VAR and Refs | General Discussion

awop said:
There's a shirt pull on Gabriel. Enough to make him fall/slip ? I wouldn't say so, we got very lucky but the ref whistled too fast and Ramsdale stopped playing.
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The ref called a foul for pulling an opponents shirt. It doesn't have to be enough for him to make the opponent fall. Later on, Saka was fouled in the box and the commentator said he "should have gone down earlier" but instead managed a weak shot while off balance. There's zero incentive to stay on your feet with the way our games are often refereed.

Mbuemo committed a foul. The ref spotted it and gave a free kick. Had he not put the ball in the net after Arsenal had stopped defending, it wouldn't even have been a match highlight.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
No but was offside if Maguire got his head to it. I didn’t see enough replays to be certain but he might have got a touch.
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Yeah ok but it looks to me like Maguire missed it completely and it landed on the Leeds player's hand.

 
Withnail said:
Of course they're talking about snippets that they can edit, just in case. This is just lip service. That bunch of clowns have no interest in real transparency.
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What you actually need is two VAR officials, they should just run through the VAR checklist for whatever incident is being checked, the same way air crew do. Then you can have that audio live and as long as they're able to get the correct checklist, you should nearly eliminate all the mistakes.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, totally. It was one of those very complicated ones that they should have looked at for ages. But obviously just thought it’s injury time, so feck it. I want to beat the traffic and get home for my tea.
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The commentators put it under more scrutiny than the refs. Whoever it was said it came of the Leeds player and they should have looked at that.
 
Idxomer said:
Yeah ok but it looks to me like Maguire missed it completely and it landed on the Leeds player's hand.

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Ok, yeah. From that angle only possible decision is allowing the goal to stand (playing advantage after possible hand ball) Don’t even need to worry where exactly it hit the defender on the arm. Still a goal.
 
arnie_ni said:
The commentators put it under more scrutiny than the refs. Whoever it was said it came of the Leeds player and they should have looked at that.
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They should have called it out more. I hate the way they act as if the broadcasters are part of the league.
Same way with the Wolves goal v Liverpool. They give offside, the tv pictures didn’t show it but you still had BBC say the player was just off even though they didn’t know what they were looking at. They had to be told 5 minutes later.
Feck sake
 
Pexbo said:
Exactly what I said above. Try explaining that to someone who is waiting on that third goal for an accumulator to pay out thousands. Try explaining that to a club at the end of the season when they miss out on the CL and all that comes with it by goal difference.

Because those involved with VAR don’t take it seriously enough to do their job properly.
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Only seen your post after I wrote mine but you’re spot on. They’re incompetent and lazy. A serious review needs to take place.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
This fecking phrase is almost exactly as annoying and wrong-headed as the NRA’s catchphrase “guns don’t kill people, people do” (and much less forgivable as it isn’t the basis for a great Goldie Looking Chain lyric)
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So it's the video that's at fault and not those that implement it?

A better analogy would be car accidents, are cars at fault or the people operating them? See I can make stupid comments too.

Also, off to listen to some Goldie Looking Chain!
 
The Weghorst one will probably just be swept under the rug as it didn't impact the result, but I hope they come out and acknowledge the error still.
 
yumtum said:
So it's the video that's at fault and not those that implement it?

A better analogy would be car accidents, are cars at fault or the people operating them? See I can make stupid comments too.

Also, off to listen to some Goldie Looking Chain!
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You turned it round with that last sentence!

I just think a lot of the problems with VAR are inherent to implementing it in a sport which doesn’t suit it. So we veer wildly between excruciating long delays which bore the tits off everyone in the stadium, or the rushed and half-arsed attempts at VAR we’ve been dealing with recently when they realised implementing VAR properly would bore the tits off everyone in the stadium.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You turned it round with that last sentence!

