In fairness, if we were playing a genuine 4-3-3 and Van Gaal drilled into him how to perform the role (which he would do), I can see him doing a great job at it.
Van Gaal - Philosophy & Tactics
- Thread starter Alock1
- Start date
I have no doubt, that when it comes to tactics he is one of the best.
His only downfall is just that he perhaps can't win his players at times.
If only we have SAF's motivational skill and his tactical brains rolled into one.
His only downfall is just that he perhaps can't win his players at times.
If only we have SAF's motivational skill and his tactical brains rolled into one.
The beauty being he's already secured the trust of van Persie, a senior player. Included with the fact he's following a man who had alienated half the squad.
I don't really see the big difference between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3. The latter suggests that the wingers have more of an attacking role, maybe, but Welbeck's goal/assist return on the left was awful under Fergie as well as Moyes.
Welbeck's problem has always been his end product. He'll go from Ronaldo to amateur the moment it matters the most. When he plays on the left, he gets significantly fewer chances than he gets as a striker. And thus, he seriously needs to up his effectivity several notches to ever work out as a goalscoring winger. He's still fairly young, so it might happen over time. But personally, I just don't see it. Welbeck for me, is a striker. He should never be anywhere near our starting lineup if he has to play on one of the wings.
Some of his philosophies sound a bit too complex for Wayne. Mata's intelligence and better English may give him the upper hand.
He's doing alright if the players' trust and buy his tactics (see Ajax / Barca round I)
kinda hard to comment on his 2nd barca stint, them barca lots are one hell of a primadona beast back then. But all and all, We can't really be that bad with him on the squad if the players really knuckle down (which I'm sure they will, because going mutiny on 2 consecutive times won't be a smart thing to do)
IIRC, FWIW, Van Gaal loves to employ a single striker with 2 wide men, and not a winger, but a pure wide forward with different characteristing than simply a winger
Which is great for Welbeck
I reckon it would be something to look out for personally, I certainly think he'll try and fit Welbeck somewhere. Homegrown, quick, hardworking and technical, he's a Van Gaal wet dream.
He's still gonna be at the end of way fewer chances than he would as a lone striker. And let's be honest; Welbeck is not exactly brilliant at assisting. For all his pace, power and technique, scoring goals and running with the ball is what he does best. And while he is a goalscorer, he wastes too many chances for me. It's gonna be really frustrating to watch him waste the few chances he gets coming in from the left.
He's a bigger goal threat than Kagawa, Mata and Januzaj, but these three are vastly superior when it comes to playmaking and assisting. I'd pick all three ahead of Welbeck, regardless of setup.
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He got some skills (probably not finishing though), and good managers like Van Gaal will employ him accordingly. Welbeck will never be his Kluivert, but his 433 system and total football will I'm sure give Welbeck so many options to showcase his talent.
I don't think Welbeck simply only wanted to be a goalscorer, if we give him a proper role that isnt' just square pegging round holes like we did this last few years, I'm sure he'll be more than happy. He might not get his favored CF role, but if he can really does a good job being a wide forward, that is an acclaim by itself.
Put it simply, we will give him a proper position, not a makeshift position. A position that is designed to suit him personally. Kinda like a cheaper custom made suit, but his personal suit, instead of borrowing Rooney's Versace once in a while.
Mata / Kagawa will probably be his Litmanen though.
Compared to this season and last he'll get far more chances if our play in the attacking third is much more penetrative and incisive.
Hmm... Judging by what I'm reading so far, we might see something like this next season:
---- Carrick - New CM ---
Welbeck - Mata - Kagawa
-----------RVP ---------
I don't mind the look of this. It's also priceless to picture Rooney's face.
I hope we sign Shaw or Coentrao. We really need a good leftback for this setup.
---- Carrick - New CM ---
Welbeck - Mata - Kagawa
-----------RVP ---------
I don't mind the look of this. It's also priceless to picture Rooney's face.
I hope we sign Shaw or Coentrao. We really need a good leftback for this setup.
I'm not sure on this one.. Generally, he seems to have been liked by the majority of players he's managed and he's managed a lot of stars. But because he was walking into clubs where star players were already there, or he wasn't the man deciding who to bring in, there was far more chance of a bust up than with Fergie.
Fergie hand picked all his players, and often you felt he avoided stars because of their nature to not want to sacrifice for the team. At Barca, Rivaldo wanted to play in the middle whereas Van Gaal wanted him on the left, at Bayern Ribery (known to be ill disciplined at the time) was the big upset.
At United, Fergie had the power that most managers don't, and was able to dispense of any players who wanted control over the manager, and I don't think that was possible for Van Gaal at his clubs. Plus, Fergie was able to avoid these situations arising so often as he had full power over who came in as a player.
Van Gaal wasn't able to say 'Rivaldo won't play where I want him to? Easy; sell' like Fergie could.
Rooney is done if Van Gaal is the manager. He won't tolerate Rooney's roaming of the entire field doing whatever he wants with ill regards to the tactics.
