Van Dijk is lacking in ball playing ability? Wtf mate? He's amazing with the ball at his feet. Pings pinpoint 60 yards diagonals for fun.
Van Dijk revisited
- Thread starter Pexbo
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Van Dijk is lacking in ball playing ability? Wtf mate? He's amazing with the ball at his feet. Pings pinpoint 60 yards diagonals for fun.
I won’t pretend I’m old enough to watch football in the 90s but this century he’s taller, faster, stronger, more dominant in the air and better on the ball than any defender I’ve witnessed. All while playing 40 metres from his own goal for the team with the most attacking full backs in football.
Everyone has already mentioned who i was gonna say are the best I have ever seen (Baresi and Maldini, alongside others like Stam, Cannavaro, Nesta, etc) but I genuinely think, and this could be looking at it through green tinted glasses, if Paul McGrath didn't have the demons he had and hadn't knees made from biscuit, he would be in the conversation. His performance against Italy in Giants Stadium during USA 94 still ranks as one of the best individual performances I have ever seen. He made a young Phil Babb look potentially world class on occasions, THATS how good McGrath was.
I think Owen's comments sum this up too. His argument is he cannot imagine anyone being any better. Therefore his GOAT is limited to who he has experienced in his lifetime and what has been in front of his face in the Premier League. That's such a narrow take on the history of the game and the many incredible centre-halves who came before him.
Yeah and long passes are the only measurement of ball playing ability? Then Boateng should also be considered among the all time greats, he could also do that.Van Dijk is lacking in ball playing ability? Wtf mate? He's amazing with the ball at his feet. Pings pinpoint 60 yards diagonals for fun.
How about short passes and creative interplay with teammates, and I am not even talking about dribbling ability and shooting technique.
Beckenbauer and Baresi are considered among the Top 5 (Top 20) of all time (not only defenders) because of that abilities. That is van Dijk's competition and he falls short.
I don't think this season he is at his best. He looks slow but he has very good game reading capability and that keeps him out of trouble most of the time (sign of very good players).
Everyone gave stick to TAA for 2nd goal but for 1st goal VDV was too slow and let Dia steal the ball easily.
I felt Matip is much better than VDV this season.
Everyone gave stick to TAA for 2nd goal but for 1st goal VDV was too slow and let Dia steal the ball easily.
I felt Matip is much better than VDV this season.
VVD is literally good at all those things.
He had some amazing dribbles and goals for Celtic too.
You would not find him misplacing short passes or giving away possession.
He's very technically gifted for a CB.
He's probably not even the best Dutch centre back of all time yet.
Van Dijk has it all as a defender, look at the high line they are able to play, look at the football they play, look at the attacking football they play. Look at the shite football they played when he was out injured. The whole system stems from him. Try playing that way with Maguire instead. So you look at the pace, the physicality, the height, the passing, the leadership. It's everything you'd want from a centre back. Top 5 best central defenders this century I would say. Best ever, it's hard to look beyond the likes of Beckenbauer and Baresi, but Van Djik has that extra physicality on them both, if not the marauding runs into midfield and the creativity.
Evans was with vidic for that record if I remember correctly.
Or Liverpool likely as Alan Hansen says "hi."
I'd argue he is a better 1 vs 1 defender than Baresi and Beckenbauer. He is also bigger, stronger and faster than them.
I am not saying he should be regarded higher than them, but when you say he can only get to the all time 2nd tier of defenders because of dribbling ability, shooting technique and ball playing ability, can we then really consider Messi, Pele or Maradona as GOATS because they then have to be also measured by tackles, clearances, interceptions and so on.
Nesta aside, I think he's the best centerback since Baresi.
Never seen a defender like him who actually has everything. Height, physique, technique, pace, positioning, anticipation, leadership.
We've had some great defenders in the past and he's easily our best ever.
Never seen a defender like him who actually has everything. Height, physique, technique, pace, positioning, anticipation, leadership.
