United Risking a Vicious Cycle?

Adebesi

Full Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
19,155
Location
Sanctity, like a cat, abhors filth.
Are we heading towards a situation where we dont qualify for the CL, therefore cant bring in a higher calibre of player, therefore may find it difficult to get back into the CL? Is this a strong argument for throwing the kitchen sink at getting reinforcements in January?

Or do you think Manchester United still has enough kudos to attract top quality players even without CL football? Im sure many Liverpool fans felt the same way. Dont want to be a panicmonger but this is the stuff secular downturns are made of.

Im not sure how this ties in with the debate about what to do with the manager. Sacking Moyes is no guarantee of a reversal of fortunes - quite the contrary IMO. Just as sticking with Moyes is no guarantee of long term success: just because SAF came good after a number of years and then went on to achieve great success, doesnt mean Moyes will.

I guess it comes down to whether people are naturally optimistic or pessimistic people. But inasmuch as it is possible to be objective about this, should we be worried about the omens? And if not, where are people finding their optimism from at the moment?
 
That's why so many are concerned. We obviously need to turn it around and soon, but on the other hand the players we have are top 4 players, we shouldn't be outside the top 4 for long, if at all. My main concern would be players leaving.
 
There is no difference in attracting players as long as we show that we have a tactic and style that players would like to see themselves play in. It will however cost a fortune more to attract the needed players.
 
Basically, if we throw enough money at players, they'll come here. We just rarely do that and that is why we can't attract real quality.
 
We rarely go for the highest calibre of player anyway to be honest, despite being in the CL forever.
 
Players will come if we offer top dollar, that's the priority for the modern footballer in most cases. Whether we offer top dollar remains to be seen.
 
2 Man Midfield said:
That's why so many are concerned. We obviously need to turn it around and soon, but on the other hand the players we have are top 4 players, we shouldn't be outside the top 4 for long, if at all. My main concern would be players leaving.
Click to expand...

Some of the players we have are top 4 players but a lot of them are also potential top 4 players, young players with a great deal of promise, but not necessarily top 4 players in their own right just yet. Players like Jones, Smalling etc. Its a tough one as some other young players - Rafael for example and maybe Chicharito - have already reached that Top 4 standard, despite being young. But still, these young players are supposed to be augmented with more established stars that will help ensure they fulfill their potential.

If people stay - particularly Rooney - I reckon we should be alright as these young players will keep improving and we do have quality in the squad. If Rooney leaves, which I have been convinced he will all season, I must say I am starting to fear the worst. Im just not convinced we'd be able to bring someone of that quality in without CL football.
 
Adebesi said:
Some of the players we have are top 4 players but a lot of them are also potential top 4 players, young players with a great deal of promise, but not necessarily top 4 players in their own right just yet. Players like Jones, Smalling etc. Its a tough one as some other young players - Rafael for example and maybe Chicharito - have already reached that Top 4 standard, despite being young. But still, these young players are supposed to be augmented with more established stars that will help ensure they fulfill their potential.

If people stay - particularly Rooney - I reckon we should be alright as these young players will keep improving and we do have quality in the squad. If Rooney leaves, which I have been convinced he will all season, I must say I am starting to fear the worst. Im just not convinced we'd be able to bring someone of that quality in without CL football.
Click to expand...

Pretty much, which is my point about us losing players.
 
While UCL and a great manager attracts player, the main attraction was, is and will be money. So, if we want top players, we need to offer top dollar.

Things are bad at the moment and if we go outside of top 4, it'll be difficult to return, but with or without Moyes, the squad needs heavy investments. Hopefully top players, not EPL 'proven' midtable players. We have started bad, and while we'll improve in the next few weeks, the big improvement won't come without fixing the midfield once and for all.
 
If could definitely be an issue. Yes money makes things happen, but we could risk losing many of our top players who wouldn't be willing to downgrade at this stage of their careers and take a gamble on a manager who hasn't proven himself at a big club before.
 
So Juve can bounce back from relegation to Champs League but we finish 5th and the sky falls in?
 
1 season minus CL football will have little effect on our ability to pull players specially considering the level we go for. It only becomes an issue if we stay out for seasons at a stretch which i cant see happening unless more sugar daddies come into the league.
 
moses said:
So Juve can bounce back from relegation to Champs League but we finish 5th and the sky falls in?
Click to expand...

Or Dortmund. Or Tottenham. Or the likes of Villareal, Valencia, Bilbao, who jump in and out of the competition.

If we fall outside of the CHampions League, now or in the near/distant future, I hope a comeback is built on a dedicated strategy of bringing through youth, and the reasonable reinforcement with experience, not just throwing money at the problem.
 
