Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

[IrishLegend]

Rooney has the intelligence and the awareness to find pockets of space, but it's the concentration element and the fitness element that I was alluding to... spanish player's just never stand still, this country overrates it's players fitness levels... guys like Gerrard are seen as box to box lung busting midfielders, but someone like Xavi covers insane ground and it's just continuous repetition of clever little movements to keep supporting the play and link up the entire team from defence, midfield and attack.

It's why Scholes is such a rarity in English football and why I admire Wilshere, he has that in him.. constant movement. Cleverley is also a player we possess that has this as an asset, he is tireless at his best and helps knit the side together but albeit he isn't quite at the other players level but he understands that movement is important in midfield. Lampard and Gerrard only cared for movement when it come to the final third and timing runs into the box, they never applied themselves properly in deeper roles and were lazy in terms of movement off the ball. It's why England look so poor at International Level when it comes to ball retention, they look very static.

Top, top post.

The Cleverley point is what I consistently make to people who don't rate him.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

Yeah I found comments like that strange. "Some wonderful passes in the first half"...I'm sure he tried that same pass to Valencia four or five times in the first half, the commentators ooh'd and aah'd at the majestic flight of the ball and then the defender intercepted it pretty easily. Two great passes in the first half in the build-up to the goal covered up that sloppiness and the loose touches, risky dribbling and all-round poor decision-making just got worse in the second half.

He completed 4 of 8 long passes. It was a case of percentage play a la Ryan Giggs, quite a few wasted balls but he got the assist. He did go downhill in the second half all round. I felt that Lambert had instructed his players to get closer to Wayne, he struggled when being pressed. I am not convinced about him in that role, if he doesn't have the protection of two midfielders behind him anyway.

 

[Carl]

I thought he did very well yesterday, not sure why Fergie substituted him. Was slightly unfair on him.

Really? I thought he was OK. He played a couple of sublime passes out to the wings and obviously got the assist for RVP but on the whole he was only OK and his game suffered more the more Villa came into the game.

He was very sloppy in possesion twice in dangerous areas which would have cost us against a better side.

I certainly think he has potential to play there on a more long term basis though. Whether I'd want him to is another matter entirely.

 

[Platato]

So he's back to midfield solution after a decent half against a pretty poor Villa, perspective please.

I know mate. It's baffling.

 

[Platato]

The closest Rooney should be to midfield is in the 3 man pivot we used against Arsenal earlier in the season. Cleverley, Rooney, even Carrick got forward in that game. Rooney did a job on Arteta and Cleverley on Wilshere, alternating at times. We dominated that game.

I agree with what Raees said, but then how does that translate to playing well further forward as an AM or striker? Those same qualities are needed and i always feel it's a matter of how Rooney applies himself over the 90min.

You can get away with not constantly moving as an AM more so than a CM when a majority of the play goes through you. A CM is more responsible with dictating the tempo as well.

You do have a point though, concentration needs to be applied throughout the match. Wayne is just inconsistent with expressing his game. It is the main source of my frustration with him. Additionally, as a striker and AM you have much less defensive responsibility. Those positions are more about using your energy to pop up in the right places to hurt the opposition. Incessantly looking for an angle to exploit a weakness. It is something Kagawa does very well.

If you constantly move as a striker, you're going to be wasting your energy. Van Persie is a master in terms of his movement. He knows exactly where to position himself and how the positions he takes up can trouble the opposition. With a CM, there is much more to account for. It is why young CMs have trouble imposing their influence on the game. Rooney will look great when we're in the ascendancy but when it gets a little gritty there's bound to be trouble. As you say Rooney doesn't stay engaged all the time and in CM, that is very costly.

It's why I find this midfield experiment a bit much. I don't see it as anything more than SAF trying to build Wayne's confidence up. There's no way he would play CM against City or other good teams. It just doesn't make sense. Everything he does is with the mindset of a forward player. Despite his intelligence and knowledge of the game, you can't just switch into a completely different mindset and automatically think like a CM.