We've had some great defenders in the past and he's easily our best ever.
Exactly. Everything these days has to be the GOAT.
Hansen was top quality but if you think Liverpool fans rate him higher I reckon you're caught in anti-recency bias.
Virgil is just better. An incredibly special player.
Who needs Liverpool fans drooling on the board when we’ve got ‘United’ fans?
I've seen them both in the flesh. I'm not fussed what some of the Liverpool fans think.
Yup. You go by what you've seen. I saw Hansen in his pomp. Others here might have seen Bobby Moore et al.
Who is our best center back in your opinion? I actually do think it's him. The pairing of Stam and Frank de Boer was better than Van Dijk and De Vrij or Van Dijk and De Ligt though in my opinion.
I don't especially like Van Dijk though, he comes across as artificially laid back to the point of arrogance.
VvD has been bailed out by Alisson all season. GOAT defender? Give me a break.
Isn't he dutch?
Eh, yes?
This is his third full season for Liverpool, when accounting for injuries right? Let's all calm down a bit with the GOAT talk.
He's really good, but I'm not seeing anything Rio, Vidic, Terry or Kompany didn't do over 7, 8 or 9 seasons with their clubs. He is also well short of each of their trophy hauls.
He's really good, but I'm not seeing anything Rio, Vidic, Terry or Kompany didn't do over 7, 8 or 9 seasons with their clubs. He is also well short of each of their trophy hauls.
He absolutely shits on Kompany
Stop it. He has faced nobody to be mentioned with them.
You'd argue that based on his epic encounters with a host of elite forwards? It's not a good argument to make unless you know what others faced and how they were rated. Not names to throw out there casually.
Youre point is a fair one but he has faced Mbappe Haaland Messi Ronaldo Lewandowski Benzema Aguero Kane.
Obviously the best CB in the world right now and if you're talking about peak years then has an argument for being the best CB in PL history.
However, as someone said above, that peak is effectively just three full seasons at Liverpool thus far. As compared to someone like Ferdinand say, who was at United for something like 12 seasons in total? Think we have to see VVD last for several more seasons at Liverpool before we weigh up his overall impact and standing.
As for the greatest of all time, I'm not sure how you'd even weigh that up given how much the game has changed over the years. But however you do it, having VVD as the GOAT based on three seasons is madness.
However, as someone said above, that peak is effectively just three full seasons at Liverpool thus far. As compared to someone like Ferdinand say, who was at United for something like 12 seasons in total? Think we have to see VVD last for several more seasons at Liverpool before we weigh up his overall impact and standing.
As for the greatest of all time, I'm not sure how you'd even weigh that up given how much the game has changed over the years. But however you do it, having VVD as the GOAT based on three seasons is madness.
He's faced Kane this season, the same one he is being hailed as something outrageous and he might encounter Benzema in the final. Did he ever face Ronaldo whilst being considered this or that?
It's not the time to be hailing him as some god amongst men when not facing any monsters of the game.
He faced Ronaldo in the CL final, no? A Ronaldo much closer to his prime than now, Mbappe Neymar Lewandowski Haaland all close to their prime as well. VVD was already considered arguably the best CB in the league at Southampton in reality. I think people will always look back more fondly on past eras naturally when judging players anyways.
VVD isn’t the GOAT, but after Nesta he is in the conversation alongside Ferdinand as the best CB of the last couple decades just based on characteristics alone, many great defenders of the past have weaknesses he simply doesn’t have in his game. He is like McGrath without the mental health and drinking issues.
I'd say he's drawn alongside Rio as the best defender the Premier League has seen. Modern defenders are so divisive but personally post Nesta/Rio it's only really Thiago Silva who matches him, although I think there's a case for Godin for his massive influence as a completely different type of defender with Atletico.