Mad Winger, I think Van Gaal could easily be the making of Welbeck. A shit load of brilliant talent has come through Van Gaal - he loves turning players careers around and putting faith in talent.
Welbeck has all the tools necessary, there is no reason that he couldn't be a successful winger in my eyes if he knew what to do when he gets in behind.
I think the club have identified a more modern winger as a target too. So that helps. But I think he'd be able to work fine with classical wingers too - he talks about how the team needs to keep width so that the opposition has to organize with width, which then offers more space in the middle.
I think Rooney does have it in him not to roam or drop to be fair. In Van Gaal's team, we'd rarely have to worry about keeping the possession and him getting plenty of touches without needing to come looking for it.
Welbeck has all the tools necessary, there is no reason that he couldn't be a successful winger in my eyes if he knew what to do when he gets in behind.
I think the club have identified a more modern winger as a target too. So that helps. But I think he'd be able to work fine with classical wingers too - he talks about how the team needs to keep width so that the opposition has to organize with width, which then offers more space in the middle.
I think Rooney does have it in him not to roam or drop to be fair. In Van Gaal's team, we'd rarely have to worry about keeping the possession and him getting plenty of touches without needing to come looking for it.
Why? Doesn't he allow freedom to roam to his players? He is said to be an advocate of total football where players switch positions several times in the match. Even in this post on the second page of this thread, as mentioned and you can see in the video that his winger came inside to the midfield. His secondary striker dropped deep to almost the holding midfielder position (something which Rooney likes to do). If he is proponent of total football, I don't think he doesn't want people to roam. He surely doesn't say mindless roaming without taking a specific position relative to other teammates and other players readjusting too. People like to joke about Rooney's perceived lack of intelligence. But I think he is a very clever footballer tactically and he would do great for Van Gaal. Rooney is only hampered by his lack of consistency, otherwise he is a top footballer in every aspect.
He's able to do it, but in the big games, where we need a striker to stretch the defence and not get dragged too deep when he doesn't get the ball, Rooney is terrible at it. There's a reason why Welbeck makes us look more effective in the big games, and a player of Rooney's calibre not being the first choice in the big games is just going to cause tension within player and manager.
Well I think Van Persie is the striker to do that. Rooney would most likely be considered for the number 10 role.
Rooney was terrific at the start of the season when he felt he needed to prove himself to Moyes. As the season went on, I think the respect he had for DM began to wane and his performances followed the same trajectory. I reckon that Rooney was similarly under par at times during Fergie's reign, purely because he got comfortable being the golden child in the squad. If van Gaal gets appointed as manager, there'll be no room for complacency. Ever. Either Wayne will want to leave or he'll want to redouble his efforts to prove he's a winner. I'd bet on the latter. He's the sort of character who might want to leave for money/silverware, but wouldn't want to part ways as a failure.
Which is why I think it's the end of Rooney. He'll only be considered there till Van Gaal gets annoyed with how often Rooney misplaces passes. And Sir Alex and Moyes has tried and failed with the RVP/Rooney pairing, unless Van Gaal has a secret to make them gel, the experiment won't last long.
With any luck Van Gaal will see how overrated Welbeck is and will find someone better to fit his system
Rooney's roaming is mindless though. You often see him so far back at times that he's practically playing left back for Evra. He's clearly an intelligent player, but he fails to use it on the pitch frequently, you can see it with his obsession with him attempting to chip the ball for a goal every single game despite his low success rate with it.
I honestly think Rooney was overrated at the start. He ran a lot especially against Chelsea and started getting praise.
Strength is not what you need, new glasses maybe.
Great? really? How does your scale work then if Welbeck is great. What is Messi then?
I want to differ. Rooney's roaming isn't mindless. He clearly sees the need to get the ball forward which our current midfield is incapable of doing so many times (we can see that too). So he makes those runs in the deep and often more than not succeeds with it by spraying it wide to Valencia/Young or getting it up himself with dribbles and short passes. Even Van Persie did that last season. This is just what it is with Manchester United's current midfield woes. You won't find him doing that with England.
As far as the attempts to chip go, that is just a quirk that players have. I won't call that unintelligent. Nor does he do that a lot or does it when his team is in jeopardy and is need of a goal.
Rooney has so many dimensions to his game that with a tactician like Van Gaal, he can become good at the dutch philosophy of total football.
It was a condition of Van Gaal's return to Barcelona in 2002 that he wanted Rivaldo out because of the clashes they'd had in his previous stint. Didn't exactly work out given how dreadful Barcelona performed that season, but he certainly had the opportunity to exercise significant power.
Amen to that, he had Moyes by the balls and he knows it, Rooney can now either get involved or sob on the bench, at least we cant be threatened with a contract about to expire anymore.
Its a complete Myth that Van Gaal does not get on with players.
It has been reported many times by ex players, fellow coaches and current players that he operates a completely open door policy by which players can approach him at any time with concerns and needs. What is also reported is that even though he listens to others he is very very sure of his own agenda and therefore may fall out with "power players". Him and Rooney would have to have a good sit down but he would flawlessly fit in with Giggs, Scholes and the rest of the 92.
