Van Dijk revisited

thegregster said:
He is a top class CB. But Liverpool control games. Their CB don't get tested too often. Leicester only really created two situations last night where they looked like they could score. Even last season once they put Fabinho back in DM and the attack found form the likes of Nat Phillips was able to do a job for them.
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Yes and No in your comment

Liverpool control games

First you're right about this statement,Liverpool control games in nearly every single matches for sure.But I would say Liverpool plays very high defensive line when Van Dijk is on the field. A lot of teams in EPL know this strategy and then sometimes they explode Liverpool's high-line by fast counter-attacking like Atletico Madrid or a lot of teams in EPL.So,like I have said before all teams in this blue planet want to explode Liverpool's highline.Having Van Dijk on the field is very important in term of offside-control and commanding other defenders like Trent,Robert or Matip(who isn't excellent in this department).Another one when he checks offside wrong,he must sprints follow

Full-backs

Liverpool is famously known for their notorious full backs. Both Trent and Robertson are super attacking full backs.Virgil plays at LCB,so when Robertson doesn't track down,who go to cover the area of lb position....the answer is Van Dijk.He meets a lot of wingers in one game for sure.

Klopp's system
First I would say that Liverpool isn't City that always make tactical fouls when they can't recover the ball.Their statictics of tactical fouls are so much different between Liverpool and Manchester City due to a lot of factors and in tactical details but I won't tell this comment.Liverpool and City are using high pressing strategies and high defensive line but their game details are so much different.

-Klopp set pressing system for high tempo attacking phase or counter attacking,Guardiola pressing as a method to restart their attack and regain their possesions.
-Pep's system is so much better in term of defensive and midfielders organization than Klopp's system.
-Pep's system uses more tactical fouls more than Klopp's system.
-Guardiola always uses more man oriented pressing,Klopp is about more like pressing traps and then counter attack(a lot similar to Bayern Munich).
-Klopp's attacking games are faster than Guardiola's attacking games and they use more counter-attacking strategies than Guardiola's games.Or in the other hand you can call that Klopp uses more counterpressing more effectively.
-City's midfield players are better on the ball and probably have more posession than Liverpool midfield players.

So,Man City uses tactical fouls more to stop opponents,have better organization,more possesion system team system and less counter attacking team.These factors are very important factors to make City's defenders are tested by any other opponents less than any teams include Liverpool in EPL.On the other hand Liverpool are more counter-attacking team,faster tempo,uses less tactical fouls(very important factors),high defensive line,worse organization especially in midfielder.So,these factors make Liverpool defenders(include VVD) and Alisson are tested by opponents more than City.

Liverpool high defensive line make Van Dijk have to do a lot of defending jobs(more than City's defenders for sure) in one game.VVD role is so important in LFC.
IMHO,Liverpool should uses more tactical fouls in their games.
 
I think your post ignores the fact that Klopp favours hard workers or combatants if you like in midfield compared to Pep who prefers to have technical players in this department which means that there is an aweful lot that Gini (before he left), Hendo, Fabinho, etc do before the action gets to VVD. Both managers require all their players to press which helps both defenses but Liverpool midfielders prioritize combating opposition players to doing the creative work which TAA and Robbo are tasked with.

For City the likes of Gundogan and co while they press, their emphasis is on getting something to the final third, more so than Liverpool. Also City tactical fouls and this is part of their plan but the main culprit is Fernandinho much more than any other player of theirs.
 
Bearded One said:
I think your post ignores the fact that Klopp favours hard workers or combatants if you like in midfield compared to Pep who prefers to have technical players in this department which means that there is an aweful lot that Gini (before he left), Hendo, Fabinho, etc do before the action gets to VVD. Both managers require all their players to press which helps both defenses but Liverpool midfielders prioritize combating opposition players to doing the creative work which TAA and Robbo are tasked with.

For City the likes of Gundogan and co while they press, their emphasis is on getting something to the final third, more so than Liverpool. Also City tactical fouls and this is part of their plan but the main culprit is Fernandinho much more than any other player of theirs.
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Yep,you’re right in this department Klopp favours hard working midfielders with great athleticism like Hendo and Fabinho.Even Gini I would say his durability is unmatched too.I’m forget it,thx mate.
 
