Yes that was one great piece of defending indeed and saved our asses.
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This is the kind of defending he does best, slowing down the attack to get the team in place, and sometimes when it doesn't goes well he looks passive. I really like when one of two CD have this "skill" or way of playing. But I think he always will gett some hate for it.
Great game against Grenada. Get his back sorted out and we see it more often.
Yes, he is a cooperator and a game reader, and he appears ever more confident in affecting his comrades. Which is important as Maguire is a bit more act first think second, Wan Bissaka is green and positional defense is something Shaw has learned better, but it’s not his strength.
I agree. I get a strong feeling we're so used to lauding great tacklers at the club (Vidic, Pallister, Bruce, etc) that we don't give enough credit to the smarter defenders. I'm not saying Victor is close to his level but it was one of Rio's best strengths. Likewise, I see it at City with Dias who is a very similar player to Victor (although admittedly better).
Maguire and Victor have weaknesses but they complement each other a lot, especially in games against technical teams.
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Spot on.
Victors footballing IQ is very good. One of the smartest defenders in the game today. His reading of the game is great, and we are more organised with him on the pitch. He is also stronger and getting better at winning duels in the air. He is growing and developing. The parnership with Harry getting better and better.
I like the iceman more and more.
He's got better on the ball this season and that was another great pass for the assist, but he barely needed to defend againhst Granada. 4 clearances, 0 tackles, 1 interception and 1 aerial. Light work defensively.
Here's a great and honest breakdown of where Lindelof is at
So with all that data its easy to see that Lindelof is a player with very low defensive actions and low engagement with a player who has the ball Vs. other CBs but has pretty good numbers on the ball without setting the world alight.
I think we should also consider that we have the 5th highest amount of the ball in the league, lower than most teams who would be 2nd in a top division - although we still have more of the ball than Leicester.
So pretty good numbers on the ball when we dont have as much of the ball as a Barcelona, or City or someone like that must be a positive and if he played in a team that dominated the ball its likely that those stats would rise too. So maybe then he would be towards 80+ percentile in more of the on the ball stats and stand out more.
However if he played in a team with more of the ball, if anything his ball winning might go down. Its already very low so maybe it would stay the same. I think in a top team who dominate the ball he still wouldnt be first choice because of the weak areas in his defending and the importance of being aggressive and winning the ball to continue to dominate teams. But he'd be a good backup for games where teams dont have much of a threat on the counter and he pretty much just gets to pass the ball around all game and bring the ball out of defence. There will be games like that over the course of a season and there will be many where that isnt the case at all.
Here's a great and honest breakdown of where Lindelof is at
So with all that data its easy to see that Lindelof is a player with very low defensive actions and low engagement with a player who has the ball Vs. other CBs but has pretty good numbers on the ball without setting the world alight.
I think we should also consider that we have the 5th highest amount of the ball in the league, lower than most teams who would be 2nd in a top division - although we still have more of the ball than Leicester.
So pretty good numbers on the ball when we dont have as much of the ball as a Barcelona, or City or someone like that must be a positive and if he played in a team that dominated the ball its likely that those stats would rise too. So maybe then he would be towards 80+ percentile in more of the on the ball stats and stand out more.
However if he played in a team with more of the ball, if anything his ball winning might go down. Its already very low so maybe it would stay the same. I think in a top team who dominate the ball he still wouldnt be first choice because of the weak areas in his defending and the importance of being aggressive and winning the ball to continue to dominate teams. But he'd be a good backup for games where teams dont have much of a threat on the counter and he pretty much just gets to pass the ball around all game and bring the ball out of defence. There will be games like that over the course of a season and there will be many where that isnt the case at all.
As many others already have written, Lindelof is smart defender. He does not rely on chasing forwards, tackles or throwing himself in to blocks. Therefore, the amount of tackles, blocks, aerials and clearances do not describe his defensive contribution.
You say his defensive work vs Granada was 4 clearances, 1 aerial and 1 interception. Anybody who watched the match saw that his defensive contribution was much more than that.
He doesnt do any of that because Maguire and AWB are doing it for him, not because he's a "smart defender" - unless by smart you mean getting other people to do things for you.
If you don't need to do any of that stuff Maguire and AWB wouldnt be doing so much of it in comparison. Someone has to do the work, Lindelof is lucky he has players around him who do
Here is a starting CB for Barcelona, Oscar Mingueza
So even starting for Barcelona you have a CB who is very high on pressures, tackles and good at interceptions
And they have 65.3% of the ball on average per game compared to our 56.9%
He has started the last 8 Barcelona matches although the first one was filling in at right back, the rest CB in a two or three
How about De Jong, a midfielder who wants to be on the ball that is filling in at CB for Barcelona?
