How so? Only Kagawa looked more likely to make something happen going forwards than Welbeck imo.
Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
- Thread starter gooDevil
- Start date
- Status
How so? Only Kagawa looked more likely to make something happen going forwards than Welbeck imo.
Rooney had a typical day off for him: poor first touch, bad passing, not getting into good positions. One goal would change all that
Welbeck didn't distribute jack all to the other players, didn't get any dangerous crosses in and didn't do much, at all. Invisible.
Rooney, as Pogue pointed out, completed 82% of his passes; pretty much any pass that wasn't within 5 metres of the 18 yard box, he completed; i.e. he gave the ball to Kagawa/ Nani /Valencia in dangerous areas.
Welbeck was our most invisible player imo. He's not a wide forward.
Dislike for Rooney?
I fecking love the guy.
If "bashing" him is saying he's a great player but admitting to some of his flaws then yeah.
If "bashing" him is saying he's not on par with 2 of the best midfielders to ever play the game then yeah.
If "bashing" him is saying that RVP, the current POTY, may be better than him and is thought of as better by many neautrals, then yeah.
I'm simply a realist when it comes to Rooney, he's a great footballer but sometimes we have a tendancy is over-hype him.
I just don't see it anymore. In games where he is tightly marked, his touch and technical ability, ability to turn and create space, composure to pick the right option at the right time, his execution and weight of pass in and around the box, his ability to pull a goal out of nothing. Imo is just not nearly consistent enough.
He scores goals if he gets the right service, but in my view world class players should be able to make the difference on their own.
If he is WC then i don't know what that would make Bergkamp, Platini, Stoichkov, Iniesta and other similar type of off the front man playmakers. He just doesn't show anywhere near that level of ability imo.
he was poor last time but like usual he will come back and score goals and he is a world class footballer yet again.
He needs a complete haircut, I blame the "hair".
Well, for me....there are many more highs with Rooney than lows and I will never ever forget the feeling of elation when THAT wonder goal against city hit the back of the net....
Well I completely disagree that he's in this tier just below Ronaldo and Messi which inclues him, Xavi and Iniesta. For me, he's definitely in the tier below them and in a very crowded one. The likes of Van Persie, Vidic, Villa etc would all be in that tier for me and I'd put Van Persie marginally ahead of Rooney because I've never seen Rooney perform at the level Van Persie did last year. I'm not sure he's ahead of Vidic for me either. The latter is a phenomenal defender IMO.
Basically I think there's an elite bunch of players including Messi and Ronaldo and a few others and then a group of many top players who I wouldn't incude amongst this elite but are great players in their own right. Rooney would be part of the latter for me.
I've heard that sentance associated to Rooney more then any other player. Ever.
"He just needs a goal" It's more likely just an off day. That's it. They happen. Granted Rooney tends to have a few of those but it's not uncommon. Especially on the first day of the season.
Yeh I'd agree with that.
367 appearances, 182 goals.
4 PL titles, 2 League Cups and a CL title.
HTH.
4 PL titles, 2 League Cups and a CL title.
HTH.
So? feckin League cups!
That's Rooney's record over 10 years, here's what Andy Cole won in 6.Andy Cole: Manchester United
195 apps - 93 goals
Premier League (5): 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01
FA Cup (2): 1995–96, 1998–99
FA Charity Shield (2): 1996, 1997
UEFA Champions League (1): 1998–99
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999
Proves nothing really does it!
Seems a lot of effort to go to show that the team has been similarly successful with Rooney up top as it was when Andy Cole led the line during our most successful single season in the history of the club.
Dislike for Rooney?
I fecking love the guy.
If "bashing" him is saying he's a great player but admitting to some of his flaws then yeah.
If "bashing" him is saying he's not on par with 2 of the best midfielders to ever play the game then yeah.
If "bashing" him is saying that RVP, the current POTY, may be better than him and is thought of as better by many neautrals, then yeah.
I'm simply a realist when it comes to Rooney, he's a great footballer but sometimes we have a tendancy is over-hype him.
I did write "bashing" as I couldn't really find an appropriate word for it, since it's not like you were pounding on him, just that I've only heard negatives and not many (if any) positives.
I'm aware of his flaws, he's far from perfect, but he's definitely above the vast majority of players out there, and yes I dare say he's on the same level. Obviously different players, and they sure bring a lot to the game, however I think one must account for the fact that they play in a totaly different system and one that is primarily focused on Messi, Xavi and Iniesta, all world-class players who subsequently make others around them that much better as well.
