Van Gaal - Philosophy & Tactics

Alock1 said:
Bayern fans, I've seen a good few people around the net talking about how when Van Gaal took the job (or immediately before it) Uli Hoeneß said something along the lines of

'FC Bayern will always play with two strong CFs in a flat 4-4-2 system.'

I can't seem to find a source anywhere, probably because it's English speakers paraphrasing rather than literal translations.

If true, it just shows you the doctrine that Bayern were playing to, thinking about and planning around (transfers etc.). It's crazy when you compare a before Van Gaal to after.
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It is true! I do not think that Hoeneß really knew what he got himself with van Gaal - Heynckes was the one that had recommended him (Heynckes just came back from retirement on the wish of Hoeneß to steady the ship as an interim after Klinsmann got fired - he then got the taste for coaching again and took the job in Leverkusen). I do not think he really wanted to change so much.

But at the end it was just great for the club.
 
Man that knows what he is on about tactically, get him in.

Would be interesting. People keep trying to fit our players in a 433, as has been said numerous times, he doesn't fit players into a particular formation/system, he fits the system to the players. It's the philosophy that doesn't change. So likely it will be same 4231 formation we use now
 
Henrik Larsson said:
There's no such thing as 'the dutch philosophy of total football'. Also there is not really such a thing as 'total football', that's just a term the media introduced in after our brilliant 1974 world cup squad made it to the final, and it has stuck with us since then, popping up every once in a while because it sounds good. We usually laugh at that.

At Bayern, this was a team Louis van Gaal used a lot in his first season, he won the double and made a Champions league final with it. Müller is a poor mans Rooney imho, and Olic is a poor mans Van Persie if you will.


------------------- Van Bommel (Carrick/Fletch/Clev/Fella) ------------ Schweinsteiger (signing) -----------------------



------------------------------------------------ Müller (Rooney) ------------------------------------------------------


Robben (Adnan/Mata) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ribery (Nani/Mata)

---------------------------------------------- Olic (Van Persie) ------------------------------------------------------


Obviously Van Gaal might play in a different set-up with us than with Bayern. But I def. see him creating a system in which both Rooney and van Persie could thrive. Van Gaal's pretty pragmatic in his line-ups by the way, whether you call it 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 or 4-5-1, as long as he uses wingers and the width of the pitch (which he does 99% of the time) he himself calls it 4-3-3.

But basically his philosophy is that he mostly uses the players he has already to create an attacking, dominant side, that has great ball circulation and creates a lot of chances. And as much as he talks about playing good technical football and all, he has stated numerous times over the years that winning, no matter in what way, is number one priority.

Sometimes his teams press high, sometimes when a team parks the bus, he likes to play what he calls 'Provocative Pressing', which means dropping deep and keeping posession mostly in your own half, so teams that park the bus have get lured into going forward a bit more, and then the defensive teams can be hit on the break, that's just one example of what I meant by saying he can be pretty pragmatic.
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The thing is, with that set up, it certainly wouldn't get the most out of Mata and where would Kagawa fit in? Ribery/Robben are incredible players and their pace is a large part of their game. Fair enough Januzaj/Nani have the pace but you can't compare them to Ribery/Robben. I do think that Rooney/RVP would do well in that sort of formation but I just feel our wings would need some serious improvement if you wanted to compare us to that Bayern team.
Obviously Januzaj could very well get to that sort of level within a few years but Nani is far to inconsistent and the other options are Valencia/Young....
 
MkPaul said:
The thing is, with that set up, it certainly wouldn't get the most out of Mata and where would Kagawa fit in? Ribery/Robben are incredible players and their pace is a large part of their game. Fair enough Januzaj/Nani have the pace but you can't compare them to Ribery/Robben. I do think that Rooney/RVP would do well in that sort of formation but I just feel our wings would need some serious improvement if you wanted to compare us to that Bayern team.
Obviously Januzaj could very well get to that sort of level within a few years but Nani is far to inconsistent and the other options are Valencia/Young....
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Pace is overrated when you play a possession based game and you're on the half of the opponent 80% of the time. Iniesta and Silva have played there excellently on club level and for the national team in a possession based set-up. Also did Mata not score in the last Euro finals, playing from the wing? And we've got pacey options for the wings too.

Plus I must say we have such a broad group of players already, that various tactical set-ups are possible, also line-ups that suit Kagawa or whoever to their strengths if they play in the starting line-up that week. So if Kagawa is in better form than say Rooney, he will play Kagawa in a system that fits him. Season will be long as always, so we would need Kagawa, Welbeck, and even Young and Valencia (if we don't get rid of them), need everyone basically.
 
