Victor Gyökeres

I genuinely think it is difficult for us top assess without seeing what the manager sees on the training pitch. On the one hand we can look at the goal tally from Hojlund and say that it has been found wanting, but on the other hand you look at the data and it says he is doing a lot of the right things, we just aren't getting him the service. At his age, it is very hard to be sure of how a player will develop and if they will reach the required level. I think it is not contentious to say that we need another striker to compete with him and provide rotation options, the question is whether we need to spend big on a player already in their prime. Especially when other positions need to be addressed.

One of the biggest issues is the wide positions. When we play Amad at RWB it dramatically changes our ability to progress the ball up the pitch. Amad comes deep, can receive it under pressure, create space for himself, and also carry it forward at speed. This makes a huge difference to the entire team. When Dalot and Maz play there, they end up just recycling it backwards, which makes us very easy to defend against. The problem with playing Amad wide is that you lose his threat closer to the box. But then of course if you do play him furhter forward, the ball struggles to reach him because we have so much trouble progressing play from the back. Dorgu will help from an attacking perspective, in that when he have the ball higher up the pitch, his pace and power give us a genuine threat from wide areas. Where he won't help is trying to progress it from deep because he doesn't have the close control and technical ability that Amad does to receive it under pressure deep, and create space for himself. If anything Dorgu has a rather loose first touch.

This is why it makes so much sense that our first and priority signing be Quenda. It's a lot to put on a young lad, but he gives us what Amad gives us out wide, without sacrificing Amad further up the field. With Yoro, Mainoo, Quenda and Amad on that side of the field, I would be extremely excited about how that would develop for us over the next 2-3 seasons. So much game intelligence and technical ability in that quartet, and all young. The other side looks much, much worse with potentially Martinez, Ugarte, Dalot, and Bruno/Garnacho. Martinez isn't physical enough to hold down that spot, and with his injury we will need a proper LCB to play there. Ugarte is fine, fantastic in fact. Dalot isn't a LWB, not even close, if we play Dorgu on the left, that would work well I believe, but Amorim seems intent on the inverted option, so I am not sure what he is going to do there. The left 10 is a bit of a conundrum.....I like Bruno closer to goal, and cutting in on his right gives you the benefit of his inverted crossing and shooting, but he lacks pace to play as one of the front three. He can potentially play the Mainoo role in midfield and we go with Garnacho there, and while I consider Garnacho to be our second most dangerous player, he is also very, very careless with the ball. He remains very raw.

Looking at it as two groups of four, the four on the right and the four on the left, with a CB and CF anchor at each end, it becomes pretty clear to me where the problems will lie moving forwards, and that is on the left hand side. If Yoro is the RCB, and De Ligt plays as the central of the three, we desperately need someone for the left. Perhaps Inacio. Dorgu might be the one to play LWB, but if he is out, then what? Back to Dalot? Which is like not having a player there. Don't get me wrong, Dalot is a very good player, at right back. But not as left wing back / wing. So getting in a fast, technical right footed LWB would seem like a top priority to change the complexion of the team. Assuming we send out Sancho, Rashford, and Antony permanently, we will also need at least two forwards, which will be expensive. For that left sided 10 role, the ideal player would be Wirtz, which we know won't happen, but it's a player of that ilk that we need. If we can address those issues, in that way (along with more depth for midfield - such as Ederson at Atalanta), then we will have a squad to compete and I don't think we will need a big money replacement for Hojlund.
 
Delap's alot better than Hojlund, lets be honest.
Is he? We can’t do with just better. Or we could pick any ST in the league. Delap won’t get us 15+ goals a season. We need an Isak type player… Gyokeres will bang them in for us.
 
Rubbish data in = rubbish conclusions.

Hate this SPINEOS rubbish, after the end of the window they said we going big on striker. Now we getting stories like this. Pathetic!

Historically, successful United teams always bought top class strikers regardless of age. 27 is peak age we would get min 5 years out of him as long he stays fit.
Same story every time, now that we're a week passed the window the real truth comes out...

