VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

It's the inconsistency with refs decisions that get a lot of people's backs up. I've been saying it for years, but football needs to move on from having just one ref on the pitch, the pace of the game has changed dramatically since the inception of '1 ref and 2 linesmen'.

American Football has dozens of refs dotted around the pitch and sidelines, along with full motion replay systems. They hardly ever get decisions wrong because an important call is analysed to death to make sure its right.

For me, when it comes to handballs in the penalty area, all you have to ask is did the hand/arm change the trajectory of the ball? In the case of AWB it did because it blocked the cross that otherwise would have gone into the 6yrd area.
Likewise, the corner we had just afterwards where the Coventry player jumps up for a header and its clear as day the ball coming towards him in the air, rolls up his arm and off at an angle off his shoulder, is a penalty. His arm is forward of his body and its changed the trajectory of the ball coming in (that could have resulted in a United header on target) For the the exact same reasons AWB is a pentaly, the Coventry one has to be a penalty. It can't be 'either/or'.

Same with Grealish the day before in the semi, free kicks taken by Chelsea, Grealish jumps up, brings his arm in and changes the flight path of the ball, that potentially was heading for goal or another Chelsea player. But the ref and VAR doesn't even look at it.

All 3 should have been penalties in my view, but only 1 was and that's just not acceptable in the top tier of football. Its not good enough.
 
90 + 5min said:
Did TheFA said anything like this against Liverpool and their statement after Tottenham game? If not, why?

Instead of taking care of obvious problems in Premier League they are looking for other things to concentrate on.
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Are you intentionally missing the part where they called the ref's integrity into question?

You can give out about bad decisions but they've suggested the official or biased and/or corrupt based on which team they claim he supports. They've tried to water that down with subsequent statements but it was a very stupid thing to say.
 
wildflower2007 said:
It's the inconsistency with refs decisions that get a lot of people's backs up. I've been saying it for years, but football needs to move on from having just one ref on the pitch, the pace of the game has changed dramatically since the inception of '1 ref and 2 linesmen'.

American Football has dozens of refs dotted around the pitch and sidelines, along with full motion replay systems. They hardly ever get decisions wrong because an important call is analysed to death to make sure its right.

For me, when it comes to handballs in the penalty area, all you have to ask is did the hand/arm change the trajectory of the ball? In the case of AWB it did because it blocked the cross that otherwise would have gone into the 6yrd area.
Likewise, the corner we had just afterwards where the Coventry player jumps up for a header and its clear as day the ball coming towards him in the air, rolls up his arm and off at an angle off his shoulder, is a penalty. His arm is forward of his body and its changed the trajectory of the ball coming in (that could have resulted in a United header on target) For the the exact same reasons AWB is a pentaly, the Coventry one has to be a penalty. It can't be 'either/or'.

Same with Grealish the day before in the semi, free kicks taken by Chelsea, Grealish jumps up, brings his arm in and changes the flight path of the ball, that potentially was heading for goal or another Chelsea player. But the ref and VAR doesn't even look at it.

All 3 should have been penalties in my view, but only 1 was and that's just not acceptable in the top tier of football. Its not good enough.
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I don't think we need more refs. Even in the NFL they get things wrong a lot. I feel the problem with football refs is that:

1) They're too protected
2) They seem to have their own agendas
3) They get to hide behind 'clear and obvious'

However, I think these three issues can be solved with having their conversations broadcast live in the ground. For me, the single worst thing we have heard from a ref in recent years was Dean when he said that he didn't tell Taylor he had made a mistake in the Chelsea v Tottenham game (where Cucuarella got full on pulled down by his hair) because Taylor was his mate and he knew the Chelsea fans didn't like him so he didn't want to give them anything.
 
Withnail said:
Are you intentionally missing the part where they called the ref's integrity into question?

You can give out about bad decisions but they've suggested the official or biased and/or corrupt based on which team they claim he supports. They've tried to water that down with subsequent statements but it was a very stupid thing to say.
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Have you read Liverpool statement that day?

"Liverpool Football Club acknowledges PGMOL’s admission of their failures last night. It is clear that the correct application of the laws of the game did not occur, resulting in sporting integrity being undermined." and it keeps going.