Even he is more aggressive towards winning the ball than Lindelof, while Lindelof is better in the air
So even starting for Barcelona you have a CB who is very high on pressures, tackles and good at interceptions
And they have 65.3% of the ball on average per game compared to our 56.9%
He has started the last 8 Barcelona matches although the first one was filling in at right back, the rest CB in a two or three
How about De Jong, a midfielder who wants to be on the ball that is filling in at CB for Barcelona?
Even he is more aggressive towards winning the ball than Lindelof, while Lindelof is better in the air
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If you want to see a smart bit of defending look no further than Milan where he is backing off holding the Milan attacker from making an easy decision which allows others time to get back and then when the ball is played he gets across and slides in to take the ball off the attacker. He nullified a dangerous situation with smart defending.
The backing off the attacker was an important part in the defending but there will be no stat for that contribution. Which is why stats only ever tell half a story.
People don’t think he was good against Granada? Pass aside he was the best defender and was covering countless times for Maguire and Bissaka.
The backing off the attacker was an important part in the defending but there will be no stat for that contribution. Which is why stats only ever tell half a story.
People don’t think he was good against Granada? Pass aside he was the best defender and was covering countless times for Maguire and Bissaka.
There are anecdotes of Smalling playing long passes to set up goal scoring chances and John O'Shea nutmegging Figo. An anecdote doesn't mean much.
And what you described is normal defending that all these other defenders do on top of being more aggressive at winning and competing for the ball. There are times they steal the ball and others that they will hold up an attacker patiently. The difference is they do both when the situations suits it.
He was fine against Granada just didnt have much to do and on the ball a great pass to set up the goal
You really don't understand Lindelof as a player.Here is a starting CB for Barcelona, Oscar Mingueza
So even starting for Barcelona you have a CB who is very high on pressures, tackles and good at interceptions
And they have 65.3% of the ball on average per game compared to our 56.9%
He has started the last 8 Barcelona matches although the first one was filling in at right back, the rest CB in a two or three
How about De Jong, a midfielder who wants to be on the ball that is filling in at CB for Barcelona?
Even he is more aggressive towards winning the ball than Lindelof, while Lindelof is better in the air
Every game, regardless of how well Lindelof plays, he's in this thread finding a way to criticize. You won't find any balanced conversation from him.
Lindelof, like many other modern CBs, does not rely on last ditch tackles and blocks. Therefore this data is useless as there is no correlation between the data and his defensive contribution. Simple as that. AWB is basically the opposite. He is not pro active and has poor positioning, but makes up for it by good tackles.
In fairness to Ekeke, he did praise him after the Granada game. I noted for I was shocked.
And has since followed if up with a post about how he barely had to defend.
People still reluctantly giving him credit. He's not world class like peak Rio/Vida but he's a very solid defender with good intelligence. Get the feeling a manager like Pep would love him.
Insulting another member
You really are a bit of a clueless idiot aren't you?
This isnt data on last ditch tackles. Its all defensive actions
There are plenty of players with better positioning than Lindelof who use that positioning to intercept and tackle an opponent before they have a chance to react. Positioning is not the opposite of winning the ball, its something that helps with it. The better you read the game and position yourself the more likely you put yourself in a good chance to try and get the ball. The more you anticipate an opponent's intention the more you can ready your body positioning to make the tackle. Thats what AWB does and its through positioning, anticipation and reading what the opponent wants to do. That is the secret to his tackle success rate. He doesn't just dive at every player and hope it works.
And when he gets caught out, who does he rely on to bail him out? Because everyone that watches United know that whilst AWB makes some excellent tackles it's not uncommon that he 1. Gets caught out of position or 2. misjudges his interceptions.
There is no stat if you stay on your feet and track your attacker. That's what Lindelöf does most of the time and is probably the biggest reason he's given the nod in the starting XI every game. Other CBs that goes to ground are more prone to give away sloppy fouls and get booked, sent off. It's not because he's not an active defender, its because he makes the right moves in tracking his attackers. We saw this on display against Granada.
Is he the perfect defender? No far from it, but he has qualities that are very useful to us as a team.
He seems to have a very narrow view of what constitutes a CB. For me, positioning is the most important attribute and it also happens to be his strongest.
It’s not all defensive action; it’s a fraction of it. That’s why this nonsense that Lindelof lets Maguire and AWB do all the defending, based of this data, sounds so unintelligent. (Even more unintelligent since AWB has lower numbers than Lindelof in your “defensive action” stats)
I hated us signing lindelof and have generally hugely criticised his performances since he has been here. Do I think he is a starting eleven centre back and the right partner for Maguire, no. But I have to say the last couple of months he has been consistently decent with a few very good performances....to me personally up until then he has been consistently poor with a few average performances, so credit where it is due
Lindelof wasn't Oles buy and I still feel he'll be replaced in the summer.