 
The midfield isn't that big of an issue. By a very large distance the striker is the biggest issue, and the extent of how bad it is is the reason other parts of the team start failing. Your team has 0 chance of building confidence if you have nobody to score your goals reliably. Results won't come and good work that you do won't be noticed. Opposition defenders can push up comfortably knowing nobody is scaring them from our attack, and our midfield has no options to pass it into (or when they do, the attackers just lose it).

Honestly ignoring the striker position is madness, it is so far and away the weakest position we have and it's negatively impacting everything else. No manager has a chance at survival here without getting a top half PL level CF (that also fits his system). Hojlund isn't PL level, and Zirkzee isn't suited to what the manager wants and isn't a goalscorer anyway. Nobody in our team is a goalscorer. So even if we have a good 60 minutes of a game, we might control possession, but it's unlikely we'll score so the opposition will get more confidence and eventually come out. Our possession in games is good. We don't leak a crazy amount of chances anymore like we did in early 2024, though of course the defensive side can improve. We are just horrible in the final 3rd and that is down to personnel. Young and promising but inconsistent 10's combined with garbage CF options. Not a single other position would have anywhere close to as big of an impact on us as if we just sorted out the CF.
Will prefix this by saying I sort of agree and it's hard to be against a decent top half level CF and not Gyokeres.

Fundamentally, I don't believe most of the team's attacking threat happens because they have a good striker and strikers are generally a very minimal part of the process of taking the ball from your goal keeper to the opposition penalty box. So many teams have found so many solutions to score goals without a proper striker that surely one must exist for us. City went a whole season with Foden / De Bruyne as a front two. Liverpool still don't play with a #9 and manage just fine with Gakpo / Diaz / Jota. Same with Arsenal and Havertz. I think Arsenal or City or Pool would pin most teams into their half and generate good threat regardless of whether the CF is Havertz or Hojlund.

For a data view, look at any number of metrics - penalty box entries or total xT or the number of times we loose possession in dangerous areas or our build up pass completion

https://markstats.club/teams-eng-24-25/ is a good source

LOS (dangerous possession lost)
BUILD (build up pass completition %)
xT
xG

Pay particular attention to the graphs at the bottom (press resistance, possession and territory). Until we're in the same cluster as City, Pool and Arsenal there, I don't think we should try to sign a WC striker.

Generally all of the metrics above tell the story of a team generally being poor at everything - bad at build up, bad at creating any amount of threat, bad at creating goal scoring opportunities and so forth. If there's an immediate fix for this, for me it's a playmaking midfielder to partner with Ugarte. We're trying that with Bruno playing a deeper role but really it's a stop-gap and he has his limitations in that role. With Martinez and his passing ability from the back gone I think it'll be even more obvious that ball progression is a problem.

Once in a bluemoon, when the line breaking pass is made, we need someone to receive it and do something useful with it. Right now all our attackers are mostly garbage at it. Garnacho just straight up does nothing. Amad mostly plays it safe - he doesn't have that explosive running ability. Mainoo, Hojlund, Zirkzee, the less said the better. You need atleast one guy to receive a pass and scare defences into backing off.

re: your points I agree with -

yes, the two #10s are young and inconsistent, that's why I think we should add to them.
yes, opposition defenders aren't scared of Hojlund or Zirkzee but if we had genuinely scary attacking mids and wing backs I think that's fine. All you need the CF to do in the first phase of the build up is to offer some kind of hold up play (either running in behind / contest on an aerial duel / control the ball and lay it off). I think Zirkzee is mostly fine here.

My ideal summer would be something like <CM Playmaker> and Cunha at a very minimum. If we could do a Delap type signing on top I think it'll be fine.
 
I feel like we are edging towards buying really young players and hoping they come good for some reason. You all know the reason.

INEOS are transitioning us into a selling club for the future.
 
I feel like we are edging towards buying really young players and hoping they come good for some reason. You all know the reason.

INEOS are transitioning us into a selling club for the future.
Exactly that.

Or … we’re due to have a negative cash flow this season of well over £100m due to a decade plus of mismanagement, a billion “lost” in debt servicing and dividends, sh!te transfer fees and even worse contract/wage deals which together, are crippling us despite the ton of revenue we generate.
 
I don't really buy what Whitwell says. He seems to just go in the direction of the wind and reports soundbites rather than construct his own understanding of the situation
 
I feel like we are edging towards buying really young players and hoping they come good for some reason. You all know the reason.