General_Elegancia said:
Yes and No in your comment

Liverpool control games

First you're right about this statement,Liverpool control games in nearly every single matches for sure.But I would say Liverpool plays very high defensive line when Van Dijk is on the field. A lot of teams in EPL know this strategy and then sometimes they explode Liverpool's high-line by fast counter-attacking like Atletico Madrid or a lot of teams in EPL.So,like I have said before all teams in this blue planet want to explode Liverpool's highline.Having Van Dijk on the field is very important in term of offside-control and commanding other defenders like Trent,Robert or Matip(who isn't excellent in this department).Another one when he checks offside wrong,he must sprints follow

Full-backs

Liverpool is famously known for their notorious full backs. Both Trent and Robertson are super attacking full backs.Virgil plays at LCB,so when Robertson doesn't track down,who go to cover the area of lb position....the answer is Van Dijk.He meets a lot of wingers in one game for sure.

Klopp's system
First I would say that Liverpool isn't City that always make tactical fouls when they can't recover the ball.Their statictics of tactical fouls are so much different between Liverpool and Manchester City due to a lot of factors and in tactical details but I won't tell this comment.Liverpool and City are using high pressing strategies and high defensive line but their game details are so much different.

-Klopp set pressing system for high tempo attacking phase or counter attacking,Guardiola pressing as a method to restart their attack and regain their possesions.
-Pep's system is so much better in term of defensive and midfielders organization than Klopp's system.
-Pep's system uses more tactical fouls more than Klopp's system.
-Guardiola always uses more man oriented pressing,Klopp is about more like pressing traps and then counter attack(a lot similar to Bayern Munich).
-Klopp's attacking games are faster than Guardiola's attacking games and they use more counter-attacking strategies than Guardiola's games.Or in the other hand you can call that Klopp uses more counterpressing more effectively.
-City's midfield players are better on the ball and probably have more posession than Liverpool midfield players.

So,Man City uses tactical fouls more to stop opponents,have better organization,more possesion system team system and less counter attacking team.These factors are very important factors to make City's defenders are tested by any other opponents less than any teams include Liverpool in EPL.On the other hand Liverpool are more counter-attacking team,faster tempo,uses less tactical fouls(very important factors),high defensive line,worse organization especially in midfielder.So,these factors make Liverpool defenders(include VVD) and Alisson are tested by opponents more than City.

Liverpool high defensive line make Van Dijk have to do a lot of defending jobs(more than City's defenders for sure) in one game.VVD role is so important in LFC.
IMHO,Liverpool should uses more tactical fouls in their games.
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General_Elegancia said:
Yep,you’re right in this department Klopp favours hard working midfielders with great athleticism like Hendo and Fabinho.Even Gini I would say his durability is unmatched too.I’m forget it,thx mate.
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I can read the sarcasm in your post but when you look at Liverpool system, it is their full backs that are tasked primarily with creating. The midfielders are there to protect the defense and do all the dirty job. I know Fabinho is a technically gifted player and hardly looks anything like heavy metal but he’s the exception.

Look at Gini - he was box to box - always challenging, always chasing. Look at Hendo, even though he plays some good passes upfront, he’s tasked more with defending, closing down and chasing. Same with Milner.

City on the other hand have attacking midfielders playing like central midfielders so clearly there’s a difference here.
 
Lentwood said:
The standards defenders are held to nowadays are impossibly high. I blame the fact that we now get 20 replays and 15mins of analysis for every goal conceded. Of course the CBs can be highlighted for virtually every goal that goes in due to the nature of their position. Of course there is always a different action they COULD have taken.

Take van Dijk last night. Yeah, he could have stepped out and engaged Lookman, but Lookman was travelling at pace and from his body shape, had set himself to shoot across the goal. In that split micro-second, you see van Dijk decides to plant his body and make a barrier, blocking the shot into the far corner. At the last minute, Lookman whips the ball nearpost and scores.

So yeah, you can say vVD could have engaged...but if he had given a penalty away the same pundits would have said "no need to dive in/going nowhere". Yeah he could have set-up to block a nearpost shot, but the percentage call based on Lookman's body shape in that split moment was the shot was going far post. Sky rarely go back and analyse all the mundane tackles, blocks and headers defenders make, because they are so outcome-orientated it'a untrue.

