Which puts him in the top 10.
Victor Osimhen | out of options | goes to Gala on loan
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Which puts him in the top 10.
Please prove the bolded part.
If we have all the players, and ETH decided to play stupidly like Spalletti then no, we don't beat that team not playing to our strength. ETH team doesn't shy to put in crosses. ETH is not that dumb, one dimensional.
Rashford getting doubled teamed like this and against a low block would easily seeing him marked out of the game. Rashford being most effective when there is space in behind to run into off the ball, or kick and run.
Osinhem is not only thriving with space. He can cause havoc in crowded box with the right approach. Very good poacher do that. You don't drop deep and have nobody in the box when your team already able to pin back opposition. Benzema, Kane would stay in the box in that situation too. Even fox in the box like Gabriel Jesus does that. Martial does not fancy himself in the box, and that prevented him to develop into a proper CF couple years back when he's still fit and healthy. There is a reason Ole brought in Cavani who played Martial out of the team.
For wingers in Serie A, yes, but not for all players.
You don't use stats in good faith.
For example NDombele in top 10 in that list. He made less than 1 dribbling per game. Play 660 minutes.
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/321389/Show/Tanguy-Ndombélé
There is no quantity about what kind of dribbling he does. Attacking or dribbling backward.
How about this?
https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/42/stats/season/17697/players/won_contest/champions-league-players
Why Kvaratskhelia here in CL is higher?
What metric to quantity these dribbling stats?
Some of the qualities people are attributing to Osimhen is falsehood.
I’m beginning to think his biggest supporters on this forum don’t watch him enough to shut down the opinionof people with doubts.
You can’t have a clumsy hold up and people equate it to being very good, that first contact has to be pristine. He has a particular street fighter quality that is unmatched and majority of his goals are borne from that.
Whether he will fit well at United is up in the air till he gets here. With Bruno and Eriksen I think he will be ace but the wide forwards don’t look a good marriage.
I’m beginning to think his biggest supporters on this forum don’t watch him enough to shut down the opinionof people with doubts.
You can’t have a clumsy hold up and people equate it to being very good, that first contact has to be pristine. He has a particular street fighter quality that is unmatched and majority of his goals are borne from that.
Whether he will fit well at United is up in the air till he gets here. With Bruno and Eriksen I think he will be ace but the wide forwards don’t look a good marriage.
A key thing about dribbling stats is that they are impacted if, say, you are so obviously good at dribbling that teams set up tactically to try to address that specific problem. As Milan did today, for example.
Nonethless, as per Fbref, no player in Serie A has attempted more take-ons than Kvara this season. And in terms of the players who beat him per 90, only one comes remotely close in terms of total attempts (145 vs 116), indicating that relatively limited minutes have skewed the per 90 metric in their favour.
Stats are great but sometimes watching a player play should prompt you to wonder if any additional context is needed.
Nonethless, as per Fbref, no player in Serie A has attempted more take-ons than Kvara this season. And in terms of the players who beat him per 90, only one comes remotely close in terms of total attempts (145 vs 116), indicating that relatively limited minutes have skewed the per 90 metric in their favour.
Stats are great but sometimes watching a player play should prompt you to wonder if any additional context is needed.
https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/47/stats/season/17664/players/won_contest/premier-league-players
That site is using some non context math to calculate their rating, because when Saka is not even in top 30 of PL in your league, you're sure as hell know that you're analyzing the game wrongly.
Hmm, wouldn't be so sure. FBref says the same regarding Saka. 68th percentile for take-ons, and whenever I watch him, he doesn't really dribble a lot.
I won't claim I watched that many Arsenal game, but he's fairly one of the better dribbler (not just volume stat padding). Not gonna drag out you say, I say, so let's look at how fallible the algorithm this website can be:
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/402596/Show/Elliot-Anderson
In top 10 dribbler per 90 minute in PL from the site you used. He had a little under 200 minutes in the league. 0.3 dribbles per game from Whoscored. Somehow he's ranked 8 in that list with 33.3% dribbling percentage.
https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/47/stats/season/17664/players/won_contest/premier-league-players
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Osimhen's knack of scoring headers is impressive. No idea if we have a realistic chance of signing him in the summer but that's one trait that would be massively useful in this team. That said, a goalscorer of any kind wouldn't go amiss!