INEOS are transitioning us into a selling club for the future.
Most clubs operate this way now.
 
If we don’t buy him it will be because we don’t have the money to do it whilst other positions also need solving. Not this nonsense about not being in CL
 
If we don’t buy him it will be because we don’t have the money to do it whilst other positions also need solving. Not this nonsense about not being in CL
Yes!
It's an honor for him and quite a good portion of players to join us no matter what state we're in. I find the lack of faith disturbing.
 
Will prefix this by saying I sort of agree and it's hard to be against a decent top half level CF and not Gyokeres.

Fundamentally, I don't believe most of the team's attacking threat happens because they have a good striker and strikers are generally a very minimal part of the process of taking the ball from your goal keeper to the opposition penalty box. So many teams have found so many solutions to score goals without a proper striker that surely one must exist for us. City went a whole season with Foden / De Bruyne as a front two. Liverpool still don't play with a #9 and manage just fine with Gakpo / Diaz / Jota. Same with Arsenal and Havertz. I think Arsenal or City or Pool would pin most teams into their half and generate good threat regardless of whether the CF is Havertz or Hojlund.

For a data view, look at any number of metrics - penalty box entries or total xT or the number of times we loose possession in dangerous areas or our build up pass completion

https://markstats.club/teams-eng-24-25/ is a good source

LOS (dangerous possession lost)
BUILD (build up pass completition %)
xT
xG

Pay particular attention to the graphs at the bottom (press resistance, possession and territory). Until we're in the same cluster as City, Pool and Arsenal there, I don't think we should try to sign a WC striker.

Generally all of the metrics above tell the story of a team generally being poor at everything - bad at build up, bad at creating any amount of threat, bad at creating goal scoring opportunities and so forth. If there's an immediate fix for this, for me it's a playmaking midfielder to partner with Ugarte. We're trying that with Bruno playing a deeper role but really it's a stop-gap and he has his limitations in that role. With Martinez and his passing ability from the back gone I think it'll be even more obvious that ball progression is a problem.

Once in a bluemoon, when the line breaking pass is made, we need someone to receive it and do something useful with it. Right now all our attackers are mostly garbage at it. Garnacho just straight up does nothing. Amad mostly plays it safe - he doesn't have that explosive running ability. Mainoo, Hojlund, Zirkzee, the less said the better. You need atleast one guy to receive a pass and scare defences into backing off.

re: your points I agree with -

yes, the two #10s are young and inconsistent, that's why I think we should add to them.
yes, opposition defenders aren't scared of Hojlund or Zirkzee but if we had genuinely scary attacking mids and wing backs I think that's fine. All you need the CF to do in the first phase of the build up is to offer some kind of hold up play (either running in behind / contest on an aerial duel / control the ball and lay it off). I think Zirkzee is mostly fine here.

My ideal summer would be something like <CM Playmaker> and Cunha at a very minimum. If we could do a Delap type signing on top I think it'll be fine.
For us it's a CF, but that main goalscorer and threat in behind is always there for somebody. Of course you can incrementally improve every area. But the biggest impact is always addressing your weakest area. Under Amorim, he wants his CF to lead the line, be the threat in behind and most chances should funnel to him. At Liverpool, this is handled by Salah. Yes they have a lot of other decent attackers but Salah is their main scorer role. That's why they could function so long without a proper CF. Arsenal have solid goal output throughout and Pep has always managed to organize his teams to do this. You can't just "find a solution to score" if you have nobody in your team who is a goalscorer. Our only good seasons the past 5 years have come when Rashford had an on year, because he was the only goalscorer at the club. So whatever we tried did end up having a focal point in the attack. Deep possession and build up possession is completely pointless if you don't have a target in attack to get through. Garnacho is currently the one who can do that, and he's an inconsistent 20 year old. Nobody else gets enough shots off or even knows to make those runs. So it's no surprise that our attack completely struggles.

I'm not saying we need a world class striker. I'm saying we need a top half level PL striker. Teams who will be relegated have better strikers than we do. Ours literally would only start for 1 or 2 other side's in the league, and that's just unacceptable.