I just think a lot of the problems with VAR are inherent to implementing it in a sport which doesn’t suit it. So we veer wildly between excruciating long delays which bore the tits off everyone in the stadium, or the rushed and half-arsed attempts at VAR we’ve been dealing with recently when they realised implementing VAR properly would bore the tits off everyone in the stadium.
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Yeah, I apologise for being antagonistic.

I get what you mean, the delays are unnecessary, but again, that's due to the idiots running the damn thing, the first goal yesterday probably didn't even need to be deliberated on for more than 10 seconds.

You need competent people reviewing these incidents as the game plays out, if an offside call is so tight that it cannot be distinguished without 16 different angles playing back and forth in slow motion then let it stand.

There's only ambiguity because the the powers that be make it so - goal celebrations last at least 20 seconds, if you cant make a decision in that time its not an obvious mistake.

The current iteration of VAR is terrible, we just need to get to a point where the people running it dont have a tech deficiency and it'll be grand.
 
yumtum said:
Yeah, I apologise for being antagonistic.

I get what you mean, the delays are unnecessary, but again, that's due to the idiots running the damn thing, the first goal yesterday probably didn't even need to be deliberated on for more than 10 seconds.

You need competent people reviewing these incidents as the game plays out, if an offside call is so tight that it cannot be distinguished without 16 different angles playing back and forth in slow motion then let it stand.

There's only ambiguity because the the powers that be make it so - goal celebrations last at least 20 seconds, if you cant make a decision in that time its not an obvious mistake.

The current iteration of VAR is terrible, we just need to get to a point where the people running it dont have a tech deficiency and it'll be grand.
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No need to apologise, I started it! ;)
 
yumtum said:
So it's the video that's at fault and not those that implement it?

A better analogy would be car accidents, are cars at fault or the people operating them? See I can make stupid comments too.

Also, off to listen to some Goldie Looking Chain!
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What do you think the R In VAR is? The video isn’t sentient. It can’t make decisions. VAR and refs are one and the same. If you criticise VAR, you’re criticising the individuals not the video itself.
 
acnumber9 said:
What do you think the R In VAR is? The video isn’t sentient. It can’t make decisions. VAR and refs are one and the same. If you criticise VAR, you’re criticising the individuals not the video itself.
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Erm, no.

Also, did I say that the video was sentient? VAR is just a nice little acronym.

I'll phrase it better, don't blame the V for the ARs fault.
 
JustinC00 said:
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Has there been an investigation into this yet? Forgetting to draw lines is the stupidest excuse I’ve heard so far. I’ll bet any money he looked at the monitor, thought it was clearly on and didn’t bother his hole doing his job.
 
cyberman said:
Has there been an investigation into this yet? Forgetting to draw lines is the stupidest excuse I’ve heard so far. I’ll bet any money he looked at the monitor, thought it was clearly on and didn’t bother his hole doing his job.
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Even the goal for Weghorst that got disallowed even though it didn't touch Maguire. Or the penalty on McTominay against Palace, or penalty on Bissaka against Arsenal. These things are costing teams points, it's a farce that only now that one thing for Arsenal gets so much attention. Not even the worst thing happen to miss, but I don't understand the need to apologise for that one but not all these other incidents. Whats the difference?
 
MikeKing said:
Even the goal for Weghorst that got disallowed even though it didn't touch Maguire. Or the penalty on McTominay against Palace, or penalty on Bissaka against Arsenal. These things are costing teams points, it's a farce that only now that one thing for Arsenal gets so much attention. Not even the worst thing happen to miss, but I don't understand the need to apologise for that one but not all these other incidents. Whats the difference?
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Because one guy blatantly didn't do his job by not drawings the lines. For ww for example the ref could say ah I though maguire touched it, my bad.

There's a massive difference in my view. Not drawings the lines imo, should be sackable.
 
arnie_ni said:
Because one guy blatantly didn't do his job by not drawings the lines. For ww for example the ref could say ah I though maguire touched it, my bad.

There's a massive difference in my view. Not drawings the lines imo, should be sackable.
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You're not making any sense here. One guy didn't do his job by not drawing the lines, and the other failed to do his job by not watching the footage.

