Bailly was also muck, don’t rate him. Not sure why we gave him another contract
the others were better than ours but given how they setup it’s hard to judge how they’d be otherwise
2
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Clean sheets
- 17
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 2
- Yellow cards
- 4
- Status
the others were better than ours but given how they setup it’s hard to judge how they’d be otherwise
It sounds like you are just guessing my mind and trying to run away from Lindelof being not good enough. I call Lindelof coward because that was not good enough but that doesn't mean Bailly wasn't coward either, Bailly was coward and not United's standard. However, I have zero reason to talk about Bailly in Lindelof's thread, why should I?
Torres & Albiol were better given the way how Villareal set up in that match. Lindelof should play for Villareal's level instead of Man United's level if you can't even accept Lindelof being called coward.
Here is a recent game where both CBs were decent going forward imo. Of course you guys think he was not the standard etc.
As mentioned they have different types of long balls.
Maguire aims for the flank, see 00:45 for example.
Lindelof’s long balls almost always go in to the box. See 1:02 and 2:15 for examples.
Edit: This is also a match where you could see how well they function together in the defence. That is cooperation, not baby sitting as some think. Watch the video and you can see they help each other out.
As mentioned they have different types of long balls.
Maguire aims for the flank, see 00:45 for example.
Lindelof’s long balls almost always go in to the box. See 1:02 and 2:15 for examples.
Edit: This is also a match where you could see how well they function together in the defence. That is cooperation, not baby sitting as some think. Watch the video and you can see they help each other out.
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it’s not surprising to me that all the noise from the club keeps saying “new CB partner for Maguire”.
I’m glad the club are recognising where we are weak.
Lindelof will make a good rotation player keeping fit when needed.
I’m glad the club are recognising where we are weak.
Lindelof will make a good rotation player keeping fit when needed.
If a player plays long ball and bring the ball forward for small amount of minutes but spend sideways or backwards for lot of minutes, is that good enough?
It's a good question, but I don't think we have a problem with passing the ball backwards or sideways more than other teams. Our problem is that our whole back line is too slow on the ball.
I compiled some stats from this season's CBs in the top teams. The table shows passes backwards, sideways and forward per 90 minutes, in absolute numbers and as % of Total Passes. As you will see our CBs pass little backwards and sideways compared to the other CBs.
Example: Maguire has made 65,8 passes per 90 min. Of them 2.3 were backward passes, which means 3.5% of all his passes goes backwards. etc.
| Total passes | Backward | % of total | Sideways | % of total | forward | % of total | |
| Maguire | 65,8 | 2,3 | 3,5 | 40,1 | 60,9 | 23,5 | 35,7 |
| Lindelof | 65 | 2,4 | 3,7 | 39,9 | 61,4 | 22,8 | 35,1 |
| Stones | 80,4 | 5,3 | 6,6 | 51,1 | 63,6 | 24,2 | 30,1 |
| Dias | 85,9 | 3,5 | 4,1 | 59,6 | 69,4 | 22,8 | 26,5 |
| Zouma | 78,9 | 4,9 | 6,2 | 50,7 | 64,3 | 23,4 | 29,7 |
| Thiago Silva | 90,1 | 3 | 3,3 | 59 | 65,5 | 28,2 | 31,3 |
| Rüdiger | 80,2 | 5,3 | 6,6 | 49,1 | 61,2 | 25,9 | 32,3 |
| Phillips | 69,1 | 4,5 | 6,5 | 39,9 | 57,7 | 24,8 | 35,9 |
| van Dijk | 82,8 | 5,6 | 6,8 | 52,2 | 63,0 | 25 | 30,2 |
Some players are left out since they played multiple positions (Fabinho) and I can't filter that. Van Dijk also only played 5 games so may not be representative.
No I'm not saying that. That goal and what's been said about it has nothing to do with my point.
It's not about looking at the number of backwards first, it's about looking at the number of times player brings the ball forward first because you can still be called coward or not good enough even if you bring the ball forward and backward less. If a player brings the ball forward less then there is a question mark regarding player's contribution in the game.
Bring the ball forward is not just about passing but also carrying the ball forward with dribble or takes on. Thus why I keep showing you this stats below:
Image 1 is about Maguire is being our most ball progression.
Image 2 is to show Maguire is one the top list in the forward carry (everything not just passing) while Lindelof is not.
Image 3, 4, 5 are to show Maguire brings the ball forward much more than Lindelof.
Image 6 is to give you an idea from one sample game what the player does and the image 6 shows similar pattern of play as the 20 seconds clip vs Villareal that I posted.