We don’t know what happens to Bailly and Tuanzebe, maybe Maguire and Lindelof are the only CBs left with us after this season.
But no matter what, we need another CB. It’s highly unlikely that we will buy one of the caliber that he walks straight in as a starting player. We have among the absolute best defences in the PL atm with 6 clean sheets in the last 10 matches. We have also invested big money in the defence with Maguire and AWB. There are other areas that need to be taken care of, so another CB will be someone of the same level as Lindeof/Maguire or slightly below. Like Telles for Shaw. That what I think at least.
I also feel Ole is very fond of his starting players in the defence. He seems to trust them in every big game.
He's stepped up. We've stepped up generally in defence. We still love to lacerated Harry, Lindelof and especially AWB but we've been largely excellent defensively for much of the season. One great defence central midfield signing and we'd be laughing. We still need a centre half though, no doubt.
I couldn't watch the Granad game with full attention but of what I saw, he had a good game and bailed out Maguire.
I don't think I'll ever warm to Lindelof so I know I am bias but I can appreciate he has his uses and does a job a lot of the time. He has even been a bit more proactive recently, which is good to see. However, for every time he does those 'smart' zonal plays, there are equal times he's far too reactive and passive.
I was critical of his inability to adjust and anticipate the cross for the Brighton Welbeck's goal even though he had all the time in the world because initially I thought he did good to get into position. His downfall was a lack of aggression to actually affect the ball because he switched off at the very last second. He did this again in the Welbeck penalty incident.
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Similar to the Milan and Granada incident, I recognise he does smartly by not over commiting and allowing Shaw to get goal side to delay Maupay's movement. But again, for some reason at the very last second he stutter steps and instead of aggressively trying to close down the angle he does his usual 'I'll take half a second to put my hands behind my back'. It's 'safe' and 'good' zonal positional play in theory but he actually does nothing to affect the situation. If he was commited to defending the near post and allow Shaw to get goal side, then that tame cross should have never come across his body. It's what @Ekeke alludes to.
It's not a catastrophic error in isolation but for a player, who sits, sweeps and doesn't engage often enough for my liking in a team that has the ball most of the time and has the superior talent, if he's going to be playing this way, then he's got to be doing it at a high level with plenty of proactive defensive actions.
See that Wellbeck issue to me you’ve read that completely wrong. He can’t close down the angle. What he is trying to do is be positioned to make the ball in to Welbeck as difficult as possible with good positioning. He achieves that, this is how modern defending is done. If he sprints out to the player which he probably never gets there then it’s easy to knock it past him and it’s an easy ball to Wellbeck.
Admittedly I don’t think he should allow that ball past him and should be able to get a toe or something on it. But it’s still a good bit of defending.
As for the Welbeck goal, that’s all on Bissaka. I don’t agree Lindelof had time to adjust, and even if he could he is travelling backwards he’d never get full spring to reach the ball.
Tottenham 1:3 Man Utd
One poor piece of defending, but also in the second half he made a nice tackle to block a shot after Maguire was apprehensive.
Not great today.
One lapse of focus that unfortunately led to conceding.
Solid regardless.
Solid regardless.
Pretty poor mistake but they even happen to the best. I thought he was very solid other than that.
Ekeke is loving this, only bitterly disappointed that we didn't lose as a result of his defensive error.
His mistake for the goal for sure, but I actually thought he played well aside from that
If we exclude the mistake at the goal he was ok but not great. However not making mistakes are a vital part of a CBs performance and it was very poor to miss that clearance. Bounced back and had an ok second half.
Overall I thought there were many poor things at the goal. Lindelof’s failed clearance. Maguire totally out of position. AWB a bit passive. Rashford not helping out when he must see that Lindelof and AWB are alone with 3 Spurs players.
Overall I thought there were many poor things at the goal. Lindelof’s failed clearance. Maguire totally out of position. AWB a bit passive. Rashford not helping out when he must see that Lindelof and AWB are alone with 3 Spurs players.
Got his feet crossed over for the goal. Not something you can give him too much stick for and he played well otherwise.
Every game he does something like that.
When are people going to stop defending him
When are people going to stop defending him
Yeah, no.
It was always going to be a test for our centre backs. Kane and Son are world-class players.
I actually thought he was more assured than Maguire, who got caught out a few times but Lindelof's mistake lead to the goal.
I actually thought he was more assured than Maguire, who got caught out a few times but Lindelof's mistake lead to the goal.
Damn it, I was starting to warm up to him.
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