Not watching the footage at all is surely worse than watching the footage and forgetting to put down the lines? He can't just say "ah I thought Maguire touched it" when he's the one that has the footage which can prove whether that was the case or not.

Otherwise, to go back to your example, the guy with(out) the lines can just say "ah I thought the Brentford players was onside my bad", and it'd be equally nonsensical. Whether a player has touched the ball is exactly as factual as an offside is (ignoring the bit about frame rate, exact freeze frame etc), so there shouldn't really be an excuse for just ignoring to watch the footage.
 
Michael Salisbury the VAR official for our game vs the scum who didn't review Weghorst goal that was deemed offside which should have definitely went to VAR is reffing Bournemouth/Wolves so I guess they punished him for that feck up

Also is it weird that Paul Tierney who just reffed our match vs the scum is on VAR for our match against Leicester?
 
yumtum said:
Erm, no.

Also, did I say that the video was sentient? VAR is just a nice little acronym.

I'll phrase it better, don't blame the V for the ARs fault.
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The V can’t operate independent of the R. So yes, criticising VAR is a criticism of the refs.
 
Anustart89 said:
You're not making any sense here. One guy didn't do his job by not drawing the lines, and the other failed to do his job by not watching the footage.

Not watching the footage at all is surely worse than watching the footage and forgetting to put down the lines? He can't just say "ah I thought Maguire touched it" when he's the one that has the footage which can prove whether that was the case or not.

Otherwise, to go back to your example, the guy with(out) the lines can just say "ah I thought the Brentford players was onside my bad", and it'd be equally nonsensical. Whether a player has touched the ball is exactly as factual as an offside is (ignoring the bit about frame rate, exact freeze frame etc), so there shouldn't really be an excuse for just ignoring to watch the footage.
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I don't agree personally. There one angle of Ww goal that is inconclusive so wouldn't meet the the clear and obvious threshold. That may have been the only angle shown to him.

Look it's still a mistake ad evidence by the other angles on social media, but I don't think in compares to actually refusing to draw lines for an offside which is the only thing he is required to do.
 
arnie_ni said:
I don't agree personally. There one angle of Ww goal that is inconclusive so wouldn't meet the the clear and obvious threshold. That may have been the only angle shown to him.

Look it's still a mistake ad evidence by the other angles on social media, but I don't think in compares to actually refusing to draw lines for an offside which is the only thing he is required to do.
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Interjecting on a minor point here but the only angle shown to who?

Doesn't the VAR have access to all the angles so they can (supposedly) assist the ref come to the correct decision?
 
arnie_ni said:
Arent you too arguing the same thing? It'd the refs fault?
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Not really. He said it’s not a VAR problem, it’s a ref problem. VAR is just a ref watching tv. If there’s a problem with the ref there’s a problem with VAR.
 
arnie_ni said:
I don't agree personally. There one angle of Ww goal that is inconclusive so wouldn't meet the the clear and obvious threshold. That may have been the only angle shown to him.

Look it's still a mistake ad evidence by the other angles on social media, but I don't think in compares to actually refusing to draw lines for an offside which is the only thing he is required to do.
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I thought offside decisions were binary, on or off. Not subject to the clear and obvious threshold, which is for fouls where intent and force can make them subjective.
 
The Premier League will be praying Arsenal don’t lose out on the title by a point or 2 because you know this will all come back up.

Tin foil hat on, anyone think Arsenal will get a favourable decision or 2 go their way in the coming months?

Coincidence or not we had definitely had some shockers called against us after the City game, no penalty vs Palace being the best example.
 
Verminator said:
I thought offside decisions were binary, on or off. Not subject to the clear and obvious threshold, which is for fouls where intent and force can make them subjective.
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They are, but I'd imagine who touched it last being subjective, would fall under clear and obvious territory id have thought but could be wrong. Either way, WW was a mistake.