The stats seem correct, but I agree with you that players with that small amount of minutes shouldn't be there. At the very least they should add a filter so we can choose "show only with 1000 mins played" or something similar.
Here we are again with people who watch football matches now being confused by some numbers that they read elsewhere.
Kvaratshkelia is obviously a good dribbler. We can see that when we watch him. What are we supposed to do with info like ‘Kvara is in the 39th percentile of dribblers?’
I know this is a sensitive topic for many so kinda just winding people up here!
Kvaratshkelia is obviously a good dribbler. We can see that when we watch him. What are we supposed to do with info like ‘Kvara is in the 39th percentile of dribblers?’
I know this is a sensitive topic for many so kinda just winding people up here!
To be fair no one gets on well with Antony as far as chemistry goes. He's not exactly the most selfless player
Also take on % kind of sucks as a stat for me because in any more possession based dominant team, every decent player is going to be looking to pass and move a good bit and not just take on a defender every time they get the ball. Even Vinicius, who is one of the best 1v1 players in the world, isn't sitting there running at people constantly.
Indeed. That said, I will still stand by my belief that you can see if a footballer is good at dribbling by having watched him play football regularly. Having to go and read whether a footballer you watch is good at dribbling will never not seem bizarre to me. You mentioned Vinicius for example. Any nonsense that says ‘he is in the 60th percentile for dribbling’ or ‘statistically he is a poor dribbler’ or whatever would instantly be disregarded by me, personally. I am certain that Harry Maguire is good in the air and Wan-Bissaka is good at tackling and I would expect any numbers to reflect that, but if they do not, then I will treat any such numbers as bollocks.
I’m now officially an OG I guess talking some ‘back in my day’ stuff, I can see that I’m looked at as some sort of dinosaur with my approach! Maybe one day I’ll get into the statistical microanalysis of the game but I’m just not there yet. Perhaps if I were a scout or sports scientist then I would bit as a fan I don’t think I need to, not yet anyway.
Anyway, apologies for bringing my old man anti-stats moaning in here!
How many headed goals does Haaland have for City and how many headed goals does Osimhen have for Napoli in their respective leagues, start there.
Then understand that Rashford isn't going to become a balanced wide forward like Grealish or Mahrez for City, or Martinelli or Saka for Arsenal or even Son. Marcus is a goal scorer plain and simple now. He's getting into positions entering the box. If Martial was fit, he'd make the difference between easily in 3rd place if not at least 2nd. Martial would easily be around 8 to 10 goals in the league by now.
But there is a clear difference between how Martial plays and how the team plays, compared to Osimhen plays and how he plays at Napoli.
I'm not disputing that Osimhen is a very good goal scorer, but what I am correctly questioning is how he would fit within the United squad and how that meshes with Marcus and Antony, assuming they are first choice wide players with Garnacho, Sancho, and I guess you can throw Pellestri and Amad in there too. Those players don't spam crosses and hope you can make a good run and good headed attempt for a goal.
While they have the ability to do so (crosses) and have done so, it's not their first thought of head up and cross into space, just not their thing. They all make contributions going into the box and looking for the runs. Making the extra pass for a better opportunity.
Unless United get strong technical players out wide who can cross a ball and pass in general from anywhere into space and have a Haaland to aim for, Osimhen will require even more adjustment and compromise to how they have been setup to play by EtH.
That is why keeping Martial (fit and available) is important and having a reliable starter health wise who is an asset for the team across multiple phases is key.
I'd rather have a Wayne Rooney type player come into CF than Osimhen. That's a Muani, Benzema, even Alvarez at City, Watkins at Villa, Kane...those would be more than sufficient and possibly with the exception of Kane, 2/3rds the cost plus much better continuity of play than Osimhen.
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Apparently he's a Drogba and I assume Chelsea fan. And Chelsea needs a striker as desperately as us.
Too many on here are conflating Osimhen's utilizing his aerial prowess with an inability to thrive without crosses. He is actually the type of striker who would also pretty much thrive on through balls and balls into feet in the box. In that aspect he is very similar to a Halaand. He comes very alive in the 18 yard box. Thanks to a hunger to press like a weghorst plus teachable natural goal scorer instinct.