He has a reputation of looking internally before pulling the trigger on huge signings, BUT when he does he makes absolutely sure the players are of the highest standard. He has nutured many of todays greats including one Toni Kroos.
You can almost guarantee he would sell Fellaini, Cleverley, perhaps Valencia, Nani for their inconsistency and tendency to be one trick ponies of which his teams have very little space for. The only other issue that scares me is he may deem fit to sell Mata
It has been reported many times by ex players, fellow coaches and current players that he operates a completely open door policy by which players can approach him at any time with concerns and needs. What is also reported is that even though he listens to others he is very very sure of his own agenda and therefore may fall out with "power players". Him and Rooney would have to have a good sit down but he would flawlessly fit in with Giggs, Scholes and the rest of the 92.
He has a reputation of looking internally before pulling the trigger on huge signings, BUT when he does he makes absolutely sure the players are of the highest standard. He has nutured many of todays greats including one Toni Kroos.
You can almost guarantee he would sell Fellaini, Cleverley, perhaps Valencia, Nani for their inconsistency and tendency to be one trick ponies of which his teams have very little space for. The only other issue that scares me is he may deem fit to sell Mata
I'd bet money on him keeping Cleverley and Cleverley becoming a good squad player for us under him.
He's pretty good technically, he just hasn't got the confidence or ability to take responsibility or show purpose. His main weaknesses are definitely things that a top coach could improve.
He's pretty good technically, he just hasn't got the confidence or ability to take responsibility or show purpose. His main weaknesses are definitely things that a top coach could improve.
I agree with this. I think he would actually shine under someone like Van Gaal, likewise with Welbeck. A hell of a lot more than Fellini, Young, Nani etc..
Christ no. Lets hope he moves to Everton. Maybe Martinez was the only coach who could get him to perform
Out of the options that seem to be available, he seems to be the most interesting to me.
I can really see Januzaj thriving under the coaching of van Gaal. Considering his trust in youth, I can see him making Januzaj an integral part of his team.
"Power players" you say, yet you go on to name-check Rooney but inexplicably leave the "Class of '92" brigade out of it. Bizarre.
The "Class of '92" wield as much power in our club that arguably Ferguson. The Glazers know that keeping this lot onside in their only ticket left to play with the supporters. If they're gone, the supporters will feel the soul of the club is gone too. There'll be absolutely no holding back against the Glazers then in terms of supporters venting their anger.
The "Class of '92" know this, too. Why else would Giggs leak that he wants to quit the club in recent weeks rather than stay on and work with Moyes? Why else would Danny Welbeck be encouraged by senior players to go public with his desire to leave rather than stay under Moyes? It's all political leveraging and the "Class of '92" know how strong their hand is at Manchester United Football Club.
Rooney? Ha! Just because he's ur most high profile player and buddies with Giggs and co. doesn't make him that powerful. Mistaking proximity to power as actual power is a foolhardy practice. Just ask Moyes.
There's no such thing as 'the dutch philosophy of total football'. Also there is not really such a thing as 'total football', that's just a term the media introduced in after our brilliant 1974 world cup squad made it to the final, and it has stuck with us since then, popping up every once in a while because it sounds good. We usually laugh at that.
At Bayern, this was a team Louis van Gaal used a lot in his first season, he won the double and made a Champions league final with it. Müller is a poor mans Rooney imho, and Olic is a poor mans Van Persie if you will.
------------------- Van Bommel (Carrick/Fletch/Clev/Fella) ------------ Schweinsteiger (signing) -----------------------
------------------------------------------------ Müller (Rooney) ------------------------------------------------------
Robben (Adnan/Mata) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ribery (Nani/Mata)
---------------------------------------------- Olic (Van Persie) ------------------------------------------------------
Obviously Van Gaal might play in a different set-up with us than with Bayern. But I def. see him creating a system in which both Rooney and van Persie could thrive. Van Gaal's pretty pragmatic in his line-ups by the way, whether you call it 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 or 4-5-1, as long as he uses wingers and the width of the pitch (which he does 99% of the time) he himself calls it 4-3-3.
But basically his philosophy is that he mostly uses the players he has already to create an attacking, dominant side, that has great ball circulation and creates a lot of chances. And as much as he talks about playing good technical football and all, he has stated numerous times over the years that winning, no matter in what way, is number one priority.
Sometimes his teams press high, sometimes when a team parks the bus, he likes to play what he calls 'Provocative Pressing', which means dropping deep and keeping posession mostly in your own half, so teams that park the bus have get lured into going forward a bit more, and then the defensive teams can be hit on the break, that's just one example of what I meant by saying he can be pretty pragmatic.
The man is a legend, just appoint him. Total football.
This
Nah Van Gaal will play with the arrow pointing backwards. more like
DDG
Rafael - Evans - Jones - Signing
Signing
Mata - Rooney
Januzaj - RvP - Nani
Rafael - Evans - Jones - Signing
Signing
Mata - Rooney
Januzaj - RvP - Nani
Now THATS a team, one thing Id change, the left attacking option which by all means could be Cavani or Reus depending on who you believe.
One midfielder?