United Risking a Vicious Cycle?

Massive Spanner said:
I call shenanigans. We can't offer CL football so whilst the likes of Di Maria might be available, we just aren't an attractive proposition, simple as that. I don't believe for a second that money is the issue here, look at the amount we've spent in the last few years.
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We clearly need centre backs. De Vrij went to Lazio. Whilst not been outstanding, he would improve us. That's one example.

Vidal is available clearly, but at the right price, albeit a huge price. Real Madrid are doing their best to sell Khedira. Carvalho (not my favourite player) has a buyout clause. All 3 players are attainable in my opinion if we pay enough money. We have to overpay with us not being in the CL.

People don't seem to realise that we aren't going to get back into the CL unless we overpay in the short term.
 
Name Changed said:
We clearly need centre backs. De Vrij went to Lazio. Whilst not been outstanding, he would improve us. That's one example.

Vidal is available clearly, but at the right price, albeit a huge price. Real Madrid are doing their best to sell Khedira. Carvalho (not my favourite player) has a buyout clause. All 3 players are attainable in my opinion if we pay enough money. We have to overpay with us not being in the CL.

People don't seem to realise that we aren't going to get back into the CL unless we overpay in the short term.
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Again, nobody is really naming players that light me up with confidence here. De Vrij isn't particularly great, and I'm sure LvG would know better than anyone.

Vidal is not 'clearly' available, Juve constantly say he's not for sale, and then it's also possible that his knee is fecked and we quite rightly don't want to take the risk. We actually know sweet feck all about Vidal, despite the massive transfer thread of muppetry.

Carvalho? Maybe. Not sure he's any sort of solution though, and I don't think the fee would be an issue if LvG wanted him.

Khedira's a headless chicken at the best of times, looks great on the ball but definitely not what we need alongside Herrera.
 
Name Changed said:
We clearly need centre backs. De Vrij went to Lazio. Whilst not been outstanding, he would improve us. That's one example.

Vidal is available clearly, but at the right price, albeit a huge price. Real Madrid are doing their best to sell Khedira. Carvalho (not my favourite player) has a buyout clause. All 3 players are attainable in my opinion if we pay enough money. We have to overpay with us not being in the CL.

People don't seem to realise that we aren't going to get back into the CL unless we overpay in the short term.
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this, but he clearly isn't listening, he would rather sit and pretend the perfect signing will magically appear at some point rather than see us invest to stay at the top.
 
LoiusVanGaal said:
this, but he clearly isn't listening, he would rather sit and pretend the perfect signing will magically appear at some point rather than see us invest to stay at the top.
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My hole. If he was waiting for the 'perfect' signing he wouldn't have bought Herrera or Rojo.
 
LoiusVanGaal said:
I was talking about you genius.
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Well, you're putting ridiculous words in my mouth. There's a difference between perfect signings and getting the right players in. Do you want a repeat of Fellaini, or Mata? i.e. purchases we probably didn't need but made because we were desperate. Or do you want us to get the right players, which I believe the club have done with the three so far this summer. I don't feel we need the 'perfect' signing at all, we've spent well this summer and I'm sure if LvG sees more targets he feels will be good enough, he'll get them, otherwise he won't, which is fine, better than buying another Fellaini.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Well, you're putting ridiculous words in my mouth. There's a difference between perfect signings and getting the right players in. Do you want a repeat of Fellaini, or Mata? i.e. purchases we probably didn't need but made because we were desperate. Or do you want us to get the right players, which I believe the club have done with the three so far this summer. I don't feel we need the 'perfect' signing at all, we've spent well this summer and I'm sure if LvG sees more targets he feels will be good enough, he'll get them, otherwise he won't, which is fine, better than buying another Fellaini.
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if you think we don't need any more signings then you are having a laugh.
 
LoiusVanGaal said:
if you think we don't need any more signings then you are having a laugh.
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That's clearly not what I said though.

I'd like us to get more players, I just want them to be the right players, not panic buys because of desperation. if we can't get more players, than I don't see the point of forking out another £80m, which you're suggesting we do.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Strootman who broke his leg and would fail a medical, and who Roma just said would cost £100m? No thanks.

Blind is hardly the sort of signing who would reignite us, he's decent, not great.