As for our style of play currently. We currently don't have a single forward who knows how to consistently make near post and far post runs, for us to utilize crosses in the box. Nor one who makes it their domain. So we simply don't play that way. But if we DID have one. Ten Hag showed at Ajax he loves that crossing option a lot. And rather than our wide forwards benfiting most from link up play, they would benefit from a striker taking markers away from them with near or far post runs if they played alongside an osimhen type of forward.
As for our style of play currently. We currently don't have a single forward who knows how to consistently make near post and far post runs, for us to utilize crosses in the box. Nor one who makes it their domain. So we simply don't play that way. But if we DID have one. Ten Hag showed at Ajax he loves that crossing option a lot. And rather than our wide forwards benfiting most from link up play, they would benefit from a striker taking markers away from them with near or far post runs if they played alongside an osimhen type of forward.
Sometimes the way people talk about a possible Osimhen/Rashford combination makes it sound like a) they're not the very disimilar players they are or b) it's only possible or good to have one goal threat in the box at any given time, as if Osimhen being in the box automatically means Rashford has to spend all game out wide crossing the ball into him.
It's more like people see Rashford as Ronaldo's lite. Would Ronaldo look better with Haaland or Benzema type? Which combo that makes the team hold the game better?
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Using simple logic, a Ronaldo lite would require an upgraded version of Benzema which does not exist. Martial even at his best is still a Frankenstein downgrade version of Benzema, hence at their previous best, something still missing in Martial Rashford partnership. You still need someone like Cavani to show them how to do it another way.
I have my preference for Kane because I think instead of modeling after Ronaldo, Rashford can just stay one dimensional like Son, with Kane shoulder the volume of poachers goals.
We may watch different Son, because Rashford isn't anything close to Son.
Knew you would respond with stats. I use my eyes to judge dribbling ability.
Uh Kane, Watkins, Alvarez, Jesus, Muani, even Firmino at his pomp, Toney. Benzema and Lewi. There are players out there that haven't even mentioned.
Your eyes show you he's better than every other dribbler in Serie A then? You watch every single team in Serie A?
Prime CR7 was good even alongside Higuain who is nothing like Benzema.
I think Antony crossed far more at Ajax than he does here. When you see Anyony cut inside and go for a curler in to the far corner, at Ajax he used to cut inside onto his left foot slightly earlier, and curl it in to the bus for Haller to head home. At United, there is no target for him to aim for, so he has to shoot himself. Having a target man like Osimhen would allow him to mix it up, and I think he would provide loads of assets for Osimhen.
I'm not sure how Rashford and Osimhen would mesh, but I'm sure ETH would find a way to utilise two class players, and get them to complement one another. Even if it's just making dummy runs to drag defenders, I think they will certainly help each other. Then you also have Bruno and Eriksen providing through balls as well, so I think Osimhen would score lots of goals. A world class goal scorer would make the difference between where we are now and competing for the biggest prizes.
Exactly. It makes little sense. Its like the don't get the concept of having more room due to a mega goal thread occupying two players at all times centrally. Which is what a high end 9 would provide us. Especially one who does all the good things Wegorst does in terms of pressing, but just with pure pace and an actual hunger and eye for goal....
I don't think people are questioning his goal threat inside the box, but there is a world class striker available (although an aging one) that is a playmaker and fantastic in the box as well, so is it worth paying €150m for Osimhen which, undoubtedly, will be the price Napoli will demand?
To me, it feels like we've been so starved with a proper striker lately, that the only ability the fans are looking for is a finisher. But is that enough, especially when that striker isn't world class yet?
Even Napoli's coach, Luciano Spalletti, said that Osimhen has to learn to work with his team mates and that he demands more than just goals from Osimhen, and that he has to be more involved in the general play.
Aye, this season Antony crossed at the lowest rate of his career thus far.
And it's not just him. Bruno has also put in the lowest rate of crosses in his recorded career thus far. Ditto Rashford. Dalot the fewest since he joined United. Shaw half the crosses that he did in the two seasons before now. Etc etc.
As a team we've averaged fewer crosses per 90 this season than we have in any of the previous six seasons at least (I don't have the stats for before then). 60% of the crosses Ajax averaged per game under ETH last season. And only three teams in the league cross less often than us.
In other words (as you suggest) this season we and ETH have adjusted tactically to work around that absense of a target. But I would expect that to change with whichever striker we sign, be it Kane, Osimhen or whoever else. Because that approach this season is abnormal for both us and ETH and speaks to the chronic lack of a box threat the team has suffered from this season.
