the late 80s, the Brazilian's of the late 90s...
1. Xavi-Messi-Iniesta
2. Rijkaard-Gullit-Van Basten
3. Charlton-Law-Best
4. Didi-Garrincha-Pele
5. Krol-Neeskens-Cruyff
6. Maier-Beckenbauer-Muller
In the 90s alone you have Matthaus, Rijkaard, Zidane, Ronaldo, Figo, Laudrup, Rivaldo, Stoichkov, Romario, Baggio, Keane, Redondo and a fair few others that you could argue he hasn't matched the level of.
All i'l say is that put Xavi or Iniesta in any of the PL teams and they'd tear defences a new one. Just look at the performances of players like Silva and Cazorla in the league. They shine through. And the 2 at Barca are a level or 2 above them.
They're just simply brilliant players and would remain the same regardless of the team. Rooney, as much as i like him as a player, isnt as good as them. He'd definitely be in the running for the 5th best player though but there's many in line for that place.
I get what your saying and i agree. Our team has been built around him. What i was getting at was the returns he personally gets. His returns will be marginalized this season because of the much deeper position he's playing in. The examples you cited all moved to positions which would give them more goals. Thats what i was talking about. Rooney is someone who's more selfless, willing to look beyond numbers.
A joy to watch at times.
True IMO.
have always liked him where he's playing now. he's got loads of energy, fight, and grit, and it suits him more than standing around up top. he's the type that needs to be involved all the time.
That Messi role suits him very well.
It's not Messi role.
This is important to mention.These players (Iniesta,Xavi and Messi) take the tiki taka football style to another level.According to some you'd think they're cheating their way to greatness by using this style.
Our wazza is growing up :') .
Nobody could have lived up to the hype. He was being predicted as English football's saviour before he made his debut for Everton. I think he was 16 when the white Pele chants started. He scored a Champions League hattrick on his debut for us.
Sorry but feck England, concentrate on the club that pays your massive wages please.
I will state now that you will never win an international tournement with England Wayne, not because of you, but because the rest arent good enough.
I will state now that you will never win an international tournement with England Wayne, not because of you, but because the rest arent good enough.
He's still the best English player of his generation, what the feck more could they want from him?
People see Messi and so everyone else is a dissapointment.
fecked up logic for sure, but seems to hold.
Turning up at an international event? Post euro 2004 he's been a tragic mess in every single one. He's consistently been a big player who flopped since then.
That is a fair comment. I can see why a non-United fan would feel he is overrated on that basis, especially if they dont watch many of our games. He has been pretty pants a lot of the time for England.
Yeah, that bit which ended up with the left footed shot. Was great seeing that.
I do think Rooney at his best is in that category with Xavi, above the likes of Van Persie, Aguero, etc. Not as good as Iniesta at his best, but if he played like he can do every week (or at least most weeks) it would be a closer debate than you'd think.
We've just not seen him at his best enough. Rooney 05/06, Rooney in the back half of 10/11, Rooney against Everton in the 4-4 game, performances like that one the other day...if he remained at that level for the majority of the season, we'd shit over absolutely everyone pretty much.
He has been shite in international tournaments, but he was injured prior to it in 06 and '10. We didn't even make it to '08. Be nice to see him in decent form with a semi functional team for a change.
Agreed, Steven, definitely mitigating circumstances.
Rooney has the one thing a lot of "English" players don't have - an adaptability to play in different positions to suit the team, even an eagerness to test himself at the differing roles and do the best he can.
You'll note that Fergie has played him in a multitude of positions for a long time now, just like a lot of "continental clubs" would have done - contrast that by how the National team utilise him - it's as if he's a one trick pony.
I think he's been inspirational and I believe he has no problem sacrificing some of his own personal goal threat for the good of United.
You'll note that Fergie has played him in a multitude of positions for a long time now, just like a lot of "continental clubs" would have done - contrast that by how the National team utilise him - it's as if he's a one trick pony.
I think he's been inspirational and I believe he has no problem sacrificing some of his own personal goal threat for the good of United.
Reminds me, that interviewer the other day was a right arsehole after the game. He puts in two top quality performances immediately after coming back from injury, and one of this first questions was "are you feeling the pressure of not scoring a goal yet since coming back?". 
Absurd comment. He hasnt been mishandled by England at all. He's always played in his favorite position - as a striker. It's just that his touch at these international tournaments has resembled that of an elephant. He clearly himself seems to be disappointed in himself. I'm not sure why his fans can't accept that.