Scholes is a rare example of a forward player smoothly transitioning to playing in midfield with little fuss.

 

[Ruud10]

If Roo embraces it, he'll make it work.

The real issue at hand is at left mid. Solve that and we can rotate between Rooney, cleverly, kagawa and even Powell at attacking mid.

 

[Plechazunga]

It would help if Kagawa could play from the left. He ought to be able to do that, with his style of play.

An out-and-out winger on the left isn't absolutely vital since Evra's almost a wing-back. It worked well for several years with Giggs in a tucked-in role and Evra overlapping.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It would help if Kagawa could play from the left. He ought to be able to do that, with his style of play.

He did a very good impression of doing exactly that against West Ham.

 

[Plechazunga]

I didn't see that game, I was completely lost in New York at the time

 

[Zen86]

I know mate. It's baffling.

It really is, it's not like he was spectacular either. The passes to Valencia and RVP were great but there were plenty of examples where those long balls went straight to Villa.

 

[gza the genius]

Yeah I found comments like that strange. "Some wonderful passes in the first half"...I'm sure he tried that same pass to Valencia four or five times in the first half, the commentators ooh'd and aah'd at the majestic flight of the ball and then the defender intercepted it pretty easily. Two great passes in the first half in the build-up to the goal covered up that sloppiness and the loose touches, risky dribbling and all-round poor decision-making just got worse in the second half.

This is how I saw it. He was pretty good in the first half for the most part but still only really looked good because he had all the time in the world. We always knew he was capable of those cross field balls anyway, and as you say quite a few of them got cut out by the defender. He struggled a lot more in the second half when they started to press more and sloppily gave the ball away in dangerous areas a few times which is what kept getting Sir Alex aggravated.

Like a lot of others are saying he's played in the position probably less than 10 times ever so it's to be expected and not impossible that he'll be able to adapt to the role but its certainly going to take some time.

 

[Red Dreams]

His best position is still as a an out and out striker.

If RVP played just behind him, it would be interesting.

Rooney is very direct up front.

 

[TheReligion]

Do we not think it is possible to play two up front nowadays?

Is 4-4-2 totally dead?

Rooney and RvP in a front two would be good, no?

 

[Red Dreams]

Do we not think it is possible to play two up front nowadays?

Is 4-4-2 totally dead?

Rooney and RvP in a front two would be good, no?

I think we are compensating for our 'failings' in midfield.

For me Carrick has been the most important player for us this season. But we have tried so many players to play alongside him.

If we get 'that' midfielder...I agree Rooney and RVP up front will destroy any team.

 

[JakeC]

The reason a lot of people like seeing Rooney in midfield is because of his superb range of passing, Scholesesque in a sense. They will look past the other important attributes needed to be a midifielder.

When you look at it in black and white, Rooney is a fantastic footballer, and with the mental strength he has, he could be a world class midfielder for us.

 

[Drainy]

Do we not think it is possible to play two up front nowadays?

Is 4-4-2 totally dead?

Rooney and RvP in a front two would be good, no?

I don't think it dead as such, but difficult for us to make work without a more mobile central 2. We have midfielders who are great interceptors, but are not the best at pressing or tackling. We need the wingers to come inside a little and a second striker to press the ball, to give the midfielders a chance to intercept to win the ball back in the middle of the pitch.

 

[manusteve]

I don't think it dead as such, but difficult for us to make work without a more mobile central 2. We have midfielders who are great interceptors, but are not the best at pressing or tackling. We need the wingers to come inside a little and a second striker to press the ball, to give the midfielders a chance to intercept to win the ball back in the middle of the pitch.

It's dead. I know it's not emphatic proof but which top team plays that formation?

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

The reason a lot of people like seeing Rooney in midfield is because of his superb range of passing, Scholesesque in a sense. They will look past the other important attributes needed to be a midifielder.

When you look at it in black and white, Rooney is a fantastic footballer, and with the mental strength he has, he could be a world class midfielder for us.