Someone like Cunha would be a good signing, but at the same time .. it wouldn't change much. He can't carry an attack to be a main scoring threat. He's not that type of player. He can play for a big side, but he would look far better for Arsenal while he wouldn't move the needle much at United unless we actually got a CF.

It doesn't have to be Gyokeres, it doesn't have to be Isak. Liam Delap would be a massive improvement. Danny Welbeck would be a big improvement even. Saw we're linked to Vardy, who is 38. He would be an improvement on Hojlund. I really can't overstate just how bad our CF options are relative to the league we are in and our managers needs.
 
If we don’t buy him it will be because we don’t have the money to do it whilst other positions also need solving. Not this nonsense about not being in CL
I would be amazed if an experienced striker isn't number 1 or 2 on Amorim's list. It is our weakest position.
 
I suspect we won’t be able to spend the lot on one striker though, we have multiple roles needing looking at.
Yep - too many holes to plug. Not sure Sporting will gladly part with 2x of their best players anyway. Still.. hopefully transfers out, loans out will help, reducing wage bill, plus annual revenue after restraint in the January window will help.
 
Can see him ending up at Arsenal, as their main target will be a striker. We need a striker but also need more than that.
 
If we don’t buy him it will be because we don’t have the money to do it whilst other positions also need solving. Not this nonsense about not being in CL
Not sure it's nonsense. Gyokeres is in the age bracket that will absolutely be looking at what he can win and achieve in the next few years, and to mitigate that we'd probably have to offer significantly more money than his other options (unless he is very emotionally attached to Amorim).

I would say players who are in that 27-30 age bracket are the most difficult for us to sign if they also have other top clubs offering them similar importance and money. Players who are younger than that can more easily look at the long term, and older players will generally have less top clubs offering them big money so we'd have less competition.
 
I don't think we need him to be honest. Our problem is not creating enough chances as a team for our strikers. If we create a bucket load of chances, our strikers won't be under too much pressure to score from the only one or two chances they know they will get in a game. This is on Amorim and the players to sort out.
 
I don't think we need him to be honest. Our problem is not creating enough chances as a team for our strikers. If we create a bucket load of chances, our strikers won't be under too much pressure to score from the only one or two chances they know they will get in a game. This is on Amorim and the players to sort out.
Hojlund only manages one or two shots a game playing for Denmark too, he had just 6 shots in 4 games at Euro 2024.

He also hasn't scored in his last 12 games for them.

The problem is him.
 
Hojlund only manages one or two shots a game playing for Denmark too, he had just 6 shots in 4 games at Euro 2024.

He also hasn't scored in his last 12 games for them.

The problem is him.
Denmark is a poor chance creating team too and they were terrible at the Euros. They didn't win a single game.
 
I think sporting will be happy with Hojlund + cash in order to reduce the price.
Will still be a hefty money though.
 
We gotta prioritize CF. If Gyokeres is too expensive we gotta look elsewhere.
 
some of you lot are mad. the club is broke, ineos is creaking under a massive debt pile, Sir Jim wants a clear out of playing and non-playing staff and here you talking about spending 70mill on a player. Never going to happen.
 
some of you lot are mad. the club is broke, ineos is creaking under a massive debt pile, Sir Jim wants a clear out of playing and non-playing staff and here you talking about spending 70mill on a player. Never going to happen.
We can sign a Gyokeres or an Osimhen. Most likely Quenda too. Anything after that will be sell to buy.
 
some of you lot are mad. the club is broke, ineos is creaking under a massive debt pile, Sir Jim wants a clear out of playing and non-playing staff and here you talking about spending 70mill on a player. Never going to happen.
If ineos is going down we take them down with us
 
Hojlund only manages one or two shots a game playing for Denmark too, he had just 6 shots in 4 games at Euro 2024.

He also hasn't scored in his last 12 games for them.

The problem is him.

I saw some stats posted that Hojlund was around 2.5 shots per game at Atalanta, this reduced to around 1.8 first season, then as the team and himself has got worse he's on 0.8 now.

He's not a target man so we as a team have to create cutbacks, and other low balls into his path while facing the goal. It's up to the manager and players to sort this out as we can't just write off 10s of millions. Having Dorgu LWB and Dalot RWB should help or even Zirkzee right 10 with Hojlund central and instruct the players and develop passing combinations to draw teams out.
 
