VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

Golden Nugget said:
Its a good point - and this is coming from someone that didn’t think Garnachos was a penalty.

They need to be consistent - Cas gets the ball and follows through and catches the guy- it’s a red. KWP gets the ball, scissors and injures Garnacho - not even a foul. Both get the ball but can potentially injure players - one is a red and the other isn’t even a foul.
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I was shocked by the choice of words from official manutd.com

https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...te-on-alejandro-garnacho-injury-v-southampton

The 18-year-old, who was initially brought on to replace Jadon Sancho with 17 minutes remaining in the game, was forced off in injury-time, not long after bearing the brunt of a heavy, but fair, challenge from Southampton full-back Kyle Walker-Peters.
 
Another massive inconsistency is stoppage time. How the devil did they decide on only one minute at the end of the first half? Exasperating, as was four minutes for the second half. The amount of time wasting, especially when lower teams visit Old Trafford, is ridiculous. Felt like a chore being at the game yesterday.

As for the other decisions, these inconsistencies were arguably more acceptable in the past as football was never a perfect sport. You knew some things would go your way and others wouldn't, in the hope it would 'even itself out.' Now that they're trying to apply a more meticulous interpretation of increasingly complex rules, it's much easier to get annoyed by the overall level of officiating.

Why aren't subs going off at the nearest side?
Why doesn't stoppage time ever appear to add up?
Why are multiple players always inside the box when a penalty kick is taken?
Why is the 10-year wall sometimes much closer and other times a mile away?
What the heck is offside these days?
Come to think of it, what the heck is handball these days?

I was always hopeful VAR and other changes could make football a perfect sport. I've since come to realise that perhaps the beauty of football is its inherent imperfections.
 
Parma Dewol said:
Another massive inconsistency is stoppage time. How the devil did they decide on only one minute at the end of the first half? Exasperating, as was four minutes for the second half. The amount of time wasting, especially when lower teams visit Old Trafford, is ridiculous. Felt like a chore being at the game yesterday.

As for the other decisions, these inconsistencies were arguably more acceptable in the past as football was never a perfect sport. You knew some things would go your way and others wouldn't, in the hope it would 'even itself out.' Now that they're trying to apply a more meticulous interpretation of increasingly complex rules, it's much easier to get annoyed by the overall level of officiating.

Why aren't subs going off at the nearest side?
Why doesn't stoppage time ever appear to add up?
Why are multiple players always inside the box when a penalty kick is taken?
Why is the 10-year wall sometimes much closer and other times a mile away?
What the heck is offside these days?
Come to think of it, what the heck is handball these days?

I was always hopeful VAR and other changes could make football a perfect sport. I've since come to realise that perhaps the beauty of football is its inherent imperfections.
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This one is most shoddily applied rule in football. Referees enforce it when they feel like it, and it's hardly ever in situations when it needs to be enforced.
 
Parma Dewol said:
Another massive inconsistency is stoppage time. How the devil did they decide on only one minute at the end of the first half? Exasperating, as was four minutes for the second half. The amount of time wasting, especially when lower teams visit Old Trafford, is ridiculous. Felt like a chore being at the game yesterday.

As for the other decisions, these inconsistencies were arguably more acceptable in the past as football was never a perfect sport. You knew some things would go your way and others wouldn't, in the hope it would 'even itself out.' Now that they're trying to apply a more meticulous interpretation of increasingly complex rules, it's much easier to get annoyed by the overall level of officiating.

Why aren't subs going off at the nearest side?
Why doesn't stoppage time ever appear to add up?
Why are multiple players always inside the box when a penalty kick is taken?
Why is the 10-year wall sometimes much closer and other times a mile away?
What the heck is offside these days?
Come to think of it, what the heck is handball these days?

I was always hopeful VAR and other changes could make football a perfect sport. I've since come to realise that perhaps the beauty of football is its inherent imperfections.
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It is quite mental really when you actually think about it that in 2023 a wall is marked out by a ref walking. Why don't they just give the ref a 10 yard measuring tape?!
 
cyberman said:
Literally the last angle shows it hitting the Southampton defenders arm first. It’s like I’m being gaslighted
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LawCharltonBest said:
That idiot said The handball wasn't a handball because it was an accident. But the Casemiro red was still a red even though it was accidental

No bother listening to him, its a shame Sky hire bias people like that
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My intention posting that was actually in relation to the second video. The clearest view showing Rashford being clipped by the keeper which tripped him up.