But lot of critiques and blames were about that goal.
Yes and they were all fair from what I've seen. I explained my point in post #4142 if you missed it.
Ya its crazy. Blind would have been better than him I am sure.
Once he is benched next season, the discussions will finally stop and we can all enjoy our new CB.
I agree, this was a really good game from both CB's and this game I really saw Lindelof's ball playing ability.
However he's been here for 3/4 years now, and there's genuinely a handful of games like this, and a lot more games where he's a liability, where he's shown weakness, where his mistakes have led to chances created or goals scored etc.
So yes, that means he's not the standard. His negatives far outweigh his positives, that's a simple formula.
Your question and kind of a statement was:
So I showed you that neither of our CBs passes the ball much backwards nor sideways compared to the the CBs in the other top teams- It is the opposite, our CBs pass have few passes backwards and sideways.
This was my reply, now you start to talk about something else.
Regarding Progressive passing and carry and Lindelof and Harry have fairly similar stats. The main difference is that Harry has more progressive carries (5.9 vs 3.94), but Lindelof has longer carries (45 yards/carry compared to Harry 32 yards/carry). If we compare data for progressive passing Lindelof has 368 yards per game and Harry 364 yards. Progressive carry Lindelof 176 yards, Harry 192 yards.
Lindelof has been good going forward this season. Maybe theres a few CBs who could have used his 120+ passes against Villarreal to open them up a little bit more, but few. Not many. I dont think it was an area where we can say "he had so much of the ball and didnt create many openings" - because he's a CB. If it was a midfielder that would be the case. But he isnt. He mostly just kept the ball moving and didnt lose it much but he did it quite well.
That said we still struggled to break through against Villarreal. Because our CBs had so much of the ball and you cant expect your CBs to be providing that cutting edge. I think we saw the limitations of how effective ball playing CBs are going to be against a team that sits back and defends as a team. Lindelof pushed forward and essentially took over the DM spots when on the ball - that pushed the likes of Pogba further forward but now he's completely marked and has no space. And do you want Lindelof in that position or do you want Pogba on the ball in that position where he has the ability and quality to open a team up a few times per match?
That said we still struggled to break through against Villarreal. Because our CBs had so much of the ball and you cant expect your CBs to be providing that cutting edge. I think we saw the limitations of how effective ball playing CBs are going to be against a team that sits back and defends as a team. Lindelof pushed forward and essentially took over the DM spots when on the ball - that pushed the likes of Pogba further forward but now he's completely marked and has no space. And do you want Lindelof in that position or do you want Pogba on the ball in that position where he has the ability and quality to open a team up a few times per match?
Well of course I have beef with that. You're imo unfairly labelling I have some ulterior motive without reason. Feel free to lightly comb through my 90 posts (top 7) and other posters in this thread and give me examples where we have criticised Lindelof without a genuine point of contention or 'bending over backwards'; I think you'd be surprised.
Am I guilty of disliking Lindelof? Yes.
Am I guilty of criticising Lindelof? Yes.
Am I guilty of posting 'a lot' here? Yes.
Have I posted disparaging comments like 'he's a coward' etc? Yes, although for every one of those, I'd probably have 10 other posts with some logic or example.
Is there a genuine reason for most of my posts? Absolutely yes.
The bolded bit is probably where we have fundamental differences. I believe in calling a spade a spade. It's not Lindelof's fault he is consistently picked (which I have many times praised his ability to be fit). However, by default due to his many appearances, there's equal opportunities to critique. I gave you the Ole and Lingard analogies, which are perfect examples; the naysayer's are there by volume simply because the people in question are always at the forefront of Utd's game. As I said before, this simply wouldn't exist with someone like James.
Also whilst I agree we shouldn't be too negative, I believe there's need to some context. I like Fred but I will readily criticise his performances when they are justified. My verson of 'being a top red' is that I recognise he gives us a lot of 'quality', so I will give some benefit of the doubt. Same with Rashford, Pogba, AWB, Bruno etc. Proper players with proper ability, who have put in proper dominating performances, who 'deserve' being given some leeway. I find it illogical to be 'comfortable' with defending a player like Lindelof (or perhaps Ole), who doesn't have a high level or have shown regular dominating performances simply because 'hey it's a Utd forum, let's try to be nice'. I will be nice with the players I have previously mentioned; it's not needed with Lindelof after years of evaluation. So yes much of the criticism is 1) compounded by the fact he plays so much and 2) his defenders are so defiant in his lack of mistakes and try to elevate his game like he's some high level player. Again I recognise it's not his fault he is below standard and plays a lot but that doesn't mean the criticisms aren't justified; on the contary I find it slightly offensive to be told 'hey stop being hater, you hater' when it's based on cold hearted observations.