"That such failings have already been categorised as “significant human error” is also unacceptable. Any and all outcomes should be established only by the review and with full transparency."

Finishing with "In the meantime, we will explore the range of options available, given the clear need for escalation and resolution."

Jurgen Klopp came out talking about replaying game. "I think the situation is that unprecedented that ... something like that, as far as I can remember, never happened. That's why a replay would be the right thing."

So they are also talking about integrity of the sport. In other words. If true that Nottingham contacted PGMOL about this situation and fears before game and you see bad decisions going against them you can't fault Nottingham for doing what they are doing. It was and is up to PGMOL to minimize risks for this to happen.

Have we not seen people write in here about Oliver and why he shouldn't be referee for big games and that certain team because of his other assignment?
 
90 + 5min said:
Have you read Liverpool statement that day?

"Liverpool Football Club acknowledges PGMOL’s admission of their failures last night. It is clear that the correct application of the laws of the game did not occur, resulting in sporting integrity being undermined." and it keeps going.

"That such failings have already been categorised as “significant human error” is also unacceptable. Any and all outcomes should be established only by the review and with full transparency."

Finishing with "In the meantime, we will explore the range of options available, given the clear need for escalation and resolution."

Jurgen Klopp came out talking about replaying game. "I think the situation is that unprecedented that ... something like that, as far as I can remember, never happened. That's why a replay would be the right thing."

So they are also talking about integrity of the sport. In other words. If true that Nottingham contacted PGMOL about this situation and fears before game and you see bad decisions going against them you can't fault Nottingham for doing what they are doing. It was and is up to PGMOL to minimize risks for this to happen.

Have we not seen people write in here about Oliver and why he shouldn't be referee for big games and that certain team because of his other assignment?
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It's not the same at all. They're talking in general terms about sporting integrity. If you have bad decisions and repeated human error yes it does undermine the integrity of the sport.

Forest are talking about the integrity of a specific official. They basically called the official corrupt and biased due to the team he supports (or inferred it at best) . I don't know how you don't see the difference.

As for people claiming specific refs shouldn't get certain games I ignore that completely. The refs are just shit and the system is poorly implemented. I don't think they're biased. However, it is a conflict on interest if you're brig paid by the state who own one of the teams but the the PL would have to admit state-ownership.
 
So much being said about about an alledged Luton Town fan being VAR on a Forest v Everton game yet nothing being said about Robert Jones a ref from Merseyside being appointed to ref a big semi final involving Man Utd, why is that? Is it because it doest fit the corruption favoring Man Utd agenda?
 
Withnail said:
It's not the same at all. They're talking in general terms about sporting integrity. If you have bad decisions and repeated human error yes it does undermine the integrity of the sport.

Forest are talking about the integrity of a specific official. They basically called the official corrupt and biased due to the team he supports (or inferred it at best) . I don't know how you don't see the difference.
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We don't know if they are talking about it in general terms. Especially not if you write "...categorised as “significant human error” is also unacceptable" in your statement. They are not accepting human error as explanation so what do they mean?

Nottingham statement were more directly and honest and without any filters. Just out with what was on their mind. Considering those 3 penalties not given and considering that they talked with PGMOL about issue before game (if that is true) I don't blame them. This would not have happened if they took everything into considerations before deciding which referees would be in charge of which games.
 
Dave Smith said:
I don't think we need more refs. Even in the NFL they get things wrong a lot. I feel the problem with football refs is that:

1) They're too protected
2) They seem to have their own agendas
3) They get to hide behind 'clear and obvious'

However, I think these three issues can be solved with having their conversations broadcast live in the ground. For me, the single worst thing we have heard from a ref in recent years was Dean when he said that he didn't tell Taylor he had made a mistake in the Chelsea v Tottenham game (where Cucuarella got full on pulled down by his hair) because Taylor was his mate and he knew the Chelsea fans didn't like him so he didn't want to give them anything.
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I agree with that as well.