Henrik Larsson said:
Pace is overrated when you play a possession based game and you're on the half of the opponent 80% of the time. Iniesta and Silva have played there excellently on club level and for the national team in a possession based set-up. Also did Mata not score in the last Euro finals, playing from the wing? And we've got pacey options for the wings too.

Plus I must say we have such a broad group of players already, that various tactical set-ups are possible, also line-ups that suit Kagawa or whoever to their strengths if they play in the starting line-up that week. So if Kagawa is in better form than say Rooney, he will play Kagawa in a system that fits him. Season will be long as always, so we would need Kagawa, Welbeck, and even Young and Valencia (if we don't get rid of them), need everyone basically.
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That Bayern system is special for Bayern. You have this special wingers and the Raumdeuter - a Rooney might have similar scoring numbers and a position in the hole but he is not Müller as well as Mata ain't Ribery or Robben etc.

It does not help to copy that system or to fill it with players that just do not have their specialities. Van Gaal first had the players and then took the system - we even were playing a 4-4-2 with diamond at the beginning of the season.

(speed ain't important - but movement is and workrate. And it is not important to beat players 1vs1 if you can beat them 2vs2...)
 
Based on his philosophy and tactics, I think he could go with something like:

De Gea
Rafael - Smalling - Evans - ?
? - Carrick
Januzaj - Rooney - ?
Van Persie​

Defenders

Based on what I've read previously, Van Gaal always likes a ball-playing defender, which is probably why we've been linked with Hummels lately, although I think Evans could do that job for us.


Midfielders

He seems to stress the importance of intelligence in midfield, mentioning the likes of Guardiola, Xavi and De Jong as 'thinkers', which is why I feel he'd love Carrick, as he reads the game tremendously. He just needs a dynamic player next to him who can piece things together for us.

Wingers

I also read in an article that he like's his wingers to stay wide and stretch play, therefore, I doubt we'd see Kagawa or Mata on the wings. At Bayern he went with Robben and Ribery on the wings who hugged the touchline, allowing the no.10 more room to work in. Therefore, I can see him going someone with wingers that will be always looking to beat their man with pace and trickery, such as Januzaj, Nani, Welbeck, Valencia. I do feel we need a winger in the Summer, though, hence the question mark in the line-up above. Probably a replacement for Nani.

This is what Van Gaal had to say about his wingers:

"For the left winger, for example, it is the space between the penalty area and the centre line on the corresponding side of the pitch."
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http://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/2014/4/26/5655302/louis-van-gaal-manchester-united-manager

Number 10

As for the number 10, from what he said, he wants them to be scoring 20-25 goals, making runs in behind the striker. He also has to be defensively good too, which is why I can see him opting for Wayne Rooney, as he's shown he can score goals from the CAM/SS position, and when he's on it, he'll get back and defend for the team. I can actually see him going with Welbeck in this position too.

He also mentions that he doesn't like his second striker to drop too deep, which will mean we'll need a ball playing midfielder to dictate play for us and be our link between midfield and attack. Similar players to Toure, Kroos, Fabregas, Schweinsteiger, etc. Time and time again, whether it be Rooney, Mata, Kagawa, or Welbeck playing behind the forward, due to our lack of invention and drive in midfield, at times, our CAM/SS have had to drop pretty deep. From what Van Gaal's saying, he likes them to stay behind the midfield line, where they can be a threat; either getting it to feet in a dangerous position, or running in behind.


Striker

Van Persie



From what he said, if he was to take over, i'd like to see something like:


De Gea
Rafael - Smalling - Evans - Shaw
Kroos - Carrick
Januzaj - Rooney - Reus
Van Persie​
 
Using Litmanen and Bergkamp as the references is a bit too outdated in my eyes. Back then a number 10 was most often a second striker so a more interesting reference would be who played the number 10 role at Bayern for him.

Not sure if this was the standard tactic they used(even if it states so in the article). So Schweinsteiger is certainly a possession player/midfielder like Mata/Kagawa much more than a goalscoring second forward like Rooney.

12916069093939811.jpeg
 
Annahnomoss said:
Using Litmanen and Bergkamp as the references is a bit too outdated in my eyes. Back then a number 10 was most often a second striker so a more interesting reference would be who played the number 10 role at Bayern for him.

Not sure if this was the standard tactic they used(even if it states so in the article). So Schweinsteiger is certainly a possession player/midfielder like Mata/Kagawa much more than a goalscoring second forward like Rooney.