You've named two players there, neither of whom would be overly good signings this summer.
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Strootman's ACL tear would not mean he'd fail a medical. The medical is carried out to our standards, not some objective third party's. As long as it was healing properly and there were no other concerns, he'd he fine.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Well, you're putting ridiculous words in my mouth. There's a difference between perfect signings and getting the right players in. Do you want a repeat of Fellaini, or Mata? i.e. purchases we probably didn't need but made because we were desperate. Or do you want us to get the right players, which I believe the club have done with the three so far this summer. I don't feel we need the 'perfect' signing at all, we've spent well this summer and I'm sure if LvG sees more targets he feels will be good enough, he'll get them, otherwise he won't, which is fine, better than buying another Fellaini.
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We clearly need another midfielder. It's not rocket science. Everybody who knows anything about football can see it a mile away. Do you really believe there isn't one single midfielder out there who is available who would improve us drastically? Christ.

We will not finish in the CL spots with that squad. We need to invest heavily in the short term or lose out in the big term. The longer we leave it, the harder it will be to get back. Other clubs are improving drastically. We are going backwards.
 
Massive Spanner said:
That's clearly not what I said though.

I'd like us to get more players, I just want them to be the right players, not panic buys because of desperation. if we can't get more players, than I don't see the point of forking out another £80m, which you're suggesting we do.
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:rolleyes:
 
Gopher Brown said:
Strootman's ACL tear would not mean he'd fail a medical. The medical is carried out to our standards, not some objective third party's. As long as it was healing properly and there were no other concerns, he'd he fine.
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Fine, but still injured, and not having played a game in 9/10 months. Why would we take such a risk for such a monstrous fee?
 
LoiusVanGaal said:
:rolleyes:
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if a shitty sarcastic rolleyes is all you can muster in response then I am happy with the outcome of this. Unlucky, son.
Name Changed said:
We clearly need another midfielder. It's not rocket science. Everybody who knows anything about football can see it a mile away. Do you really believe there isn't one single midfielder out there who is available who would improve us drastically? Christ.

We will not finish in the CL spots with that squad. We need to invest heavily in the short term or lose out in the big term. The longer we leave it, the harder it will be to get back. Other clubs are improving drastically. We are going backwards.
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of course we need a midfielder, absolutely. And obviously there are midfielders out there that will improve us, it's just that we're far from an attractive proposition right now and it might be the case that these midfielders simply aren't attainable. Like I said, I don't want us to panic and do a repeat of Fellaini. LvG isn't that stupid.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Fine, but still injured, and not having played a game in 9/10 months. Why would we take such a risk for such a monstrous fee?
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If we wait on Strootman to be fit before we sign a midfielder, we'll be out of the running for 4th place at that stage, just like last season.
 
Massive Spanner said:
I call shenanigans. We can't offer CL football so whilst the likes of Di Maria might be available, we just aren't an attractive proposition, simple as that. I don't believe for a second that money is the issue here, look at the amount we've spent in the last few years.
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It's always about money, city didn't face any problems attracting big stars without CL football, we're one of the biggest clubs in the world, show footballers the money and they'll come.
 
Massive Spanner said:
of course we need a midfielder, absolutely. And obviously there are midfielders out there that will improve us, it's just that we're far from an attractive proposition right now and it might be the case that these midfielders simply aren't attainable. Like I said, I don't want us to panic and do a repeat of Fellaini. LvG isn't that stupid.
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Who says anything about panicking and having a repeat of Fellaini? We are an attractive proposition because we can pay big money. We can still get players, we simply have to overpay. We know that. The club knows that. If we don't get the players in, we will not get back into the CL. There are players available who would drastically improve us.
 
Someone said:
It's always about money, city didn't face any problems attracting big stars without CL football, we're one of the biggest clubs in the world, show footballers the money and they'll come.
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Exactly. United are a massive club, with massive resources. Back then City were just a club with massive resources. They managed to get players.

I cannot understand people being so naive that they think we couldn't.
 
Someone said:
It's always about money, city didn't face any problems attracting big stars without CL football, we're one of the biggest clubs in the world, show footballers the money and they'll come.
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Recent history says otherwise. We've missed out on lots of players in recent years. Even when we had CL football and Sir Alex. Football plays a part but the clubs we're competing with to get players have just as much money as we do.
Name Changed said:
If we wait on Strootman to be fit before we sign a midfielder, we'll be out of the running for 4th place at that stage, just like last season.
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More than likely, yes. Hopefully we won't have to wait for him, though, but time is ticking and it's possible there may not be someone available before the window shuts.
Name Changed said:
Who says anything about panicking and having a repeat of Fellaini? We are an attractive proposition because we can pay big money. We can still get players, we simply have to overpay. We know that. The club knows that. If we don't get the players in, we will not get back into the CL. There are players available who would drastically improve us.
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Again, who? Honestly you've named nobody other than Vidal who would drastically improve us in midfield, and we've no idea if he's a plausible option, for multiple reasons.
 