That would be the mental strength that sees his form collapse the moment things aren't going right? Unlike Keane, Ronaldo, Becks etc.......fantastic footballer? Yes absolutely, mental strength, not so much.

 

[Adebesi]

His form doesnt collapse the moment things arent going right at all.

 

[Drainy]

It's dead. I know it's not emphatic proof but which top team plays that formation?

It is not optimal against the best teams, so if you consider that being the death of the formation then fine.

We've actually played a couple of games this year with 4-4-2 in the Premier League, RvP playing a little deeper but still up front off Hernandez.
It depends on the opposition.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

His form doesnt collapse the moment things arent going right at all.

Really? Have we forgotten that 6/9 month spell including the world cup where he was all over the papers (which was his own fault in the first place) Corresponding with month after month of sub heskey performances?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yeah I found comments like that strange. "Some wonderful passes in the first half"...I'm sure he tried that same pass to Valencia four or five times in the first half, the commentators ooh'd and aah'd at the majestic flight of the ball and then the defender intercepted it pretty easily. Two great passes in the first half in the build-up to the goal covered up that sloppiness and the loose touches, risky dribbling and all-round poor decision-making just got worse in the second half.

Agree with that. Every time he plays there he looks a second striker/withdrawn forward playing in central midfield which is exactly what he is.

I remember thinking fletcher seemed to have the sense of a central midfielder even when he was a bit shit. Rooney just doesn't have that. He'll play one great pass and two poor ones, it's pretty much what I expect from an attacker but not from a central midfielder.

On an entirely different note, a lot of people here dislike rooneys personality but to be fair to him there aren't that many big name players who would be okay with filling in at many roles without kicking up a fuss so it's a credit to him that he's done that pverb the years.

 

[Brightonian]

Really? Have we forgotten that 6/9 month spell including the world cup where he was all over the papers (which was his own fault in the first place) Corresponding with month after month of sub heskey performances?

That was comfortably the worst he's ever played, and his longest ever period of poor form. It's not typical of him as a player. He goes through dry spells goal-wise every now and then, but he rarely actually plays badly for very long.

 

[Adebesi]

I havent forgotten that spell but that is still a rather sweeping generalisation to make on the back of one - albeit one very long - loss of form.

You could just as easily look at any one of numerous Rooney-inspired comebacks to make the case that he has the famous, patented United Never-Say-Die spirit in abundance.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

That was comfortably the worst he's ever played, and his longest ever period of poor form. It's not typical of him as a player. He goes through dry spells goal-wise every now and then, but he rarely actually plays badly for very long.

Im not saying he does, and Im not saying he isn't a good player but I have said for years he is not a mentally strong person.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

I havent forgotten that spell but that is still a rather sweeping generalisation to make on the back of one - albeit one very long - loss of form.

You could just as easily look at any one of numerous Rooney-inspired comebacks to make the case that he has the famous, patented United Never-Say-Die spirit in abundance.

Not for me, and it genuinely is nothing to do with the fact I don't like him, he just comes across as lacking a certain something in that department for me, unlike the aforementioned others.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

4-4-2 isn't dead unless one thinks it's absolutely necessary to play the pressing/ball retention/possession game.

You can't combine the 4-4-2 with the modern ideal of “dominating” your matches, however. That will never happen with us as long as we keep playing a two-man midfield with more or less “proper” wingers on each flank. That style necessarily involves – against top sides that swear to some form of pressing – conceding possession to an extent the likes of Barca would never dream of.

It's a style, not least, which demands a very solid defence. But if you do have that, and if your strikers and wingers are first rate, the formation – and this is the upside – may be very effective against pressing/possession teams: They often don't deal well with traditional, counter attacking wing play.

It's a trade-off, basically. I don't see tucking in your wingers and employing a pressing second striker as any viable solution, really. If you go down that road you may as well ditch the idea and go for a more modern set-up allround, as I see it. You have to play a high-stakes game: Concede possession and make sure that you A) have a tight enough defence to deal with the inevitable pressure – and B) have excellent counter attacking players. We were onto something against Real – before Nani's red card. The way we played up until that point is something close to what I'm talking about here. Our opponents “dominated” us in terms of possession but they weren't allowed to exploit it. We looked more dangerous when we attacked with full commitment than they did.