I expect the referee wouldn’t have seen the contact. In which case surely that’s a clear and obvious error that VAR is meant to be there for. It doesn’t make sense saying to trust the Refs view as he’s clearly not seen it.

I’ve seen stupid videos online claiming Rashford dived.
 
That Dermot guy was on sky this morning with two scouse prats trying to justify the calamitous performance of Antony Taylor and Andre Marriner. You would think they had a great performance based on their "analysis". Shocking boys club aura.
 
stevoc said:
Yep that one was ludicrous. I understand the Refs themselves not wanting to do interviews but the Refs should have a spokesman that can come on and explain their strange decisions after matches. It might make them a bit more reluctant to make baffling decisions like that.
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They would just do as in the sky clip above describing the handball, where the guy describes a completely different version of events than the one we can see unfolding with our own eyes.
 
If clubs continue to brush everything under the carpet and do nothing, how will VAR improve?
 
Parma Dewol said:
Another massive inconsistency is stoppage time. How the devil did they decide on only one minute at the end of the first half? Exasperating, as was four minutes for the second half. The amount of time wasting, especially when lower teams visit Old Trafford, is ridiculous. Felt like a chore being at the game yesterday.

As for the other decisions, these inconsistencies were arguably more acceptable in the past as football was never a perfect sport. You knew some things would go your way and others wouldn't, in the hope it would 'even itself out.' Now that they're trying to apply a more meticulous interpretation of increasingly complex rules, it's much easier to get annoyed by the overall level of officiating.

Why aren't subs going off at the nearest side?
Why doesn't stoppage time ever appear to add up?
Why are multiple players always inside the box when a penalty kick is taken?
Why is the 10-year wall sometimes much closer and other times a mile away?
What the heck is offside these days?
Come to think of it, what the heck is handball these days?

I was always hopeful VAR and other changes could make football a perfect sport. I've since come to realise that perhaps the beauty of football is its inherent imperfections.
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Probably still only get 3 mins added time.
 
Parma Dewol said:
Another massive inconsistency is stoppage time. How the devil did they decide on only one minute at the end of the first half? Exasperating, as was four minutes for the second half. The amount of time wasting, especially when lower teams visit Old Trafford, is ridiculous. Felt like a chore being at the game yesterday.

As for the other decisions, these inconsistencies were arguably more acceptable in the past as football was never a perfect sport. You knew some things would go your way and others wouldn't, in the hope it would 'even itself out.' Now that they're trying to apply a more meticulous interpretation of increasingly complex rules, it's much easier to get annoyed by the overall level of officiating.

Why aren't subs going off at the nearest side?
Why doesn't stoppage time ever appear to add up?
Why are multiple players always inside the box when a penalty kick is taken?
Why is the 10-year wall sometimes much closer and other times a mile away?
What the heck is offside these days?
Come to think of it, what the heck is handball these days?

I was always hopeful VAR and other changes could make football a perfect sport. I've since come to realise that perhaps the beauty of football is its inherent imperfections.
Click to expand...

The answer to this is Anthony Taylor. Collina’s directive at the World Cup was to cut out time wasting - so there were large amounts of added time given in each match - which I thought was great. One of the matches it was 3/4 matches, despite there being a lot of time waiting - who was the ref for that match? Anthony Taylor.

VAR works - I thought it was great at the World Cup - it’s just shocking in the Premier League and refereeing has actually gotten worse after it.
 
Golden Nugget said:
The answer to this is Anthony Taylor. Collina’s directive at the World Cup was to cut out time wasting - so there were large amounts of added time given in each match - which I thought was great. One of the matches it was 3/4 matches, despite there being a lot of time waiting - who was the ref for that match? Anthony Taylor.

VAR works - I thought it was great at the World Cup - it’s just shocking in the Premier League and refereeing has actually gotten worse after it.
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How much of an authority, if any, does Collina or the FIFA ref chief have on PL refs?
 