We'll win the Champions League and finish 5th and qualify for next year's CL. Scousers will cry a fecking river about how Champions League is not about the champions anymore.
 
We'll have to stop "putting our own valuation" and treat the market as what it is - a market. We'll have to do that whether we are in the CL places or not.

Or we'll just have to learn to live with becoming mediocre and hope that some genius academy scouts deliver us with a fresh batch of talent that actually want to live in Manchester
 
adexkola said:
Or Dortmund. Or Tottenham. Or the likes of Villareal, Valencia, Bilbao, who jump in and out of the competition.

If we fall outside of the CHampions League, now or in the near/distant future, I hope a comeback is built on a dedicated strategy of bringing through youth, and the reasonable reinforcement with experience, not just throwing money at the problem.
Click to expand...

I hope your being sarcastic... I don't want to be classed anywhere near the level of those teams. We need 'quality players' that should be our only objective whether that means spending money or production.
 
Mainoldo said:
I hope your being sarcastic... I don't want to be classed anywhere near the level of those teams. We need 'quality players' that should be our only objective whether that means spending money or production.
Click to expand...


Our spending is in line with 3rd-5th place in the premier league (transfers + wages), so that's where we'll finish. It'll fluctuate based on luck/other teams f*ck ups, but that's where we should be.
 
Obviously there are no guarantees that we will continue to be a CL team or even a top team in the PL, that is just the nature of sports. I worry less about not qualifying for the CL and more about that we do not have similar fiasco's to last summers transfer window that makes the team look amateurish. That is what will hurt our ability to attract talented players in the near term.

If the right players are available we should go after them in January, we need some improvements. The problem of course is that as a general rule the most activity will take place in the summer and that is when more players will be available. Hate to see us panic buy in January and then see the players we really wanted be available in the summer but either not have the cash or the space for them.
 
moses said:
So Juve can bounce back from relegation to Champs League but we finish 5th and the sky falls in?
Click to expand...

Exactly, I look at some clubs, Serie A especially, where the top clubs yo-yo between Champions League and not and it doesn't seem to effect their ability to attract top players.
 
Beachryan said:
Our spending is in line with 3rd-5th place in the premier league (transfers + wages), so that's where we'll finish. It'll fluctuate based on luck/other teams f*ck ups, but that's where we should be.
Click to expand...

This. Money isn't everything but if you spend like the 5th place team you can hardly be surprised when you eventually end up a 5th place team.
 
Mainoldo said:
I hope your being sarcastic... I don't want to be classed anywhere near the level of those teams. We need 'quality players' that should be our only objective whether that means spending money or production.
Click to expand...

Eh? Those clubs have dropped out of European competitions in the past and re entered after a period of transition. My point is, dropping out of the Champions League isn't the vicious circle the OP makes it out to be.
 
adexkola said:
Eh? Those clubs have dropped out of European competitions in the past and re entered after a period of transition. My point is, dropping out of the Champions League isn't the vicious circle the OP makes it out to be.
Click to expand...
Different leagues, different circumstances.

Look at Liverpool since they dropped out in 2010. Or Tottenham's struggles. It's not easy in this league, it's fairly rigid at the top. Hypothetically speaking of course, t's going to be especially difficult if we entrust the man who took us from champions to 7th within 12 months to be the one to take us back into the top 4.
 
Plenty of established players and up and coming players will still want to join us regardless of if it so happens that we do finish 5th. Signing someone from a team playing in the Champions League and especially a first-team member of such a club may prove difficult, depending on what club that may be. Let's see exactly where we are at the very end of this month/early January before panic stations set in.
 
We slate City about splashing the cash, and it seems there are some who believe it's the best strategy to go for if we drop out of Europe. It's hypocritical.
 
Dominos said:
Different leagues, different circumstances.

Look at Liverpool since they dropped out in 2010. Or Tottenham's struggles. It's not easy in this league, it's fairly rigid at the top. Hypothetically speaking of course, t's going to be especially difficult if we entrust the man who took us from champions to 7th within 12 months to be the one to take us back into the top 4.
Click to expand...

Liverpool look poised to re-enter the competition, after making a few moves in the transfer window. Tottenham were in the competition a few seasons ago, and would have featured in it last season if not for Chelsea's heroics in Munich. Having Rinus fecking Michels in place of Moyes will change little if the team doesn't have the right caliber of players.

Hernandez - BFA said:
We slate City about splashing the cash, and it seems there are some who believe it's the best strategy to go for if we drop out of Europe. It's hypocritical.
Click to expand...