I would say though, that one thing the refs do a lot in the NFL (ok, I'm aware it's more stop - start than football) is they do go and look at the screens a lot more on the sidelines. How many times do you see refs do that in the Prem, despite it being available to them?

I just don't get why a decision will be flagged and then then ref himself, 99% of the time, will just stand there waiting for the decision. Go over to the TV screen and at least look at it yourself, then do what you have suggested, which is talk more. But they barely do it.
And, watch it back in real-time, not slow-mo. Actions can always look dubious slowed down to virtual freeze frame, they need to be viewed in context.
 
I think part of the problem with the rules against discussing referee's is the gaslighting aspect of it. Managers and players cant discuss them, clubs are mocked for discussing them, pundits dont want to talk the product down. Referee's have shown a complete inability to recognise and take responsibility for mistakes so it just feels completely opaque and dishonest.
 
The ref for the Luton game this weekend is a Notts County fan... :lol:
 
90 + 5min said:
We don't know if they are talking about it in general terms. Especially not if you write "...categorised as “significant human error” is also unacceptable" in your statement. They are not accepting human error as explanation so what do they mean?

Nottingham statement were more directly and honest and without any filters. Just out with what was on their mind. Considering those 3 penalties not given and considering that they talked with PGMOL about issue before game (if that is true) I don't blame them. This would not have happened if they took everything into considerations before deciding which referees would be in charge of which games.
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There's a massive difference mate. It's bizarre you won't accept it. One was speaking generally and one explicitly mentioned a specific individual and suggested he was corrupt.
 
90 + 5min said:
Did TheFA said anything like this against Liverpool and their statement after Tottenham game? If not, why?

Instead of taking care of obvious problems in Premier League they are looking for other things to concentrate on.
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The Liverpool one was an objective decision that went the wrong way because of a breakdown of the VAR process itself.

Forest are just having a whinge about the kind of subjective decisions that go against teams every week. Not even close to comparable.
 
Zebs said:
The ref for the Luton game this weekend is a Notts County fan... :lol:
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:lol: that’s a disaster for the FA. Change it and Forest ask why the double standards and a precedent is set which goes against their response to Forest.

Leave him in and every action will be scrutinised, too lenient to Luton and there will be complaints the pressure got to him, too harsh on Luton and Luton will be calling it out.
 
Quote from Michael Oliver couple of years ago…

“I never referee Newcastle games. We have to declare if we have an allegiance to any club or if a family member works at a club. You can’t do any match involving that team and I can’t do Sunderland either for obvious reasons.

Because Newcastle are invariably involved in a relegation battle, when you get to March or April, it means I can’t referee anyone around them towards the bottom three. If Newcastle needed a point to survive and the team they were fighting to get above was say Villa, I could t referee Villas games either. I wouldn’t want to, it’s not worth the hassle.”

Surprised Forrest haven’t cited this little quote yet.
 
Gliggs said:
Quote from Michael Oliver couple of years ago…

“I never referee Newcastle games. We have to declare if we have an allegiance to any club or if a family member works at a club. You can’t do any match involving that team and I can’t do Sunderland either for obvious reasons.

Because Newcastle are invariably involved in a relegation battle, when you get to March or April, it means I can’t referee anyone around them towards the bottom three. If Newcastle needed a point to survive and the team they were fighting to get above was say Villa, I could t referee Villas games either. I wouldn’t want to, it’s not worth the hassle.”

Surprised Forrest haven’t cited this little quote yet.
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I imagine that was a very easy comment to make when it meant he wouldn’t be able to ref against the likes of Southampton, Watford, Burnley and Norwich.

It’s a bit different when he’s effectively opting out of matches between United, Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Tottenham and Villa.
 
caid said:
I think part of the problem with the rules against discussing referee's is the gaslighting aspect of it. Managers and players cant discuss them, clubs are mocked for discussing them, pundits dont want to talk the product down. Referee's have shown a complete inability to recognise and take responsibility for mistakes so it just feels completely opaque and dishonest.
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Could not agree more
 
V.O. said:
The Liverpool one was an objective decision that went the wrong way because of a breakdown of the VAR process itself.