Golden Nugget said:
The answer to this is Anthony Taylor. Collina’s directive at the World Cup was to cut out time wasting - so there were large amounts of added time given in each match - which I thought was great. One of the matches it was 3/4 matches, despite there being a lot of time waiting - who was the ref for that match? Anthony Taylor.

VAR works - I thought it was great at the World Cup - it’s just shocking in the Premier League and refereeing has actually gotten worse after it.
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The reason why it doesn't work in the PL as well as it for the most part does in UEFA/FIFA competitions is how VAR is implemented. The English refs fancy themselves the best in the world and were hostile to its introduction and every season since they've chopped and changed how they use it. Ultimately it comes down to ego, many of them don't like to be overruled. I think for the first 1 or 2 seasons some refs didn't allow their decisions to be changed and no Ref even went over to the monitor to see if they'd been wrong.
 
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RedDevil@84 said:
If clubs continue to brush everything under the carpet and do nothing, how will VAR improve?
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This is important. At least from our side. There need to be official statements about ABU refereeing that have been since end of Fergie days. We need to speak out and demand cams and mics on referees and in VAR room. We need to have transparency and explanation why so many decisions go against us. Important ones. Same decisions that are barely noticed in other games. We need to bring this up every game. Before and after. Regardless of what score is. Club must say that it is enough now. We should not get bullied anymore.

This have been more and more clear for every game and season. You can make misstakes. Nobody is saying anything else. Once, twice. Even more. But to have this misstakes against one team? So many times? We have lost so many points because of wierd refeering that we never had any chance to compete for trophies. At least not Premier League.
 
Bobade said:
They would just do as in the sky clip above describing the handball, where the guy describes a completely different version of events than the one we can see unfolding with our own eyes.
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They might but there's only so far they could stretch the truth every week before it becomes laughable.

Which reminds me the expert former referees shouldn't be former English PL refs. We know that PGMOL is just an old boys clubs who will never criticise each other, Clattenburg has said as much.

They should get English speaking foreign Refs in to discuss decisions in the studio. Having their crap decisions pulled apart by respected former Refs who actually will criticise them might make them get their fingers out and raise standards.
 
What would be interesting to see would be how many times has a referee been asked to go over to the monitor to review a decision for each individual team, both for decisions that would benefit them and also for decisions that would be detrimental to them.
That should go some way to working out if some teams are being favoured or not.
Anyone got the time to work that out?
 
One thing that bugs me, and it might be small in comparison compared to the glaring errors and inconsistencies being discussed here, is the amount of liberty taken at throw ins.

I know you can't be 100% playing the ball from where it went out but the amount of times I've seen players crawling up the side line at a throwing, taking an extra few yards and not being called back by the officials, really grinds my gears!
 
always_hoping said:
Dermot Gallagher was and forever will be a prat
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It doesn't even matter what body part it hits first. That was only a thing between 2019 and 2022 . The guidelines got updated in 2019 to say that if it ricochets of another body part onto the arm it's not a handball
This guideline was removed at the start of this season. I still see pundits and now even ex referees quoting it when it's now meaningless.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
How much of an authority, if any, does Collina or the FIFA ref chief have on PL refs?
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Wiki says he’s the UEFA head of referees - I’m not sure if it applies to specific leagues or just the European competitions.


stevoc said:
The reason why it doesn't work in the PL as well as it for the most part does in UEFA/FIFA competitions is how AVR is implemented. The English refs fancy themselves the best in the world and were hostile to its introduction and every season since they've chopped and changed how they use it. Ultimately it comes down to ego, many of them don't like to be overruled. I think for the first 1 or 2 seasons some refs didn't allow their decisions to be changed and no Ref even went over to the monitor to see if they'd been wrong.
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Yeah I agree with this - which is frustrating. I think we all acknowledge and appreciate it’s a difficult job - but instead of embracing the changes and technology that can really help them, it really feels like they’re doing whatever they can to get rid of it
 
stevoc said:
Of course but it isn't the fans job to know the rules inside out.
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No it isn't but they lose a lot of credibility when they complain about rules they don't know or understand
 
I don't understand our club today and decision not to appeal. One more game is nothing. It is like saying, you can do what you want with us. No wonder we are where we are when it comes to decisions. I understand that the chance to get that red card overturned is 0. And it shouldn't. So why appeal? To send a statement and put out evidence of exactly same or worse situation going unpunished. To bring injustice towards us into the light. Be loud about it.
 