But, but, we earned it!
 
Hernandez - BFA said:
We slate City about splashing the cash, and it seems there are some who believe it's the best strategy to go for if we drop out of Europe. It's hypocritical.
Click to expand...

In a sense I suppose it is. But every club needs to overhaul the squad every now and then. And it ain't cheap these days.
 
Adebesi said:
Are we heading towards a situation where we dont qualify for the CL, therefore cant bring in a higher calibre of player, therefore may find it difficult to get back into the CL? Is this a strong argument for throwing the kitchen sink at getting reinforcements in January?
Click to expand...

1 season out of the top 4 won't change much/anything in terms of who Manchester United can attract.

Also, as has been said, we rarely go for ready made stars for whom that sort of thing would be an issue for anyway.
 
adexkola said:
Liverpool look poised to re-enter the competition, after making a few moves in the transfer window. Tottenham were in the competition a few seasons ago, and would have featured in it last season if not for Chelsea's heroics in Munich. Having Rinus fecking Michels in place of Moyes will change little if the team doesn't have the right caliber of players.
Click to expand...
If only these players had won us the league title 6 months ago. Also doubts over his ability to identify the right players it takes to turn us around.
 
jojojo said:
We'll have to stop "putting our own valuation" and treat the market as what it is - a market. We'll have to do that whether we are in the CL places or not.

Or we'll just have to learn to live with becoming mediocre and hope that some genius academy scouts deliver us with a fresh batch of talent that actually want to live in Manchester
Click to expand...

We are too willing to miss out of players because of our principles.
 
Hernandez - BFA said:
We slate City about splashing the cash, and it seems there are some who believe it's the best strategy to go for if we drop out of Europe. It's hypocritical.
Click to expand...

We're a football club, not a Zen Buddhist sect. The idea that there's some set of eternal principles we must uphold, even at the cost of success, is laughable.

The only principle is to win stuff, and then win more stuff....
 
Dominos said:
If only these players had won us the league title 6 months ago. Also doubts over his ability to identify the right players it takes to turn us around.
Click to expand...

So? Our rivals have all improved their teams. We have remained stagnant in the market. The players who bailed us out last season are injured. No one is stepping up. When that happens you fall behind the pack, irrespective of who is managing the team. Not absolving Moyes of blame here, but we did not have a perfect team last season, and all our rivals are doing much better than they were doing last season.
 
adexkola said:
So? Our rivals have all improved their teams. We have remained stagnant in the market. The players who bailed us out last season are injured. No one is stepping up. When that happens you fall behind the pack, irrespective of who is managing the team. Not absolving Moyes of blame here, but we did not have a perfect team last season, and all our rivals are doing much better than they were doing last season.
Click to expand...
Chelsea are set for a near identical points haul at their current rate, City slightly less than last season. Spurs aren't doing great, Liverpool and Arsenal are better, but we should be amongst the pack and close to who we expected to be our main rivals - City and Chelsea, who are not doing any better than last season.

We have last season's team + Fellaini, Zaha and Fabio. A significant portion of the blame has to lie with him for not improving the team to the extent we'd have liked.

Some don't seem to realise the job of a manager is to get the team performing. Why we'd rather convince ourselves he was left with a terrible squad that happened to win the league, or the players don't want to try anymore rather than accepting he may be doing a poor job I've no idea.
 
My worst fears are being realised.

Weeks into the transfer window and it is quite clear we won't be able to sign anyone. It's all over for us. We failed to get into the CL and now we'll never sign a quality player. Thus, we won't get back into the CL.

Next season we'll probably get into the bottom half of the table. The season after we'll be relegated.

It's Leeds all over again.
 
moses said:
So Juve can bounce back from relegation to Champs League but we finish 5th and the sky falls in?
Click to expand...
Juve were up there in the top 3 most prestigious clubs of the 90's. They might be back in the CL but they can't attract genuinely world class names.
 
Lynk said:
Juve were up there in the top 3 most prestigious clubs of the 90's. They might be back in the CL but they can't attract genuinely world class names.
Click to expand...

True but you have to consider the state of Italian football. I think it is at least as much of a reason to why that is the case. A quick look at AC Milan will tell you that the problem goes beyond Juve and the fact that they were out of the CL for a while.

It wasn't that long ago when Serie A teams struck fear into everyone in Europe. Now they are cash-strapped and a good place for older players or young talent to showcase what they can do before moving on.
 
Liverpool are proof that there is a vicious circle.

Its important we recover before the rot sets in.

However I am in favour of building up sensibly and retaining the identity of the club with youth players and continuity, not buying a whole new stack of expensive players.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.