Yep as Steven says, you really have to take into account the circumstances around the international tournaments with Rooney:
- '04 he's very good and comes forward on the international stage; impressive performances for a very young player back then;
- '06 comes into the tournament with an injury;
- '08 we don't even qualify
- '10 comes into the tournament with an injury and England plays some of the most boring and ugly football of that World Cup.
- '12 comes into the tournament two games in (which is indeed his fault, cos of his stupid red card), does ok in the first game and then is a spectator in the game where we're knocked out and where the whole team was dominated.
He usually does ok for England in the qualifiers and has a very decent, if I'm correct, as a goalscorer for the national side. People are basically expecting him to drag England to a Euro or world cup victory on his own, à la Maradonna, but people tend to forget that so called one-man teams:
1) don't really exist anymore today (look at Messi with Argentina and how they struggle)
2) even if Rooney had the talent to be that player capable of dragging his side to a victory, the team isn't really built around him and he doesn't have 9 outfield players playing for him; there are too many egoes and not enough tactical nous (building the team around a player requires a big knowledge of the game and clever preparation) to even contemplate an English side having that kind of performance.
He's often partnered up with decent to mediocre forwards in the national side, and plays in a side that doesn't know how to keep possession (and we know how frustrated he gets when he's not getting on the ball a lot). Of course he has his part of responsibility for his failure to impress at international level, but there are definitely mitigating circumstances, as to both his form and the side within which he's playing.
- '04 he's very good and comes forward on the international stage; impressive performances for a very young player back then;
- '06 comes into the tournament with an injury;
- '08 we don't even qualify
- '10 comes into the tournament with an injury and England plays some of the most boring and ugly football of that World Cup.
- '12 comes into the tournament two games in (which is indeed his fault, cos of his stupid red card), does ok in the first game and then is a spectator in the game where we're knocked out and where the whole team was dominated.
He usually does ok for England in the qualifiers and has a very decent, if I'm correct, as a goalscorer for the national side. People are basically expecting him to drag England to a Euro or world cup victory on his own, à la Maradonna, but people tend to forget that so called one-man teams:
1) don't really exist anymore today (look at Messi with Argentina and how they struggle)
2) even if Rooney had the talent to be that player capable of dragging his side to a victory, the team isn't really built around him and he doesn't have 9 outfield players playing for him; there are too many egoes and not enough tactical nous (building the team around a player requires a big knowledge of the game and clever preparation) to even contemplate an English side having that kind of performance.
He's often partnered up with decent to mediocre forwards in the national side, and plays in a side that doesn't know how to keep possession (and we know how frustrated he gets when he's not getting on the ball a lot). Of course he has his part of responsibility for his failure to impress at international level, but there are definitely mitigating circumstances, as to both his form and the side within which he's playing.
It would help if he had a good team to play with though, wouldn't it?
Anyway, a lot of the worlds great players are poor at international level, for their standards. Apart from the Spaniards.
Rooney for England is not a one man team. England are not amazing but they have other decent players than Rooney, and should do better than they have done. Anyway, that overlooks the fact that, far from Rooney carrying England but failing to do enough to get them there, Rooney has often - more often than not, possibly - been a passenger. Gerrard carried England in South Africa - and on other occasions.
But yes, other great players are also poor for their countries, like Messi for example.
But yes, other great players are also poor for their countries, like Messi for example.
Messi isn't poor for Argentina, to be fair. Not even close - just not as good as he is for Barcelona.
Rooney has seriously underperformed for England but, as the post up there outlines, it's often not been without unfortunate circumstances.
Rooney has seriously underperformed for England but, as the post up there outlines, it's often not been without unfortunate circumstances.
Like you mentioned across the board the Spaniards make a better team.
Rooney, Messi and Ronnie all suffer from the fact that they are always made out to be the sole saviors of their national teams, everything depends on them.
For the Spaniards it's more of a fact that the entire team is made of world class players and the focus isn't solely focused on a single player, especially not since Villa was injured for the last tournament and Torres turned into a mediocre player.
Yes, sorry, to qualify as Cina did: poor at international level, for their standards.
Rooney is a little bit worse than that, sometimes. But with mitigating circumstances.
I remember before South Africa so clearly - it was a bit like with United a couple of games ago when we saw the team sheet and knew what was going to happen. When Rooney got injured and they took him anyway, you just knew how that was going to pan out, having been through the same thing in Germany.
Rooney is a little bit worse than that, sometimes. But with mitigating circumstances.
I remember before South Africa so clearly - it was a bit like with United a couple of games ago when we saw the team sheet and knew what was going to happen. When Rooney got injured and they took him anyway, you just knew how that was going to pan out, having been through the same thing in Germany.
I think Rooney is a class act...however I admit I couldn't give a flying feck what he does for England.
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