Forest are just having a whinge about the kind of subjective decisions that go against teams every week. Not even close to comparable.
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Well, should we really be talking about objective or subjective decisions regarding penalties in that game. Wrong is wrong. However you twist and turn it.
 
Surely every referee grows up supporting a club?
The issue is that if you are a Utd supporter for example, should you be refereeing games involving Liverpool, arsenal, city, Chelsea? Arguably not but who gets to say who are rivals? and things can change as well.
It’s a slippery slope……
 
Jeppers7 said:


hardly an unnatural position for his arms as the attacker plays the ball
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Look at the positioning of the arms of every other player in that photo. Look at the arms of the guy kicking the ball.

How are they deeming these things as an "unnatural" position when literally every footballer making any sort of action or movement in any way has their hands out for balance. The law is the problem here.

The 'unnatural' position is the act of going in for a block or a tackle with your hands behind your back. That's a conscious decision that every player has to train into themselves day after day, because who actually would do that naturally?

It's absolutely ridiculous.
 
roonster09 said:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...-was-told-to-say-he-missed-in-match-incidents
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Thanks. Old then, but still a damning statement.

This is bad too:

According to a report from the Daily Telegraph’s Jim White in 2013, Halsey opted not to take a severance payment of £50,000 from the PGMOL upon retiring from officiating, instead taking on a position with BT Sport. Per the piece, the sum is only issued if the referees agree to a “gagging order” to prevent them discussing their officiating days when they retire.
 
wildflower2007 said:
I agree with that as well.

I would say though, that one thing the refs do a lot in the NFL (ok, I'm aware it's more stop - start than football) is they do go and look at the screens a lot more on the sidelines. How many times do you see refs do that in the Prem, despite it being available to them?

I just don't get why a decision will be flagged and then then ref himself, 99% of the time, will just stand there waiting for the decision. Go over to the TV screen and at least look at it yourself, then do what you have suggested, which is talk more. But they barely do it.
And, watch it back in real-time, not slow-mo. Actions can always look dubious slowed down to virtual freeze frame, they need to be viewed in context.
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The NFL is a very stop start game. That style of refereeing is never going to work in football. We’re already seen the amount of complaints when decisions take a couple of minutes.

My perspective with offsides would be to accept the on pitch decision unless there is a clear and obvious error offside missed. That means space between the two players. I don’t see the point in measuring millimetres to strike a goal off. That has ruined the excitement of football.
 
The Purley King said:
Surely every referee grows up supporting a club?
The issue is that if you are a Utd supporter for example, should you be refereeing games involving Liverpool, arsenal, city, Chelsea? Arguably not but who gets to say who are rivals? and things can change as well.
It’s a slippery slope……
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It’s does seem curious that nearly all the professional referees support lower league clubs or bottom half Premier League sides. Anyone would think they lied so they didn’t lose the chance to ref big games.
 
Josep Dowling said:
The NFL is a very stop start game. That style of refereeing is never going to work in football. We’re already seen the amount of complaints when decisions take a couple of minutes.

My perspective with offsides would be to accept the on pitch decision unless there is a clear and obvious error offside missed. That means space between the two players. I don’t see the point in measuring millimetres to strike a goal off. That has ruined the excitement of football.
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Of course the automated offside system used in the champions league is being implemented in September/October this year so that should speed up and clear up the majority of offside decisions.

Little point delving into space between players and obvious errors with the impending change coming so soon.
 
Pexbo said:
I imagine that was a very easy comment to make when it meant he wouldn’t be able to ref against the likes of Southampton, Watford, Burnley and Norwich.

It’s a bit different when he’s effectively opting out of matches between United, Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Tottenham and Villa.
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Plus, you know, the whole him being on the payroll of the Man City owners of it all.
 
Hang on the VAR didn't check the 3rd penalty incident in the Forrest vs Luton game?
 
RedRocket9908 said:
Just seen this from Mark Halsey, if this is true its not good at all

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Flying high said:
Is that real? And recent?
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roonster09 said:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...-was-told-to-say-he-missed-in-match-incidents
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Well only the first part is true and relates to punishing players for violent conduct. Due to the same type of stupid rules we have now with VAR if the ref said he saw an incident and gave nothing then a player couldn't be banned for elbowing someone in the head.