Another example...the most hated player on this forum...our captain, Harry Maguire. Against Newcastle, ASM shapes to shoot and Maguire covers, again, all at high-speed (and whilst instructing Dalot to cover the outside run). ASM doesn't shoot and takes another step. 99/100 this would leave him unable to get a shot off as you can see, ASM is now off-balance and is starting to fall away from the ball. Maguire would have known this was the low-percentage option, just like vVD knew the near-post shot was the low percentage option. Somehow, ASM managed to generate enough power and accuracy to get a shot on target and for it to nestle right into the corner of the net. I actually think if ASM tried that again 100 times, he wouldn't manage it again. So yes, Maguire ends up looking bad, because he goes with the first dummy and over-covers...but that is the percentage play. If ASM hits that early and scores, Maguire gets pelters again.

I'd love to see attackers held to these standards. CBs are measured in freeze-frames and micro-seconds. The likes of Rashford and Bruno (and even players like KdB) run about making mistake after mistake, giving the ball away in bad areas, overhitting passes, taking wild-shots, making poor decisions etc...yet eventually something comes off and they score/assist and they are a "genius" again.

Who would be a CB in modern football? Forced to defend halfway up the pitch, absolutely must be fantastic on the ball and be able to pass out against a press AND any slight mistake is pounced on. It's ridiculous.
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feck right off with your sensible posting. This isn’t the place for that. You’re either the best defender the world has ever seen, and nigh on invincible, or you’re a worthless piece of shit who should be hounded out of your club, home, marriage, country, and probably give up football altogether. There is no space in the middle ground, and there is certainly no time for rationality. Didn’t you see that Maguire’s foot was tilted 13 degrees in the wrong direction for 1.03487 seconds? He should feck right off out of this club and never put the shirt on again. Van Dijk on the other hand is literally the most amazing defender the league has ever seen, and should have full rights to shag all our mums.

Until we get a slow motion replay of him waiting half a second too long to close someone down of course, and then he can feck right off and retire too, the worthless cnut. Never rated him.
 
simonhch said:
feck right off with your sensible posting. This isn’t the place for that. You’re either the best defender the world has ever seen, and nigh on invincible, or you’re a worthless piece of shit who should be hounded out of your club, home, marriage, country, and probably give up football altogether. There is no space in the middle ground, and there is certainly no time for rationality. Didn’t you see that Maguire’s foot was tilted 13 degrees in the wrong direction for 1.03487 seconds? He should feck right off out of this club and never put the shirt on again. Van Dijk on the other hand is literally the most amazing defender the league has ever seen, and should have full rights to shag all our mums.

Until we get a slow motion replay of him waiting half a second too long to close someone down of course, and then he can feck right off and retire too, the worthless cnut. Never rated him.
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This is why I bother keep posting in the face of all the nonsense, every now and again you feel like you have found an ally who gets it :D

I honestly think the problem half this forum has is they have never played the game to any sort of standard, so they don't get the detail of what they are watching.

Same as when I watch cricket. I am a big fan, but I have never played. So when some commentator says "Alex Hales is useless against left-arm spin" I find myself being guilty of just nodding along and repeating stuff I really have no clue about the nuances of. I have never stood at the end of the wicket and been bowled to by a useful left-arm spinner. I have no idea about the real detail behind why this is difficult for a right-hander, or whether what the commentator states as gospel is true.

What I dont do though, is go on a cricket forum, whinge like a baby and then call everybody who disagrees with me an idiot. I quietly express my opinion to some mates (usually to a lad I know who has actually played a good level of cricket), he tells me I am talking rubbish, usually, and I shut up and listen and try to learn

I am by no means at all saying I was some kind of great footballer, but I have played CB at low, local semi-pro level and I think even if you have played this, or even good, organised amatuer football, it really helps you understand the true detail of what you are watching.

Playing FIFA and Football Manager and/or listening to the sensationalisn on Sky Sports, on the other hand, completely skew your perspective
 
Lentwood said:
This is why I bother keep posting in the face of all the nonsense, every now and again you feel like you have found an ally who gets it :D

I honestly think the problem half this forum has is they have never played the game to any sort of standard, so they don't get the detail of what they are watching.

Same as when I watch cricket. I am a big fan, but I have never played. So when some commentator says "Alex Hales is useless against left-arm spin" I find myself being guilty of just nodding along and repeating stuff I really have no clue about the nuances of. I have never stood at the end of the wicket and been bowled to by a useful left-arm spinner. I have no idea about the real detail behind why this is difficult for a right-hander, or whether what the commentator states as gospel is true.