With the players who are leaving on a free and Sancho's exit, we can sign a striker and Quenda. Any other signings will be conditional on outs (Rashford, Casemiro, Antony, Malacia etc).

Do you have the workings for that one? In terms of outs, we're currently looking at Eriksen, Lindelof & Evans (no fees, combined £17.4m pa in saved salary) + Sancho (£25m fee + £7.8m pa salary) = £25m in fees and £25.2m cut from future salary costs. That obviously helps United's financial position and might be enought to fund a deal for Quenda (£50m ish fee and, presumably, low wages) but anything beyond that would surely require further sales.

Rashford, Antony, Casemiro and Malacia will presumably all be up for sale, but a peak age #9 could set us back £70m+ (and a significant salary package) and that looks unfeasible for a single player given the likely sales and the amount of work also needed in midfield/defence. Unless you are suggesting selling all the players above and ONLY signing Quenda and a striker this summer?
 
We can sign a Gyokeres or an Osimhen. Most likely Quenda too. Anything after that will be sell to buy.
Its not just PSR its also having the actual cash / credit facility to spend.
there's no way the club are spending 100-150million quid on players straight off the bat unless we sell off the family silver first (Mainoo, Garnacho).
 
Do you have the workings for that one? In terms of outs, we're currently looking at Eriksen, Lindelof & Evans (no fees, combined £17.4m pa in saved salary) + Sancho (£25m fee + £7.8m pa salary) = £25m in fees and £25.2m cut from future salary costs. That obviously helps United's financial position and might be enought to fund a deal for Quenda (£50m ish fee and, presumably, low wages) but anything beyond that would surely require further sales.

Rashford, Antony, Casemiro and Malacia will presumably all be up for sale, but a peak age #9 could set us back £70m+ (and a significant salary package) and that looks unfeasible for a single player given the likely sales and the amount of work also needed in midfield/defence. Unless you are suggesting selling all the players above and ONLY signing Quenda and a striker this summer?
The departures of Heaton, Evans, Eriksen and Lindelof = approx £27.5m/year. I believe that's £60m in PSR space total. (£12m per annum. £300k per week). This essentially secures you your striker. The amortisation for Sancho is £14m approx. This alone will get you Quenda.

We then have Rashford potentially off the books for a £40m profit. That's another £100m in transfers essentially, plus wages, maybe even with money left over. After that is anything we can muster for Casemiro (again, huge wages), Antony, Malacia etc.
 
Its not just PSR its also having the actual cash / credit facility to spend.
there's no way the club are spending 100-150million quid on players straight off the bat unless we sell off the family silver first (Mainoo, Garnacho).
I guess we will see. Nothing before July 1st though obviously.
 
Same story every time, now that we're a week passed the window the real truth comes out...


It’s so predictable: “United prefer to wait until the summer to do their transfer business and focus on bringing in a top striker…”

1 week later…

“Funds might not be available for the summer…”
 
The departures of Heaton, Evans, Eriksen and Lindelof = approx £27.5m/year. I believe that's £60m in PSR space total. (£12m per annum. £300k per week). This essentially secures you your striker. The amortisation for Sancho is £14m approx. This alone will get you Quenda.

We then have Rashford potentially off the books for a £40m profit. That's another £100m in transfers essentially, plus wages, maybe even with money left over. After that is anything we can muster for Casemiro (again, huge wages), Antony, Malacia etc.
You do realise that this is 'paper money' - it's what we could theoretically spend and not break PSR rules, we need some actual money and that's currently dependent on Rashford having a blinder at Villa for the most part
 
It’s so predictable: “United prefer to wait until the summer to do their transfer business and focus on bringing in a top striker…”

1 week later…

“Funds might not be available for the summer…”
That's typical GlazEOS, I also recall the wishy washy Quenda news at the end the Jan window.
 
Gyokeres would be mental to come here, even if we could afford him. We don't have the first xi never mind a squad suited for amorim football. Gyokeres scored a lot of cutbacks and taps in for sporting under amorim, because the system worked and got the best out of him.

He would struggle at Utd until we had the right players in for amorim system to work.