Parma Dewol said:
Another massive inconsistency is stoppage time. How the devil did they decide on only one minute at the end of the first half? Exasperating, as was four minutes for the second half. The amount of time wasting, especially when lower teams visit Old Trafford, is ridiculous. Felt like a chore being at the game yesterday.
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In second half added time one of the Southampton players went down past the goal line, slowly gets up, trots back on field, and immediately goes down. Was such an obvious time wasting tactic likely taught.
 
Red in STL said:
No it isn't but they lose a lot of credibility when they complain about rules they don't know or understand
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Well perhaps but how deep does one's knowledge of the the rules have to be for their opinion to be credible, when half the time Professional Referees don't seem to know or understand them either, yet it's their full time job and they're making £50-100k per year with the expectation that they should know them?
 
There are no neutrals when it comes to United.
You either love United as a fan or hate them as a fan of any other club.
The unprecedented success under SAF has made this even worse.
No wonder referees are less than impartial when it comes to any decision that could be ‘interpreted’.
It’s easier for them to give decisions against United, as it means an easier life from anyone but United fans.
 
I have said it before in the thread, we need to put the PGMOL under pressure the next few weeks with a multi pronged strategy. Get our ex-players/ pundits more vocal on any wrong decision. Have EtH talk about poor decisions from past matches again and again. Compare our decisions with some of the others and keep on harping on inconsistencies.
Its time we take it in our own hands. We are not Liverpool so it is always difficult to create a narrative which gets amplified by pundits. Nonetheless, we have to try.
 
Don't forget the disallowed Arsenal goal as well.. They already admitted that was a mistake

That VVD tackle is a red as well. I'll give you that. Some teams, Liverpool and Spurs regularly seem to get away with it.
 
Mb194dc said:
Don't forget the disallowed Arsenal goal as well.. They already admitted that was a mistake

That VVD tackle is a red as well. I'll give you that. Some teams, Liverpool and Spurs regularly seem to get away with it.
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Well their first mistake in that situation was not awarding Eriksen a free kick. So the situation only arose because they fecked us over to begin with.
 
SAF is the GOAT said:
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Thank you for posting this. Really puts it into perspective. Really no doubt, not even worthy of discussion any of those clips. Blatant wrong refereeing behaviour right there. How many points you'd think we'd collect if these horrible mistakes wasn't accepted/encouraged. We'd probably be up there with Arsenal right now, such is the margins of the PL. The clips miss a few more penalty incidents but the McTominay penalty is just incredible. How is it possible to not give a penalty, even with bias is beyond me. They simply can't even try to explain how that is not a penalty without exposing some sort of bias.
 
MikeKing said:
Thank you for posting this. Really puts it into perspective. Really no doubt, not even worthy of discussion any of those clips. Blatant wrong refereeing behaviour right there. How many points you'd think we'd collect if these horrible mistakes wasn't accepted/encouraged. We'd probably be up there with Arsenal right now, such is the margins of the PL. The clips miss a few more penalty incidents but the McTominay penalty is just incredible. How is it possible to not give a penalty, even with bias is beyond me. They simply can't even try to explain how that is not a penalty without exposing some sort of bias.
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Yeah that one is unbelievable. It's as blatant a pen as you'll ever see. I was flabbergasted when they didn't give a pen for that.
 
Weghorst one is the worst for me. You can argue that the Palace one is a 50/50 that he arrives slightly late to, and that he uses his shoulder etc and that given the high bar for VAR they shouldn’t get involved. I mean, I’d still call you a moron for holding that view, but you could argue that way.

The Weghorst one though… in what rule-book can you have the ball taken away from you and pelt a guy in the shin with the force of a clearance and “no foul” is not a clearly wrong decision?
 
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