Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

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Rozay said:
It's a bit of a fine line though I reckon. I think there is room to say that while Rooney has become a top player, he hasn't developed into the type of player initially predicted.

And while 'The White Pele' is of course an extremely high standard, the point was - that was genuinely what people thought Rooney was capable of becoming. I mean, Messi was often compared to Diego in his younger years, and he has since gone on to justify that (and then some!). Many thought Rooney could go on to be one of the greats of the game, but then I don't think the answer is always to say in hindsight that 'those predictions were too harsh/impossible'. Some players are actually that talented that they can go on to justify, as Messi has proven. Therefore, perhaps Rooney was put into that bracket himself, and as good as he has become, he has still fallen short of it.

It's easy to say it was unfair to compare Rooney to the greats but very fair to compare Messi to the greats in hindsight. At the time, United fans would have been arguing with everyone left, right and centre that Rooney was not inferior to Messi and Ronaldo.
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That's exactly it though. This whole Messi/Ronaldo comparison stuff is crazy. We're talking about two players who reallly will go down in history as up there with Pele and Maradonna.

Implying that Rooney is somehow an unfulfilled talent on the basis that he might not be considered one of the best 3 or 4 players ever to have kicked a football is really just a reflection of how silly it is to call any young footballer "the next Pele/Maradonna/Messi/Ronaldo". There's a whole lot of absolutely fantastic footballers in a tier or two below that and it's borderline disrespectful to consider them as also rans because they didn't reach the very pinnacle of footballing greatness.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That's exactly it though. This whole Messi/Ronaldo comparison stuff is crazy. We're talking about two players who reallly will go down in history as up there with Pele and Maradonna.

Implying that Rooney is somehow an unfulfilled talent on the basis that he might not be considered one of the best 3 or 4 players ever to have kicked a football is really just a reflection of how silly it is to call any young footballer "the next Pele/Maradonna/Messi/Ronaldo". There's a whole lot of absolutely fantastic footballers in a tier or two below that and it's borderline disrespectful to consider them as also rans because they didn't reach the very pinnacle of footballing greatness.
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It isn't considering them 'also rans' though. Instead, it is as simple as saying that 'He's an excellent footballer, although there was a time I thought he was going to go on to become one of the best players ever'.

Just because a player eventually ended up a tier below the very best does not mean they may not have once had the potential to become one of the very best. Rooney himself is an example - there may have been an English bias, but many United/England fans thought he was right up there with Messi/Ronaldo 6 years ago, with many claiming he was better than them. Surely, from such a position, for the other two to leave him so far behind, it is not an outrageous thought for those who believed he was as good as them to feel he could/should have been better.

This is no attempt to knock Rooney from me personally, although I do vividly recall this whole 'Rooney is our best player' thing even when Ronaldo was here. Many United fans claimed Rooney was better for a few years, so I don't get why it is so ludicrous to assess Rooney in the context of Ronaldo. I've made the point before that many United fans were all too happy to compare the two players when there was a consensus that Rooney was the better player, although now it's a case of 'stop picking on Rooney, let him be who he is'.

So, to use your words, 'implying that Rooney is an unfulfilled talent' for not being as good as Ronnie/Messi is not that outrageous when you consider that many used to boldly state he was the best of the lot. I mean, in my view, he was never as gifted as them - but to those who believed he was, they must surely feel some disappointment in his current level in comparison to theirs.
 
In hindsight Rooney never had that sort of talent. He was mature beyond his years and physically very imposing for such a young player but his technical ability, which while not bad at all wasn't going to match the likes of Ronaldo/ messi, meant that he had a lower ceiling to his game always which was perhaps masked to many of us by aforementioned physical and mental development.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
In hindsight Rooney never had that sort of talent. He was mature beyond his years and physically very imposing for such a young player but his technical ability, which while not bad at all wasn't going to match the likes of Ronaldo/ messi, meant that he had a lower ceiling to his game always which was perhaps masked to many of us by aforementioned physical and mental development.
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I'd agree with that. As a young player what really stood out was his (footballing) intelligence, vision and decision-making, which were freakishly advanced for his age. This advantage was never going to last once his peers matured.
 
Rozay said:
This is no attempt to knock Rooney from me personally, although I do vividly recall this whole 'Rooney is our best player' thing even when Ronaldo was here. Many United fans claimed Rooney was better for a few years, so I don't get why it is so ludicrous to assess Rooney in the context of Ronaldo. I've made the point before that many United fans were all too happy to compare the two players when there was a consensus that Rooney was the better player, although now it's a case of 'stop picking on Rooney, let him be who he is'.
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All such comparisons ceased after 2006/07, and for a good reason.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
In hindsight Rooney never had that sort of talent. He was mature beyond his years and physically very imposing for such a young player but his technical ability, which while not bad at all wasn't going to match the likes of Ronaldo/ messi, meant that he had a lower ceiling to his game always which was perhaps masked to many of us by aforementioned physical and mental development.
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The weird thing is that wonder goals from him don't seem to be there any more. Is the overhead kick the last one? When was the last time he scored a volley or screamer? I know that's not the be all and end all but it's strange how it's happened.
 