And as much as I rate them, I wouldn't say Xavi and Iniesta are the best midfielders to ever play the game.
And see, I don't understand where do you get this from? I mean, I'm not calling you a liar, just find it strange to believe that most people you talk to rate RvP higher than Rooney, when in my case I don't think I've even heard an Arsenal fan (I know like 4 of them in my local area) telling me that RvP is better than Rooney. The closest one got was by saying he rates Rooney as the better player but wouldn't switch RvP for him if he came down to it, because he just loved him so much, ofcourse now he's "a cnut".
the tier just below Ronaldo and Messi is quite a bit behind the 2 of them IMO in the first place.
You've never seen Rooney perform at the level of RvP last year, when infact he had a better goal to game ratio, only played less minutes than him, while also not being the guy the team had to turn to nearly every game to get things done.
If you have a good enough squad around you, and you're like the only capable striker (and of the quality RvP and the like are) you're bound to score shitloads of goals. Not trying to take anything away from him, I just don't see how he was that much better like some people claim he was.
Vidič for me is/was the best defender CB in the world (I'll have to pass judgement in a few games when Vidič gets back to his usual fitness level, but I think he's still got it), although due to him being injured I don't think there's any denying it's Kompany's title to lose this year. Even so, I don't like rating a striker over a defender or vice versa, same way you wouldn't compare Valencia to De Gea. They're both one of the best players in their field, but if I had to rate players I'd rate attackers seperately from defenders, etc. simply because I don't see how I could come to a fair judgement, they're doing completely different things out on the pitch.
Fair enough, to each his own, and you maid your point, but I currently consider him to be in the top 5 players in the world category.
That's where I stopped reading.
Cause if you don't rate Xavi and Iniesta as 2 of the best midfielders to ever play the game, you're an imbecile.
So? feckin League cups!
Andy Cole: Manchester United
195 apps - 93 goals
Premier League (5): 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01
FA Cup (2): 1995–96, 1998–99
FA Charity Shield (2): 1996, 1997
UEFA Champions League (1): 1998–99
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999
Proves nothing really does it!
This is a strange argument.
Are you saying they're both good? Both shit? Are the trophies even relevant?
I don't get it.
I think apotheosis was just trying to show that a trophy list doesn't exactly "prove" anything.
To be fair he did say "the best" rather than "2 of the best".
But in reply to my post where I called them "2 of the best".
It "proves" that the main striker for any team that succesful is a bloody good player.
Which is, weirdly, the opposite of what I think he was trying to prove!
Definitely.
Was it?
I didn't bother reading back to see what he was getting at, I assumed he meant that great stats and trophies don't prove a player is World Class, just proof that someone is a great footballer.
I rate them very highly, both in the top 5 players in the world, but for me they're not the best. If I was asked to make the best XI I wouldn't include them (maybe Xavi, but it depends on the system, etc), but not because of their faults or anything, it's just that there have been way too many great midfielders that make it impossible for me to leave them out.
But it's great that you focused on one sentence of my post, one which you also missinterpreted.
Was a huge effort, i have spent the 2 hours since resting from my exertions.
I hate posts like that, as though what he has won in 10 years determines whether or not he should be placed amongst the world's elite. When you are at Utd you win trophies, doesn't determine your quality beyond a certain level, unless we are suggesting everyone who has played and been successful at the club is world class.
Andy Cole won more in far less time, yet was not as good as Rooney. So the initial post was proved to be immaterial, instead of definitive which is surely how it was intended.
And there's a gap between the other "elite" players and the group with Rooney in it IMO.
Rooney simply wasn't as good as Van Persie last year. Van Persie didn't just score goals, he was absolutely brilliant. Carried the team for most of the season and scored more goals through sheer individual brilliance. It was a level reminiscent of Henry and Ronaldo for me, whilst being below. I don't personally think Rooney has hit that level before.
Are you saying it's easier to score goals for a team where Girvinho and Walcott are providing you with chances as opposed to Nani and Valencia? We're a better team. We have more areas of threat and chance creation than Arsenal.
Yet you're including Rooney is your list of "elite" players and not Vidic or Kompany, so clearly you are making some sort of comparison. Unless you're list was just of attacking players which wouldn't count for as much.