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Name Changed said:
Exactly. United are a massive club, with massive resources. Back then City were just a club with massive resources. They managed to get players.

I cannot understand people being so naive that they think we couldn't.
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But back then City had way, way more money than anyone else to spend.

Sure, we've lots of money now but everyone else has just as much as us. It's not an advantage, it's a prerequisite.
 
We don't even need to get in world stars. They're are plenty of lesser known young talents our there who would jump at the chance of joining us. I can keep banging out on how weak our midfield is and we seem to do nothing about it.
Getting De Jong to play in midfield for a year would help us massively in getting 4th place. We have just been so slow in the market and have got very little done.

If we had just managed to beat Swansea on the weekend none of his panic or desperation would have set in. I really hope it was just a bad game and LVG can get us playing a lot better.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Recent history says otherwise. We've missed out on lots of players in recent years. Even wen we had CL football and Sir Alex. Football plays a part but the clubs we're competing with to get players have just as much money as we do.
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It's because we aren't always willing to overpay top wages, which proves my point, it's always about the money, top players would go to Russia and play while getting racially abused and still take it for the money, they'd go to Monaco and play in front of no one just for the money, if we're willing to pay top wages the players will come, it's that simple.
 
Someone said:
It's because we aren't always willing to overpay top wages, which proves my point, it's always about the money, top players would go to Russia and play while getting racially abused and still take it for the money, they'd go to Monaco and play in front of no one just for the money, if we're willing to pay top wages the players will come, it's that simple.
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It's really, really not, because everyone else can afford these top wages too. The Russian clubs were paying way higher wages than anyone else at the time. So were City back then, so were PSG and Monaco (tax haven, lest we forget). They all paid way, way higher wages than every other club, that's how they got the players. We may have money but we can't afford to completely outbid and go way over the odds to get the players like those clubs did.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Again, who? Honestly you've named nobody other than Vidal who would drastically improve us in midfield, and we've no idea if he's a plausible option, for multiple reasons.
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Khedira would be a massive upgrade on either Fletcher or Carrick. Massive. And Vidal is plausible, we just don't want to pay what he is worth.
 
Massive Spanner said:
It's really, really not, because everyone else can afford these top wages too. The Russian clubs were paying way higher wages than anyone else at the time. So were City back then, so were PSG and Monaco (tax haven, lest we forget). They all paid way, way higher wages than every other club, that's how they got the players. We may have money but we can't afford to completely outbid and go way over the odds to get the players like those clubs did.
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You're assuming that it's always a bidding war but that's not always the case, only united linked to vidal for example, real, barcelona, city and chelsea are mainly done in the market, psg may want di maria but they can't afford him and bayern are after a defender and that's it, i don't see much competition, if the money is there we'll get the players we want, it's just a matter of how far are we willing to bend over.
 
Someone said:
You're assuming that it's always a bidding war but that's not always the case, only united linked to vidal for example, real, barcelona, city and chelsea are mainly done in the market, psg may want di maria but they can't afford him and bayern are after a defender and that's it, i don't see much competition, if the money is there we'll get the players we want, it's just a matter of how far are we willing to bend over.
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I'm not, at all. I'm saying that those clubs were able to get those players by virtue of being able to lure them there by shattering the normal wage boundaries that existed at the time. That's why they were such lucrative propositions for the players, that's how they were able to convince them.

We, on the other hand, cannot shatter wage boundaries. We can potentially match lots of them, but not far exceed them.
 
Neither the glazers nor Woodward are football people. They are doing the only thing owners have always done in situations such as these, splash the cash and hope everything will return to normalcy. If you think about it, it is amazing now after relying on fergie for our success on the field, they couldn't give two shits about his opinion on sacking Moyes. I am afraid we could be on a downward spiral if things don't work out with LvG, I hope to feck he can turn things around for the owners and fans. This is a crucial period for our club and any bad decision making could affect us badly in the long term.
 
Adebesi said:
Are we heading towards a situation where we dont qualify for the CL, therefore cant bring in a higher calibre of player, therefore may find it difficult to get back into the CL? Is this a strong argument for throwing the kitchen sink at getting reinforcements in January?