The ref that didn't draw the lines just flat out didn't do his job and that's inexcusable in my eyes. Even the ref that drew the line of the wrong defender making an absolutely major feck up, still "done" his job so to speak
 
As an American I find the fact that the teams referees support is implied to affect their performance so much very odd. NFL referees go to great lengths not to care about me team or another and there are panels that review and grade their accuracy and consistency after each game. Your score drops below a certain level? You don’t referee games.

As a Chelsea fan the VAR stuff bothers me, but what is worse is the vitriol and agenda I’ve seen that pits players on actual harms way. A Nottingham Forrest player had to ride on the back of one of our guys with his arm around his throat for them to get their first yellow. And people are just telling me “That’s how NF plays at home, it’s why their record is so much better there”. What?? How is that acceptable.

A West Ham player flew in with a WWE style flying scissor tackle on Mudryk and they just signaled continuation with no card forthcoming later.

Our guys are coming out of games with their socks shredded, and we are NOT allowed to play the same way.

Then I get people telling me “well that’s because you don’t want to draw him as a ref; he’s an Arsenal guy”.

I’m sure a great deal of the league has their nose out of joint about how much money Chelsea has spent, and what they are doing. But that isn’t an excuse for Refs and the system to toss what remains of their integrity in the toilet.

And I’m focusing on Chelsea, but this isn’t a Chelsea only issue m. Wasn’t there a ref who eventually wasn’t allowed to do United games for awhile because he had it out for you?

That should never happen. If a ref is that biased they shouldn’t ref… not just get moved to different games.
 
Withnail said:
Interjecting on a minor point here but the only angle shown to who?

Doesn't the VAR have access to all the angles so they can (supposedly) assist the ref come to the correct decision?
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Possibly, but we know how these things work, after watching every single angle around sky find the one that makes the difference for when they are discussing it after but this takes time.

Id imagine the decisive clip sometimes gets overlooked by VAR in the moment, in the speed of trying to make it (not saying it should happen).

just look at the casemiro red that came out on social media later that night.
 
acnumber9 said:
Not really. He said it’s not a VAR problem, it’s a ref problem. VAR is just a ref watching tv. If there’s a problem with the ref there’s a problem with VAR.
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Well yes and no. There wouldn't be a problem with VAR if we had competent refs. You can't scrap var because the refs are shit. You should replace them.

I get what you're saying though
 
arnie_ni said:
Possibly, but we know how these things work, after watching every single angle around sky find the one that makes the difference for when they are discussing it after but this takes time.

Id imagine the decisive clip sometimes gets overlooked by VAR in the moment, in the speed of trying to make it (not saying it should happen).

just look at the casemiro red that came out on social media later that night.
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I've no idea why you're talking about Sky in the context of VAR. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you but you seem a bit confused about how it works. I've gone and checked just in case I didn't have it right. The VAR have independent access to the game footage where they can view any angle they like. They aren't shown anything or reliant on anyone else for what they view.

But yes I do agree he obviously missed the decisive angle or wasn't paying attention which just isn't acceptable.
 
arnie_ni said:
Well yes and no. There wouldn't be a problem with VAR if we had competent refs. You can't scrap var because the refs are shit. You should replace them.

I get what you're saying though
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You can scrap it if it’s a net loss. Which many would say it is.
 
I wonder if we've written to the PGMOL and asked why a similar incident wasn't VAR checked for a red card and why we're being singled out
 
Anustart89 said:
I wonder if we've written to the PGMOL and asked why a similar incident wasn't VAR checked for a red card and why we're being singled out
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I have zero faith in the club being proactive like that. They seem to take everything lying down.
 
Pexbo said:
I have zero faith in the club being proactive like that. They seem to take everything lying down.
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Would have been useful for Potter to kick up a fuss too. And if there's one manager who needs to start winning that's him. Arteta had harsher comments about it today in his presser.
It's also a bit weird how the BBC and many outlets came out with their pieces about abuse of referees at grassroot level at the same time. Important topic to discuss but it feels like they want to "level" the argument.
 
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