The assessment goes by how he did against them, which is what has defenders hailed - who you go up against, what their level is and how you handle that/them is what sets the tone with everything else falling into place, as it should. In a season where he has faced 'no one' it makes little sense for him to be even discussed in any conversation about the greatest of all time. I think the best example of such a CB's repute going through the roof (well being put in an extension in said roof) was when an aged Nesta came up against a monstrous Messi and was immaculate. That's the kind of elevation I am referring to.
I think any top player doing truly special things is held up to the same esteem as anyone who has gone before them; it's not nostalgia, and if anything, these legends of the past are being summarily downplayed as time goes by.
He has the attributes, does he have the body of work? Playing a high line and doing well is great and all, but it's essentially against a bunch of nobodies, which adds perspective as he's not containing prime versions of truly elite forwards whilst doing so, which would be heralded in a completely different light.
I'm not against this view, as his attributes certainly put him on par with Rio, in fact, above him for the aerial prowess, but Rio's body of work, and against who he did it, easily surpasses VVD's, which is where the great divide is between them at the moment.
Still, I'd have no issue with him being in the PL all time xi next to your man.
There's definitely a lack of great strikers about these days compared to previous years but you can't really hold that against Van Dijk and there's still plenty more football for him to play over the years.
You have to in such a discussion where those he's up against those who walked the walk against some of the greatest players to have played the game. As I said in my first post, it's never an athletes' fault when they are in a weak era, but it doesn't matter in the grand scheme when up against those who weren't. If he doesn't have names on his resume, his body of work will have to be stratospheric.
It’s true that he hasn’t faced the quality of strikers previous generations faced, but it’s swings and roundabouts. Defenders from older eras didn’t have to deal with wide forwards who made diagonal runs all game. The best strikers today play wide.
He’s had good performances against all those players I named though that’s the point, Ronaldo Mbappe Haaland Aguero Kane etc.
Certainly the acid test for any defender who wants to be considered amongst the best of all time is how they have fared against the absolute best. I take your point about the calibre of what Rio and Van Dijk have faced, although I don't think the margin between @Righteous Steps list and what Rio has bossed in his time is that wide. The best attackers in the world around 2004-2008 would be Henry, Shevchenko, Kaka, Drogba, Eto'o, Torres and Villa. Arguably they're a bit better than what Van Dijk has faced, but equally Rio didn't always come out of those encounters covered in glory either.
Of course earlier in his career he faced Real's Galacticos which included post-injury Ronaldo and didn't really handle them, so I don't think that works in his favour. He helped shut down Rijkaard's Barcelona in 07/08 with a very impressive display, but a central Messi scored winners against him in 2009 and 2011. While over the course of his career he's played against many of the greats, I don't think he's dominated the best forwards of his generation any more than Van Dijk has in his. While rating Rio very highly, I think - like Van Dijk - his CV is not quite as strong as Baresi, Nesta, Scirea, Figueroa, etc in shutting out the greatest of all time.
Is good the same as epic, because that's what I'm referring to. Contests for the ages he will be remembered by? Not just games he was part of, but games where he shone against the best.
The issue with him isn't doubt that could happen, it's that it has happened for others and it is more the reason why they are regarded as they are before other feats of theirs are even brought to the table. Their names were effectively made off the back of who they matched up against and how they performed in those contests. Baresi is seen as the best organiser of a backline there's ever been, but that doesn't trump what he did in one on one contests, and it's a running theme for this level of CB seen as the best of all time.
Kohler is another one whose name is made off of what he did against the very best. Even if VVD has superior attributes, he's done nothing to be ranked above him because the former was a monster when up against the elite.
But it's still superior to VVD's, and he has clean sheet records and CL records on top of that, which is the point here, really. As I said previously, in terms of raw attributes, VVD even has Rio beat and may well be the archetype what is optimal, but his body of work is still lacking.
VVD coming through in a time of less [brilliance], has to do more to offset that, if he's going to be thrown into the loftiest of discussions. He also has nothing at the international level, which is another mark against him.