The worst parts at the end seem entirely made up. However, it does highlight that they've always being wrong-headed about everything and overly precious about defending the referees decision as if he's infallible in some way. It's just feckin weird and leads to bad and/or inconsistent decisions.

EDIT: I've done a google and the image with the quote was created by your man @WeahsCousin on twitter

https://thebearpittv.com/2016/09/mark-halsey-and-the-can-of-worms/
 
Looks like Gabriel is allowed to wrestle players to the ground and get away with it. Did the same with Hojlund and got away with it. I am sure the media will not be talking about it one bit.
 
Bale Bale Bale said:
I don't understand those saying AWB's isn't a penalty. Him bringing his arms back in doesn't negate that they were so wildly out in the first place.

RYDsL4v.png


If you're in the area with your arms out like you're on a surfboard then you're just asking for trouble.

"But Grealish" is not a valid defence.
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Look at every other player in the pictures. They all have their arms out - the kicker more than anyone else. So having your arms out seems to be a "natural position" for most players.
 
wildflower2007 said:
It's the inconsistency with refs decisions that get a lot of people's backs up. I've been saying it for years, but football needs to move on from having just one ref on the pitch, the pace of the game has changed dramatically since the inception of '1 ref and 2 linesmen'.

American Football has dozens of refs dotted around the pitch and sidelines, along with full motion replay systems. They hardly ever get decisions wrong because an important call is analysed to death to make sure its right.

For me, when it comes to handballs in the penalty area, all you have to ask is did the hand/arm change the trajectory of the ball? In the case of AWB it did because it blocked the cross that otherwise would have gone into the 6yrd area.
Likewise, the corner we had just afterwards where the Coventry player jumps up for a header and its clear as day the ball coming towards him in the air, rolls up his arm and off at an angle off his shoulder, is a penalty. His arm is forward of his body and its changed the trajectory of the ball coming in (that could have resulted in a United header on target) For the the exact same reasons AWB is a pentaly, the Coventry one has to be a penalty. It can't be 'either/or'.

Same with Grealish the day before in the semi, free kicks taken by Chelsea, Grealish jumps up, brings his arm in and changes the flight path of the ball, that potentially was heading for goal or another Chelsea player. But the ref and VAR doesn't even look at it.

All 3 should have been penalties in my view, but only 1 was and that's just not acceptable in the top tier of football. Its not good enough.
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They definitely still get it wrong, because these things are always going to be a bit subjective when they're fine margins. The Eagles basically lost a superbowl in 2022 because of a rubbish call late in the game but even then a lot of people thought it was absolutely fine
 
JimmyWils said:
They definitely still get it wrong, because these things are always going to be a bit subjective when they're fine margins. The Eagles basically lost a superbowl in 2022 because of a rubbish call late in the game but even then a lot of people thought it was absolutely fine
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:lol: It was a blatant hold, twice. Even the defensive player flagged said the call was correct.
 
eire-red said:
Look at the positioning of the arms of every other player in that photo. Look at the arms of the guy kicking the ball.

How are they deeming these things as an "unnatural" position when literally every footballer making any sort of action or movement in any way has their hands out for balance. The law is the problem here.

The 'unnatural' position is the act of going in for a block or a tackle with your hands behind your back. That's a conscious decision that every player has to train into themselves day after day, because who actually would do that naturally?

It's absolutely ridiculous.
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Aye, spot on. The rule has drifted from its previous position which was to stop people deliberately handling the ball and gaining an unfair advantage. IFAB and others have lost sight of this in the pursuit of achieving consistency. Stopping the star-man stuff does not need to go to the extremes of punishing every handball where the arm isn't glued to the torso.
 
An update on the Forest situation:
Forest asked for the audio of discussions between Taylor and Attwel for each of the three penalty claims.

PGMOL agrees but only in private.

its just emerged that PGMOL have just said there is no audio for the third claim when Young went through the back of CHO. Despite it flashing up on the screen that Var had checked and cleared Taylor’s on field decision.
 
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