12916069093939811.jpeg
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That starting formation was a formation during the injury period in 2010/11. When Robben was injured van Gaal used Müller on the right wing. Breno was not really used a lot with van Gaal - he never really adapted to Germany and Tymo was only used as a defender in times when the whole defense was injured. Bayern had up to 10 or 11 injured players then. Like we have told before - van Gaal saw Kroos deeper because of his lack of dynamic - only that Kroos at this time had no defensive sense and wanted to play the 10. And he played Schweinsteiger as a 10 as he was the more dynamic of the two. It just was not his wishing formation. With Robben back on the field Müller was back in the hanging striker formation.
 
This is a MUST read:

Tactical Analysis: Can Louis van Gaal’s tactical philosophy work for Man United?
[paste:font size="5"]by Sriram Manoharan • April 30, 2014 •

“My jaw dropped when I saw Van Gaal’s Ajax play. They did everything a football team should do perfectly in my eyes.”

Pep Guardiola

“When executed properly it is winning football”

Marcelo Bielsa

Footballing Philosophy: A saying that congregates art, high thinking and sport into something that so powerfully symbolizes a manager’s power of thought.

When it comes to legendary managers with the best footballing philosophy, there are many who have influenced the master tacticians of today: Arrigo Sacchi, Bob Paisely, Matt Busby, Nigel Clough, Bill Shankly, Rinus Michels, Johan Cruyff – The list is illustrious. These doyens of the tactics board have influenced the senior stalwarts of today: Marcelo Lippi, Fabio Capello, Vicente del Bosque, Ottmar Hittzfeld, Carlo Ancelotti; who in turn have seen modern tacticians like Pep Guaridola, Jose Mourinho, Marcelo Biesla, Jurgen Klopp, Roberto Martinez and Diego Simeone taking over the mantle.

However, when we make a list of the greatest managers ever, no matter who compiles the list, one manager will always be on it. A grey-haired old Scot with sharpness in tongue, deed and mind, the best man-manager of all time: Sir Alex Ferguson. While the current generation of football fans obsess over false nines, high lines, defensive blocks and inverted wingers, it is often forgotten that a manager with the best tactical nous can’t make millionaires squeal at the mere sight of him without possessing pragmatism, respect, a personal touch and a sense of unwavering respect.

Simply put, David Moyes’ possessed none of the above qualities and was ultimately sacked. His replacement should possess tactical genius, a trophy laden cabinet and the ability to ‘CREATE’ great players, not just buy them. Ryan Giggs may have the most enviable cabinet but is still unproven and long term would be a risky appointment.

So it is only natural that United turn their attentions to a man whose Ajax 1994 side (of Seedorf, van der Sar, de Boer, Blind, Kluivert, Overmars, Litmanen) inspired Sir Alex himself to blood the Class of ’92: The Iron Tulip, The Czar of Alkmaar, the outspoken Dutch Maestro: Louis van Gaal, who describes himself as “I am who I am and I have my own ways. I’m not going to change and I have no desire to” and “If we can strengthen our squad, we’ll buy. But I’m not the kind of coach who just goes out and buys for the sake of it. I’m a coach who wants to – and can – improve players.”

Biesla and Guardiola look upto him. Mourinho learned from him at Barca. His philosophy is an attack-based one, favoring pace down the flanks and relentless ball retention. Ronald de Boer, who played under van Gaal, says that while Johan Cruyff was primarily concerned with style and identity over results, Guardiola related more to van Gaal’s insatiable desire for success.

His Dutch team scored 34 goals in World Cup 2014 qualification: the most in Europe.

For Louis van Gaal, his philosophy is primary and the system is secondary, irrespective of his 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 :

  • Possession: Keep the ball, you win the game
  • Center-backs are as crucial to buildup play as the midfield
  • Pace and width from wingers/wingbacks
  • A midfield must have a volante (CDM), a box-to-box engine and an Enganche (pure #10)
  • Collectief: No player is bigger than the team – a virtue extolled by Sir Alex.
  • Work for the team or leave


His Ajax of 1994 were youthful, talented and full of pace on the flanks. Litmanen provided the cutting edge and dynamism in the #10 role whereas Davids, de Boer and Rijkaard were the perfect blend of brain and brawn.

In 2009, he shaped Bayern around the awesome wing combo of Robbery – Arjen Robben and Franck Ribery whilst fielding two defensive midfielders with a playmaker (Schweinsteiger or Kroos)

For the Netherlands, he has overseen a return to old school Dutch attacking play: the ruthlessness of Robin van Persie up front boosted by the pace of Lens and Robben on the flanks. If not for Strootman’s unfortunate injury, the Dutch would have boasted a midfield three that could threaten Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta at the World Cup. Regardless of that set-back, they have qualified automatically after topping their group, winning nine games and are sure to win many fans with their attacking play in this summer’s showpiece event in Brazil

What would his tactical approach be if he were to take over United?