Or do you think Manchester United still has enough kudos to attract top quality players even without CL football? Im sure many Liverpool fans felt the same way. Dont want to be a panicmonger but this is the stuff secular downturns are made of.

Im not sure how this ties in with the debate about what to do with the manager. Sacking Moyes is no guarantee of a reversal of fortunes - quite the contrary IMO. Just as sticking with Moyes is no guarantee of long term success: just because SAF came good after a number of years and then went on to achieve great success, doesnt mean Moyes will.

I guess it comes down to whether people are naturally optimistic or pessimistic people. But inasmuch as it is possible to be objective about this, should we be worried about the omens? And if not, where are people finding their optimism from at the moment?
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Back in the days Bayern, Real and Chelsea fixed it signing great and proven players.
 
Massive Spanner said:
I'm not, at all. I'm saying that those clubs were able to get those players by virtue of being able to lure them there by shattering the normal wage boundaries that existed at the time. That's why they were such lucrative propositions for the players, that's how they were able to convince them.

We, on the other hand, cannot shatter wage boundaries. We can potentially match lots of them, but not far exceed them.
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I'm struggling to understand why, if it's a question of us being capable then yes we're definitely capable, if it's about our willingness to do that then yes i agree, and that's my whole point, if we pay what others pay we'll attract the best players in the world no problem.
 
Someone said:
I'm struggling to understand why, if it's a question of us being capable then yes we're definitely capable, if it's about our willingness to do that then yes i agree, and that's my whole point, if we pay what others pay we'll attract the best players in the world no problem.
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Well, we are doing that. Man City are the only PL club with a higher wage bill than us. PSG are the only European club with a higher net spend than us in the last five windows. All I'm saying is that it's unrealistic for us to start handing out wages that absolutely no other club out there can do, that would be mental.
 
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I'm with Massive Spanner on this one. We have spent a serious amount of money. If the right player is available for the right price I have no doubt that LVG would sanction it and Ed get the job done.

If a CM does not materialise then it is not end of the world. I disagree that it is all over by January in that scenario. Carrick is back to training start of October according to reports. In the meantime we play Sunderland (A), Burnley (A), QPR (H), Leicester (A), West Ham (H), Everton (H). Six games against bottom half (quartile?!) teams with the exception of Everton. I imagine Carrick would be available for WBA away after the international break. I can see him forming a good, balanced partnership with Herrera.

If you guys really think that after that run of games (during which we will also have RVP, Shaw, Evans etc back playing) we will be totally out of touch of a top four finish then you are in full PANIC MODE :wenger: and need to calm the feck down. We have only played one game this season for criss-sake!
 
Redguern said:
I'm with Massive Spanner on this one. We have spent a serious amount of money. If the right player is available for the right price I have no doubt that LVG would sanction it and Ed get the job done.

If a CM does not materialise then it is not end of the world. I disagree that it is all over by January in that scenario. Carrick is back to training start of October according to reports. In the meantime we play Sunderland (A), Burnley (A), QPR (H), Leicester (A), West Ham (H), Everton (H). Six games against bottom half (quartile?!) teams with the exception of Everton. I imagine Carrick would be available for WBA away after the international break. I can see him forming a good, balanced partnership with Herrera.

If you guys really think that after that run of games (during which we will also have RVP, Shaw, Evans etc back playing) we will be totally out of touch of a top four finish then you are in full PANIC MODE :wenger: and need to calm the feck down. We have only played one game this season for criss-sake!
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I can't believe people seem to think that these are easy games. We got beaten at home by Swansea last week and deservedly so. We have no diving right to beat these teams and I guarantee you we will not win them all.

And secondly, Carrick? Carrick was terrible last season and some people seem to view him as some kind of messiah.
 
Name Changed said:
And some of the stuff Juve said earlier in the window. I'm not going to go through it again.
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Eh? Juve have literally said throughout that he's not for sale, they want to keep him etc. It's only the transfer muppets on here that are somehow construing that to mean that "oh, oh, they are panicking and obviously want to sell".
 
Massive Spanner said:
Than City? Chelsea? Real? Barca? PSG? Monaco?

I doubt it.
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Well Woodward says the club has vast amounts of cash and could easily break the world record. I don't know why you are doubting it, it's straight out of the Chairman's mouth and he knows more than all of us.
 
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