 

[Red Dreams]

I don't think it dead as such, but difficult for us to make work without a more mobile central 2. We have midfielders who are great interceptors, but are not the best at pressing or tackling. We need the wingers to come inside a little and a second striker to press the ball, to give the midfielders a chance to intercept to win the ball back in the middle of the pitch.

agree with this in general. Think United play with wingers because that is what we are used to...the United way of doing things. We adapt when we play in Europe.

Frankly many teams cannot cope with our 4-4-2 style.

Personally I hope we retain 4-4-2 at least in some fashion.

 

[Devil may care]

I know mate. It's baffling.

I think it's a case of the season is over and pretty soon the Caf will embark on another summer of "Can we have a CM please Mr Fergie?" but it's reached a point where no one believes the answer will ever come back "Yes!" So Rooney to CM is the alternative.

 

[Decotron]

The reason a lot of people like seeing Rooney in midfield is because of his superb range of passing, Scholesesque in a sense. They will look past the other important attributes needed to be a midifielder.

When you look at it in black and white, Rooney is a fantastic footballer, and with the mental strength he has, he could be a world class midfielder for us.

On paper maybe, certainly not in practise.

There's so much more to playing that particular position. He has some of the attributes as Id expect because hes a top class footballer but Im certain he doesnt have possess enough of them to be considered world class in that postion....

 

[Adebesi]

Not for me, and it genuinely is nothing to do with the fact I don't like him, he just comes across as lacking a certain something in that department for me, unlike the aforementioned others.

Im sure the marital problems, England expectation pressure and contract dispute problems took their toll on him mentally and contributed to his loss of form. The timing of his return to form certainly support that view. But I think it is unfair to extrapolate from that to the position that he is mentally weak. The pressure he was under then was immense. To let that get to you does not IMO validate the statement you made, which was that "his form collapses the minute things arent going right." What I see is a player who usually when things arent going right - on the pitch particularly - digs deep and often delivers massive performances.

Anyway, I doubt either of us will change the other's view on this, this is hardly a quantifiable commodity we are talking about where we will be able to prove our points one way or the other.

 

[TheReligion]

Just buy a midfielder and let Rooney play upfront with RvP

Easy really.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

Im sure the marital problems, England expectation pressure and contract dispute problems took their toll on him mentally and contributed to his loss of form. The timing of his return to form certainly support that view. But I think it is unfair to extrapolate from that to the position that he is mentally weak. The pressure he was under then was immense. To let that get to you does not IMO validate the statement you made, which was that "his form collapses the minute things arent going right." What I see is a player who usually when things arent going right - on the pitch particularly - digs deep and often delivers massive performances.

Anyway, I doubt either of us will change the other's view on this, this is hardly a quantifiable commodity we are talking about where we will be able to prove our points one way or the other.

Maybe you are right, as Utd supporters we have been lucky over the years to have had the likes of Keane Cantona, Ronaldo and Becks who took all the negative shit and converted it into insanely good performances.

 

[Adebesi]

We have. Becks is a great example in particular because there are parallels: he thrived on the England expectation and I think the whole Rebecca Loos business must have been a massive stress, but never affected his football. It is true that Rooney has not reacted in the same way. But, yeah.... for me it is like saying if you dont run as fast as Usain Bolt then you are slow. It doesnt make you slow, it just makes you not as fast as Bolt.

 

[Ash_G]

Against an average pl standard team Rooney could do midfield fine but its against the better teams that it would be an issue, you can see it in his positioning and his passing choices and tbh that's what our problem is. The likes of clev, giggs, Rooney etc can all do it against a standard team, it's the biggest games where a lack if a proper seasoned midfielder on their prime next to carrick can hold us back.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Agree with that. Every time he plays there he looks a second striker/withdrawn forward playing in central midfield which is exactly what he is.