Gonna chime in without having read the full discussion but Lindelof is consistently behind the whole team as the 'last man' so these stats are actually even worse and more damning on Lindelof than they appear. By default, most of Lindelof's passes should be forward as everyone is ahead of him. So Maguire, who is already further ahead and therefore in a riskier situation facing the opposition (i.e closed off passing lanes and opportunity of getting pressed):
Plays more passes, plays more medium and long passes, has more touches, dribbles more, carries more in both distances carried AND progressive distances.
How much more of a statistical break down do you want regarding their quality of the ball other than the eye test, which even many of Lindelof's biggest supporters would agree that Maguire is superior on it.
Once we have established this then we can understand the criticisms of 'Lindelof defers too much, he doesn't pass or play enough progressive passes' is completely justified.
On the whole I get and to an extent with agree 'our centre backs aren't the problem for breaking down teams'. Our fundamental problems (not just in passing but everything in general also) are more on Ole/coaching than any single individual but the criticisms of Lindelof and his own ability is absolutely correct, especially when compared to Maguire, who is a stand out performer in this regard.
It’s the opposite. It’s more difficult to get progressive passes or or progressive carry as last man. Progressive passes and progressive carries stats exclude passes and carries from the defensive 40% of the pitch.
Don’t know where you get your data from but it is either wrong or you read it wrongly.
Let’s one time for all compare the stats. The biggest difference is that Maguire has more long balls, but Lindelof’s long balls create more goal scoring opportunities.
Passing data
Number of passes:
Almost identical
Lindelof
62.7 passes/90
91.1% Passing accuracy
57.1 Succesful passes/90
Maguire
63.2 passes/90
89% passing accuracy
56.2 succesful passes /90
Succesful Long balls per 90
Lindelof 2.2
Maguire 4.5
Progressive play
Progressive passing distance/90
Lindelof 368.3 yards
Mag 364.4 yards
Progressive passes/90
Lindelof 3.21
Maguire 3.07
Progressive carry distance/90
Lindelof 175.6 yards
Maguire 191.7 yards
Progressive carries/90
Lindelof 3.9
Maguire 5.9
I wouldn’t say that the stats indicate that one of the CBs is better or worse than the other when it comes to ball handing, progressive play etc. Maguire has more long balls and more progressive carries (but shorter), but Lindeof create more goal scoring chances from his long balls and carries the ball almost the same distance. Overall their stats are very similar.
The data come from whoscored and fbref. Their data are not always the same as their definitions are not exactly the same all the time, but the differences don’t really change anything important.
@A-man I notice your defence of the player is always founded in his passing or progressive player, very little to do with what he’s actually paid for, defending. It’s on defending that he’s quite clearly a weak link.
couldn’t give a Plopp bar about his passing, it’s irrelevant to his defending
couldn’t give a Plopp bar about his passing, it’s irrelevant to his defending
Not reallyI was replying to the posts regarding passing progressive play. Go back and read.
Defending is of course important even though it is not enough for defenders in dominant teams.
If you want to continue the data track you can find the data I posted before about Lindelof-Maguire. They have played 26 matches as CB pair.
10 PL games with clean sheet
10 PL games with 1 goal conceded
4 PL games with 2 goals conceded (we won all of them)
2 PL games with 3 goals conceded
If you look at the league, which games would you say we lost points because of him?
I said I was more comfortable with United fans defending United players than I am of United fans constantly looking for opportunities to shit on them, if you find that illogical then I don't know what to tell you.
It's also pretty telling that when I said that there's a few people in here who come across as haters you knew you were one of the guys I was talking about even though I never quoted you or mentioned your name. If you're so confident that you don't fit the discription then you shouldn't feel the need to defend yourself in the first place.
Anyway.. the great thing about this forum is that you don't have to listen to a word I say and you can post whatever you like, we don't have to agree whether your posts are this or that, we can just agree to disagree and move on which I really, really insist we do.
When there is a poster who overhypes the player so much with stuffs that suit his narrative then there will be a poster who comes in to stop that with some sense. That’s normal. For instance, you don’t see the same thing happened in Bailly‘s thread because everyone seems to be on the same page about him being not good enough.
What about you read the question again and tell me which one was mentioned first in that question, player brings the ball forward first or player plays the backwards and sideways first?