VeevaVee said:
The weird thing is that wonder goals from him don't seem to be there any more. Is the overhead kick the last one? When was the last time he scored a volley or screamer? I know that's not the be all and end all but it's strange how it's happened.
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Think thats because his first thought when he picks the ball up outside the box is to spray it out wide.
 
Rooney is taking quite the beating on here lately. I had him down as one of our better players on Monday.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That's exactly it though. This whole Messi/Ronaldo comparison stuff is crazy. We're talking about two players who reallly will go down in history as up there with Pele and Maradonna.

Implying that Rooney is somehow an unfulfilled talent on the basis that he might not be considered one of the best 3 or 4 players ever to have kicked a football is really just a reflection of how silly it is to call any young footballer "the next Pele/Maradonna/Messi/Ronaldo". There's a whole lot of absolutely fantastic footballers in a tier or two below that and it's borderline disrespectful to consider them as also rans because they didn't reach the very pinnacle of footballing greatness.
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Not just Messi & Ronaldo we can compare Rooney to. There are Xavi, Iniesta, Mata, and our own Scholes, Keano, Vidic, and Ferdinand. They are world class, consistent, and dependable; which Rooney isn't.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I'd agree with that. As a young player what really stood out was his (footballing) intelligence, vision and decision-making, which were freakishly advanced for his age. This advantage was never going to last once his peers matured.
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I disagree with this. This is again, a convenient statement to make in hindsight. If I took everybody back 6 years, good chance they would not be saying this.

Personally, I never thought Rooney was as gifted as the other two, but I do think that there were facets of his game as a young player that, had he maintained in his arsenal, would make him a better player today. I don't buy that he just stood out for his intelligence, decision making and vision as a youngster. Tom Cleverley perhaps so, but Wayne Rooney certainly had a spark about him that got people off their feet. He was an exciting player, not a functional one. If he had maintained the ability to run at players, kept the same pace, still scored outrageous volleys and generally had the same level of x-factor that he once had - then he'd be closer to the great player that was professed when he emerged.

He has, of course, replaced all of this with a better statistical output, but he certainly isn't as exciting/electrifying as he was at 20.
 
Rozay said:
I disagree with this. This is again, a convenient statement to make in hindsight. If I took everybody back 6 years, good chance they would not be saying this.

Personally, I never thought Rooney was as gifted as the other two, but I do think that there were facets of his game as a young player that, had he maintained in his arsenal, would make him a better player today. I don't buy that he just stood out for his intelligence, decision making and vision as a youngster. Tom Cleverley perhaps, but Wayne Rooney certainly had a spark about him that got people off their feet. He was an exciting player, not a functional one. If he had maintained the ability to run at players, kept the same pace, still scored outrageous volleys and generally had the same level of x-factor that he once had - then he'd be closer to the great player that was professed when he emerged.

He has, of course, replaced all of this with a better statistical output, but he certainly isn't as exciting/electrifying as he was at 20.
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Excellently put. He is a lot more functional and efficient now. As exciting? Of course not. A much better player? Definitely.
 
Can someone specify a few of these "outrageous volleys" he apparently used to score more regularly than he does now? I can think of two in his whole career. One of them very recently.

That was the point I was making about "screamers". He never scored them very frequently. Certainly no more frequently than he has in the last couple of years. The one thing he used to do in his first couple of seasons that he doesn't do much these days is dribble his man. Much easier to do as a relatively unknown quantity though. He's never been a very technical dribbler so it didn't take defenders long to work out his limited array of tricks. Not to mention that he's much more likely to find himself being doubled up on by defenders, now he's an established star.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Can someone specify a few of these "outrageous volleys" he apparently used to score more regularly than he does now? I can think of two in his whole career. One of them very recently.

That was the point I was making about "screamers". He never scored them very frequently. Certainly no more frequently than he has in the last couple of years. The one thing he used to do in his first couple of seasons that he doesn't do much these days is dribble his man. Much easier to do as a relatively unknown quantity though. He's never been a very technical dribbler so it didn't take defenders long to work out his limited array of tricks. Not to mention that he's much more likely to find himself being doubled up on by defenders, now he's an established star.
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The only two I remember were his Everton debut (vs Arsenal?) and the one at Newcastle. Were there others?
 
The two big smashers that come to mind instantly are the goal against Arsenal when he was about 11 years old and the one against Newcastle whilst arguing with the ref. :drool:
 
He isn't dribbling as he used to mainly because he lost his explosiveness, not because defenders learned his tricks.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
The two big smashers that come to mind instantly are the goal against Arsenal when he was about 11 years old and the one against Newcastle whilst arguing with the ref. :drool:
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The Arsenal goal wasn't a volley. It was almost a carbon copy of his recent goal against Norwich.

The Newcastle goal was incredible. The bicycle kick against City would run it close though.
 