I remember thinking fletcher seemed to have the sense of a central midfielder even when he was a bit shit. Rooney just doesn't have that. He'll play one great pass and two poor ones, it's pretty much what I expect from an attacker but not from a central midfielder.

I think that's very harsh and unfair. As I said in another thread, I was really careful about his positioning last night, and during the first half, it was very good, both in the defensive phases and when we were going forward. Proper CM positioning. His passing was overall okay (86% or something, I think), and very good during the first half. I think people are letting his performance in the second half, when the whole team took it down a notch and were pretty average, affect their overall judgment of his game yesterday.

Again, I don't think anyone here is saying that at THIS point in time he's good enough to play there against the top teams. My view is that he's looked okay and seems to be progressing with the positioning, but needs to be more concentrated throughout the whole game. I'll agree to the fact he sometimes loses concentration, which he'll have to lose if he plays there in the long run (to be fair, he shouldn't lose focus wherever he's playing on the field, but CM's the position where it's the most costly). I think there's something there in any case, I'm not especially advocating for him to play there though, I just think people are being harsh in their criticism and don't put it into perspective. We could only really judge him as a 'finished product' in CM if he was given 15-20 games there against different types of opposition. So far, it's too marginal to draw real conclusions, we can only pick up little elements.

 

[Red Dreams]

Just buy a midfielder and let Rooney play upfront with RvP

Easy really.

we will never get a Roy Keane...but anyone close...and we will destroy almost all teams.

 

[Theon]

If he already moved, passed and defended like a first rate midfielder there wouldn't be anything to discuss. If he can indeed make this transition the movement will come as he settles into the role. Scholes didn't move like a deep lying play making genius when his role was a more offensive one.

Whether he can be transformed, whether the experiment is worth it – these are legitimate questions. But you can't use Rooney's present limitations (such as the fact that he doesn't move around off the ball like a natural born midfielder) as an argument against him becoming an excellent CM. IF he settles into the role his movement will change, as will his short passing and all the rest of it. The premise here is that Rooney has the potential to re-invent himself as a midfielder – nobody's saying he already is one.

This is how I feel too.

 

[Theon]

Just buy a midfielder and let Rooney play upfront with RvP

Easy really.

Yeah I would be interested in seeing how that partnership would work with Rooney playing as a proper striker, as he did in 09-10. The proplem is that at the moment he's been used behind Van Persie as an attacking midfielder/in the hole, and IMO hasn't been good enough there. He has great stats but this season his general play and touch hasn't been good enough to play such a nuanced position.. and we have a more suitable number 10 in Kagawa.

feck knows really, but I can see where you're coming from them both playing as strikers. As others have said though we would be light in midfield and build-up with Rooney playing more advanced.

 

[adexkola]

4-4-2 isn't dead unless one thinks it's absolutely necessary to play the pressing/ball retention/possession game.

You can't combine the 4-4-2 with the modern ideal of “dominating” your matches, however. That will never happen with us as long as we keep playing a two-man midfield with more or less “proper” wingers on each flank. That style necessarily involves – against top sides that swear to some form of pressing – conceding possession to an extent the likes of Barca would never dream of.

It's a style, not least, which demands a very solid defence. But if you do have that, and if your strikers and wingers are first rate, the formation – and this is the upside – may be very effective against pressing/possession teams: They often don't deal well with traditional, counter attacking wing play.

It's a trade-off, basically. I don't see tucking in your wingers and employing a pressing second striker as any viable solution, really. If you go down that road you may as well ditch the idea and go for a more modern set-up allround, as I see it. You have to play a high-stakes game: Concede possession and make sure that you A) have a tight enough defence to deal with the inevitable pressure – and B) have excellent counter attacking players. We were onto something against Real – before Nani's red card. The way we played up until that point is something close to what I'm talking about here. Our opponents “dominated” us in terms of possession but they weren't allowed to exploit it. We looked more dangerous when we attacked with full commitment than they did.

Agreed.