Was a huge effort, i have spent the 2 hours since resting from my exertions.
I hate posts like that, as though what he has won in 10 years determines whether or not he should be placed amongst the world's elite. When you are at Utd you win trophies, doesn't determine your quality beyond a certain level, unless we are suggesting everyone who has played and been successful at the club is world class.
Andy Cole won more in far less time, yet was not as good as Rooney. So the initial post was proved to be immaterial, instead of definitive which is surely how it was intended.
Yup, trophies mean the most at the end of the day, but one can't rate a certain individual over another one simply because player X won more trophies than player in Y (regarding team sports, ofcourse).
For instance in the NBA you've got Robert Horry who not many people outside the "real fans" even remember, he actually won 7 titles in his 16 year carreer, and is tied at #7 on the all-time championship rings' list. Yet nobody mentions him as one of the best players.
Oh and just for the record, the ones above him and with the same number of rings as him are all players of the 1950-60 Celtics that dominated the league for more than a decade on the back of Bill Russell.
I hope you get what I'm trying to say, I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything like that, I just have a different opinion to yours and I feel that if we both manage to present our thoughts in a good manner there shouldn't be any harm.
Fair enough, agree to disagree, OGKush. And of course everyone is entitled to an opinion and neither's is fact.
That's not entirely true, if I'm the poster then it's fact!
Yeah, I got that vibe sometimes
What gave it away? my username?
We should just change the thread title to "The Wayne Rooney Is Very Good Thread". Then there'll be less of a debate of him being world class (which he probably isn't considering this thread gets bumped more often with people highlighting his poor performances which comes by often these days, than when he puts in a fantastic one which seems hard to come by).
Why don't we just changed it to "Wayne Rooney"? That way everything won't be discussed in relation to tiers, brackets and a term, the meaning of which changes from person to person.
Sensible.
Done. Enjoy the change
Exactly. Plus i hate posts where people just trot out stats or trophy hauls and leave them hanging in the air like that, as if they are so undeniably definitive that the discussion should end right there!
Considering he plays for our club, and that there is usually a certain bias for fans of any club to overstate the quality of their own players. The fact we do not have anywhere near an overwhelming majority who think he is world class, within our own fans, can probably be taken as very good evidence that he isn't.
World class footballers are pretty widely acknowledged as such, even by rival fans, however begrudgingly! There is often very little need to forcefully debate the issue.
I doubt very much you would find many fans from any club, refuting Paul Scholes' status as world class!
From a non Utd fan's perspective I'd say the opinions on Rooney's class are very mixed.
Many outside the country think he's world class. Many think his regular dips in form keep him from being in that upper tier of player.
I'd tend to lean more to the latter though I have to say that when he's on a good run of form he's most definitely up there with the best strikers in the game.
Many outside the country think he's world class. Many think his regular dips in form keep him from being in that upper tier of player.
I'd tend to lean more to the latter though I have to say that when he's on a good run of form he's most definitely up there with the best strikers in the game.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/data...11-12-player-attributes-calculated?CMP=twt_gu
For all the talk about Rooney's game regressing from his younger days it's interesting to see that Rooney was given the best score, by a distance, for his 'long shots aptitude' last season. Which backs up what people have been saying about this being his best year in that sense for a long, long while. Perhaps the best in his career. His dribbling also scores pretty highly (roughly the same as Silva and but miles behind someone like Nani), and his passing's quite good as well (roughly the same as Mata). His first touch is appalling though. The stats are all pretty boring so I've not even bothered to look into the methodology of it but he said this about the first touch scoring - "scores for first touch are calculated by multiplying a player's average number of 'successful touches' per match by the proportion of all touches he takes that are 'successful'".
For all the talk about Rooney's game regressing from his younger days it's interesting to see that Rooney was given the best score, by a distance, for his 'long shots aptitude' last season. Which backs up what people have been saying about this being his best year in that sense for a long, long while. Perhaps the best in his career. His dribbling also scores pretty highly (roughly the same as Silva and but miles behind someone like Nani), and his passing's quite good as well (roughly the same as Mata). His first touch is appalling though. The stats are all pretty boring so I've not even bothered to look into the methodology of it but he said this about the first touch scoring - "scores for first touch are calculated by multiplying a player's average number of 'successful touches' per match by the proportion of all touches he takes that are 'successful'".
- Status