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I relied on anecdotal evidence (watching our playing style), but I appreciate your efforts to provide statistical evidence to back up my claims. I am just imaging an Osimhen type finisher and what a difference it would make to this team. I genuinely feel that we would be around 10 points better off, and competing for the title rather than still fighting for top 4. Combined with extra depth so that our first team players are not missed as badly (Eriksen and Martinez injuries and Casemiro suspension), we are not far off mounting a genuine title challenge.
When ETH joined I expected him to work miracles as he managed to do so at Ajax, immediately rebuilding a side when its best players were sold. Losing the first two games of the season was a big reality check, but having won the league cup, being 3rd in PL, and still in fa cup and europa league is not bad going for second half of April in his first season. Even when Solskjaer was on that long winning run (before he was hired as permanent manager) I wasn't filled with confidence that we had a plan. I just thought the players were well motivated. Now it appears that we have a manager who has a game plan and knows how to execute it. Exciting times ahead....
Ajax also, probably as a result of being the best team, had the ball more and in the final 3rd, you supply your attackers by any means.
Just seeing Napoli play again last night is exactly how Osimhen plays and needs service, especially when he doesn't have space to exploit or transition. He was marked well throughout and was on an island leading the line, not influencing the game.
Osimhen has to develop much more and needs to improve has United do, it will not just be United spamming crosses into the box. There always needs to be variation in attack and if Osimhen were to sign, he would have to improve in many phases.
EtH likes to build off foundations and have continuity, but also as it suits his team's qualities. Marcus isn't a particularly good crosser nor does he have a pass first mentality. We've all see how they link up around the box and Shaw has a wonderful cross. It doesn't require a very good goal scorer like Osimhen. There are other alternatives who are more well rounded.
Antony still has a lot to learn and grow, he's not even passing that well in the box and for others. Yes he had a wonderful ball for Dalot, but too many times this season he didn't instinctively pass for a better option.
And his price tag will cripple any reasonable transfer budget, which is fine if you're all about gradual transfers...one big deal and a few "smaller" ones.
Yeah. That's true also. Although Higuain didn't have a consistent career in Madrid. Also didn't Madrid win not much during that ROnaldo - Higuain combo? And then Madrid decided to go with Benzema.
They had a prime Messi/Barcelona combo to deal with, yet had a 100 points season in 2011/12
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–12_La_Liga
@edcunited1878
Napoli average the most possession in Serie A. Yet they don't average the most crosses, they're 7th. If they were a PL team they'd be 2nd for possession, 11th for crosses. And it's within that style of team that Osimhen has already flourished.
Talk of us "spamming crosses into the box" as if that's something we'd need to do with Osimhen in the side is a straight-forward misrepresentation of his current skillset as a striker. The reality is that he has scored a smaller proportion of his league/CL goals with his head this season than someone like Harry Kane has. This despite 5 of Kane's goals having been penalties, versus 0 of Osimhen's.
He would just give our currently cross-shy the option of crossing more, because that is one of his obvious threats. Something ETH will unquestionably want from any striker we sign given the heavy emphasis he has placed on having a target to create for in his previous teams and the obvious problems that lack of threat has caused for us this season.
Napoli average the most possession in Serie A. Yet they don't average the most crosses, they're 7th. If they were a PL team they'd be 2nd for possession, 11th for crosses. And it's within that style of team that Osimhen has already flourished.
Talk of us "spamming crosses into the box" as if that's something we'd need to do with Osimhen in the side is a straight-forward misrepresentation of his current skillset as a striker. The reality is that he has scored a smaller proportion of his league/CL goals with his head this season than someone like Harry Kane has. This despite 5 of Kane's goals having been penalties, versus 0 of Osimhen's.
He would just give our currently cross-shy the option of crossing more, because that is one of his obvious threats. Something ETH will unquestionably want from any striker we sign given the heavy emphasis he has placed on having a target to create for in his previous teams and the obvious problems that lack of threat has caused for us this season.
Very true but neither are Chelsea
Of course there's always a season like that. But at the end, Madrid chose Benzema, didn't they? That's when they started dominating Europe and La Liga.
But then, perhaps that's just when Ronaldo and Benzema were reaching their peak, and they had an excellent coach also.
Kind of ye and Higuain got a lucrative offers from Napoli after they had sold Cavani. Higuain wanted to be the main striker also.
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