Yards/carry doesn’t reflect to how often he does it in a game which you are supposed to reply to my question that referring to how often player does it.
The stats don’t lie mate. Maguire excels more than Lindelof in what he offers to the team in term of brings the ball forward.
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All you need to know is arguably our best ever centre back thinks a new CB should be our #1 priority (from 2.50 or so onwards).
This thread is about Lindelof, could you stop discuss me and how many posts I have? Main reason I have so many posts is because I politely answer all questions from you and some other posters aka haters. I will from now on stop replying to your messages as it really is a waste of time if you anyway dislike it so much.When there is a poster who overhypes the player so much with stuffs that suit his narrative then there will be a poster who comes in to stop that with some sense. That’s normal. For instance, you don’t see the same thing happened in Bailly‘s thread because everyone seems to be on the same page about him being not good enough.
What I get from that is perhaps our CBs need to be less aggressive passing forward?
Why the post count of one poster matters is truly beyond me but whatever. I just disagree that some of things posted in here classifies as "some sense" that's all.
It's kinda funny that I call out @golden_blunder to say that he and a few others are hating, and then the guys I didn't mention start defending themselves by whatabouting @A-man.
At least golden owned up to it so cred to him for that.
I think one major difference is also how City and, to some extent also Chelsea, use their goal keepers as active part of their passing game. Our defenders only pass the goal keeper if they are really pressed and then expect the goal keeper to clear the ball. Other teams use the goal keeper in situations where they pass it back to him and lose pressure as result, but they will keep possession. Could see Chelsea do this in the CL final for example.
Lindelof struggles with zonal marking, which time after time leads to goals conceded on set pieces. Switch to man marking and Lindelof will develop into a better defender, at least on set pieces.
If there is a poster who continuously mentioned absurd stuffs like Lindelof is not the problem defensively and offers more than Maguire on the ball then it's only fair to expect poster like golden_blunder to comes in and says the opposite since the positive things were mentioned was excessive. That's the reason why I posted the screen shot.
I was defending the posters you called out.
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Why calling Lindelof not good enough is called haters?
May be before posting, you need to realise that those posters are not haters, they have valid opinion with clear stats and evidences to call Lindelof not good enough, thus why he was criticised by posters, pundits, and fans and also why we are still looking for to invest massive for new centre back to play in starting XI.
The bolded bit is your chosen narrative, where I believe you are wrong and I'm disagreeing on. Like I said, point and call out where you see things are being opportunistic. Otherwise, I could call you out with being a Top Red. It goes both ways.
It's telling because I'm one of the many, who consistently call out the bs on Lindelof 'doing well' and as @UNITED ACADEMY has pointed out, my issue is the simplistic labelling of 'haters'. I can understand it's tiresome to read but it's a lazy generalisation, when I have pointed out it's because 1) said player is actually below par (which we both agree on) and 2) he plays alot, therefore by default there's going to be many talking points.
Again I will refer you to the Ole threads. Despite us winning games, there's always been plenty of reason to criticise, which are completely justified (just like this thread) and guess what? The Ole-in or people, who don't want to see a wall of critiques will chime in with 'y'all are haters, get behind the manager'. Many on those threads are calling that behaviour as toxic and no I'm not insinuating you are as well. However, your original 'hater' comments are a bit misguided; it belongs more in the Pogba thread. Anyways yes, let's agree to disagree. If you're defending Bruno (or even more borderline players like AWB, Fred and perhaps even McT) on his 'haters', I'll back you till the hilt and would wholeheartedly agree but for Lindelof? It's 'illogical' to me because it's a waste of time to be a 'top red' for such an average player. It's the end of the season, so I'll probably leave this thread for a while. Hopefully we'll get someone in the summer
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Nemanja Vidic is our greatest CB, at least among those who played for Sir Alex Ferguson.
Well done today, Victor
Had EL final flashbacks with that Moreno header at the end
Magnificent tonight
I dont think his performance was anything special. They parked the bus, and his partner cleared more. At United, he will get exposed as he cant sit at the back of the bus.
Same like Torres for Villarreal against us. Today in a more progressive team, he looks average (at defending).
Same like Torres for Villarreal against us. Today in a more progressive team, he looks average (at defending).
He's an excellent defender that isn't an ideal partner for Maguire. I think that's pretty much all there is to it? He might not be the most physically imposing defender but I think you can win a title with Lindelof as one of your two main centre backs. I'd still prioritise a CDM, but I can understand wanting to find a better fit for Maguire.
fecking hell
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