Van Gaal knows how to improve young players, like Sir Alex improved Ronaldo and Rooney. Van Gaal could make Wilfried Zaha a world beater, turn Januzaj into Giggs v2.0, chisel Nick Powel’s passing, move Kagawa into the hole, make Welbeck score 20 goals a season, fine tune Jones-Smalling, improve Hernandez’s first touch: you get the idea. Given his penchant for promoting youth this all looks possible.

Young, Nani, Cleverley, Evra, Ferdinand will have to be moved on. What he makes of Fellaini, one cannot fathom. But we can’t expect him to do miracles.

Like all van Gaal sides, United will adopt an attacking, exciting Dutch philosophy – in line with the traditions of the club – giving importance to youth, teamwork, discipline and collectief

One constant of van Gaal is his preference for width. Overmars-George, Robben-Ribery and Robben-Lens are all pacey and gifted wing pairs. At United, the present squad has 3 wingers who offer very little in attack: Nani, Young and to a lesser extent, Valencia.

If he goes with Januzaj and Zaha on the wings, he cannot accommodate Kagawa or Mata along with Rooney and van Persie.

United can’t play three number 10’s (Rooney, Mata, Kagawa) and still maintain width by playing two wingers. This is the current problem facing the squad.

In midfield, Toni Kroos would be a welcome world class addition and could be paired with Carrick or Fletcher (if he remains). Fellaini is a bruiser and nothing more. He offers little movement on or off the ball, can’t pass forward and is afraid to get the ball from the center backs to start attacks.

If Shaw is signed, he can learn to make the left back spot his own for the next decade.

United’s midfield woes are not complete if Kroos is signed: Carrick and Fletcher’s spot must have competition from a world class volante – maybe William Carvalho.

His record is unquestionable and there is no better candidate to take over at The Theater of Dreams. After this summer’s World Cup, we can expect a dash of Oranje woven into the Red and White fabric of the biggest football club in the world.
 
Rezyuz said:
3 midfielders, 1 anchor connecting to defense, 1 creative more forward pushing one (mata), 1 allrounder with high defensive and offensive work rate (signing/rooney).

Thats what Van Gaal played at Ajax, Netherlands and pretty much hammers on 24/7. He wanted to do it at Bayern but lacked a good creative midfielder.
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Here is a nice visual of what you are talking about.
I use this as an introduction to my teams when we start working towards learning what our base team shape will be.
 
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Bayern never played like this and it would not have been van-Gaal-like. The played a 4-2-3-1 all season - never such a 4-3-3 with two DMs and a CM. Tymo+Schweinsteiger+van Bommel for sure is a lot too defensive for him. Gomez was not his type of striker - he preferred Olic with Müller in the hole all season. Kroos on the ten like above mentioned was never in his plans either. He played Kroos even behind Schweinsteiger and on the wings. Tymoschchuk is a DM not a MC...

In reality I think that system would not produce goals from open play as it lacks any dynamic starting with the striker.

With Olic and Müller he even did the opposite - a lot movement and workrate in between the wings.
 
The thing with van Gaal is that he doesn't play slow for the sake of playing slow. He likes his teams to exploit spaces ahead if they're available and not waste time keeping the ball when they're available. This is one thing I really like about van Gaal: he doesn't play possession football for the sake of it; he does it for effectiveness and to ensure that we never waste the ball.

What van Gaal will definitely do is make us use the ball efficiently. We won't get any more of the straight long ball forward and pointless crosses. This will set us up perfectly for the future if van Gaal does decide to part ways with us a few years down the line.
 
Do we feel like we're really seeing some of the things we spoke about and Van Gaal spoke about yet?

Definitely seeing those lines. Here's some analysis from Carragher from last night for anyone interested

 
Warlock1 said:
Do we feel like we're really seeing some of the things we spoke about and Van Gaal spoke about yet?

Definitely seeing those lines. Here's some analysis from Carragher from last night for anyone interested

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Yeah definitely. Great analysis from those 2, Carragher in particular. Really liked his bit about the set piece for the United goal, didn't even notice Cahill jumping to try and see the ball.
 
Fantastic analysis. This backs my feeling that we had a great performance and now its evident that we actually pretty good tactically. With a bit better finishing, we could have won it.
 
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