He also scored a great volley against Boro' in the FA Cup (in addition to scoring a chip from outside the box in the same game). Saha knocked it down and he volleyed in from about 25 yards.
 
Rozay said:
He also scored a great volley against Boro' in the FA Cup (in addition to scoring a chip from outside the box in the same game). Saha knocked it down and he volleyed in from about 25 yards.
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Yes. That was a cracker. Make that three great volleys in his career so far. One of them very recently. Nowhere near enough to identify some kind of decline.
 
He was far more frustrating in terms of end product back then. For every spectacular volley there was a horrible miss from close range or a poor pass in a threatening area.

Even on his debut with that hattrick against Fenerbache he stupidly cleared the ball from the halfway line out for a corner which they scored from.

He's much more consistent and a better player even if he doesn't scored a spectacular volley from outside the area as often.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Can someone specify a few of these "outrageous volleys" he apparently used to score more regularly than he does now? I can think of two in his whole career. One of them very recently.

That was the point I was making about "screamers". He never scored them very frequently. Certainly no more frequently than he has in the last couple of years. The one thing he used to do in his first couple of seasons that he doesn't do much these days is dribble his man. Much easier to do as a relatively unknown quantity though. He's never been a very technical dribbler so it didn't take defenders long to work out his limited array of tricks. Not to mention that he's much more likely to find himself being doubled up on by defenders, now he's an established star.
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Regarding the dribbling, I think he just isn't as dynamic as he once was. He doesn't need a great array of tricks. Valencia has used the most basic of means to go by people.

I'm not sure him previously being an unknown quantity and now being doubled up on is valid either. He's been an 'established star' almost since he scored that goal against Arsenal. Everyone knew about him and everyone was scared of him. He was also initially a better dribbler when he joined us. For £27m. Hardly a secret. I just don't think he moves in the same sort of way he once did.

Just to clarify our positions once and for all, do you think Rooney was a more exciting player in his younger days Pogue?
 
Years ago, I remember Fergie telling a story of the first time he saw Rooney. It was a youth game against Everton, and this kid was raining shots on the United goal from every angle, and Fergie said to himself "What's this?"
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The Arsenal goal wasn't a volley. It was almost a carbon copy of his recent goal against Norwich.

The Newcastle goal was incredible. The bicycle kick against City would run it close though.
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I know the arsenal goal was off the ground but it was such a memorable strike I had to mention it.

The Newcastle goal was his best for me.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
I know the arsenal goal was off the ground but it was such a memorable strike I had to mention it.

The Newcastle goal was his best for me.
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The Newcastle goal was special, but I think the City one was just about better.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Can someone specify a few of these "outrageous volleys" he apparently used to score more regularly than he does now? I can think of two in his whole career. One of them very recently.

That was the point I was making about "screamers". He never scored them very frequently. Certainly no more frequently than he has in the last couple of years. The one thing he used to do in his first couple of seasons that he doesn't do much these days is dribble his man. Much easier to do as a relatively unknown quantity though. He's never been a very technical dribbler so it didn't take defenders long to work out his limited array of tricks. Not to mention that he's much more likely to find himself being doubled up on by defenders, now he's an established star.
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He didn't necessarily score more screamers back then, but I'm 100% sure there were more of those long range attempts which probably made it more exciting. I think fans are frustrated because he just doesn't attempt as many as he should, and he does get into a lot of decent positions.

And I think there is no doubt he has lost his pace, not saying he is shitter now or anything. He is just a different player to what some of us envisaged.
 
Rozay said:
The Newcastle goal was special, but I think the City one was just about better.
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There was one from a season or two back when he was actually playing shit. VDS booted it up to him, he controlled and hit a half-volley into the top corner. Villa at home. One of my favourites.

Regarding his dribbling, Rooney never seems to attempt stuff like this anymore. Fantastic run.

 
He's too calm, that's the problem..

He needs hate and never-say-die -attitude to get the juices flowing and him to be a scary figure in the eyes of the opposition.. Nowdays he's the one who comes to break people from each other's throats and the referee is actually the only person who gets a bit of the "old" Rooney from time to time.

The good thing that the mondays game might bring in the long run would actually be the return of that "old" Wayne Rooney.. That was the game we'd been waiting for ever since Real and now all we have to do is put the League to rest with..

We have players like Valencia, Young, Carrick who might mentaly need the maniac back beside them and it would be the right call from the management to have a little chat with Wayne about the Stoke game.. The opponent couldn't be more perfect to start him up..


We need this back:
rooney-camera_1863616b.jpg
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yes. That was a cracker. Make that three great volleys in his career so far. One of them very recently. Nowhere near enough to identify some kind of decline.
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I never said he was banging in volleys left, right and centre. I just asked when the last time he scored one was. I think wonnie has it right, he was probably just more exciting to watch back then even if he didn't necessarily score better goals. I think a lot of us expected him to score more and more special goals but it seems like the opposite has happened.
I still have faith in Rooney as a United player, I just don't have faith in him to deliver when he steps onto the pitch. If that makes sense?
 
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