What I dont do though, is go on a cricket forum, whinge like a baby and then call everybody who disagrees with me an idiot. I quietly express my opinion to some mates (usually to a lad I know who has actually played a good level of cricket), he tells me I am talking rubbish, usually, and I shut up and listen and try to learn

I am by no means at all saying I was some kind of great footballer, but I have played CB at low, local semi-pro level and I think even if you have played this, or even good, organised amatuer football, it really helps you understand the true detail of what you are watching.

Playing FIFA and Football Manager and/or listening to the sensationalisn on Sky Sports, on the other hand, completely skew your perspective
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Spot on.
 
The passing at the back is so much quicker with VVD in there. Liverpool feels sluggish in the buildup when he's not playing.

Also, how many CBs can give that tight long ball to Salah so frequently and accurately?

He's second to none, IMO.
 
What was he thinking. Basically let Pulisic have a free run at the keeper.
 
Unsurprisingly, he just isnt the man mountain he was was before his injury. Still good of course, but was on a different level.
 
Commentators still to think he is calm and composed to the point of looking casual and unaffected during the game. It's not that. He can't accelerate and change directions as quickly as he could before.

He'll often clear the ball for safety where he'd once spin and put it back into play. Knees never spare you.
 
He's got few more years on him definitely needs to cash in and join a bigger team and get paid before it's too late.
 
I have never seen him give the ball away so many times as he did today.
He did ok all things considered but looks quite a long way short of a couple of years ago and given his age and the likely reason for his decline I don’t think he’ll ever get back there……
 
izec said:
Unsurprisingly, he just isnt the man mountain he was was before his injury. Still good of course, but was on a different level.
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This about sums it up.
He has definitely reached his peak and on the way down now.

People forget this was his second serious injury. He was out for 6 months at Southampton too, before he joined Liverpool.
 
Did he test positive for Covid recently? He looked so slow and exhausted whole game.
 
So here's my observation of Van Dijk this season.

He looks unsure and unconfident. Perfect example would be the Lookman goal. Pre-injury Van Dijk would have closed him down or at least attempted to close the gap. He didn't even try.

It's also the little things. Like yesterday, he kicked the ball out when Trent was covering the attacker, while Van Dijk had all the time to take it in his stride. A trivial incident that but a bit telling.

He is avoiding taking initiative this season. In most instances it has been Matip who has been doing that.

He is definitely not being vocal. Pre injury Van Dijk would constantly shout at his defence and organise, now he seems more focussed on his own game, which is completely understandable.

He hasn't been bad this season. Made few mistakes. It's just that he had set such high standards for himself, that his present performances look substandard.

Hopefully, he will regain the form as he plays more and more games. After all he is coming back from a serious injury.
 
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He is becoming like old Rio who constantly plays hoofball. Still had enough quality on the ball to spray those long passes. Also had a moment of class when he megged Pulisic.

I don't think he's at fault for the Pulisic goal. He was covering Mount and Pulisic was Henderson's man. Many here just watched that "expert" HT analysis by Richard Keys and Andy Gray where they drew an arrow of where Van Dijk should be and decided he was at fault for it.
 
Is he the same player then?

Was poor at Palace and made some pretty bizarre decisions during the game. Is this a general theme with him at the moment or are we happy to accept he was never actually one of the best CBs to grace the game in the first place?
 
TheReligion said:
Is he the same player then?

Was poor at Palace and made some pretty bizarre decisions during the game. Is this a general theme with him at the moment or are we happy to accept he was never actually one of the best CBs to grace the game in the first place?
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No. He’s still good, but not as good as he was. Before his injury, he was phenomenal and one of the best defenders to ever play in the league, imo. He isn’t anymore. Whether or not he’ll get back to that level is anyone’s guess.
 
Rob said:
No. He’s still good, but not as good as he was. Before his injury, he was phenomenal and one of the best defenders to ever play in the league, imo. He isn’t anymore. Whether or not he’ll get back to that level is anyone’s guess.
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Aside from the injury impacting on him physically I was surprised with his decision making more than anything else. What attributes do you feel have regressed and why?

Your defensive issues are literally the difference between you and city at the moment. They can protect a lead while every time I see you play you leak chances and look pretty vulnerable.
 
I think a lot of his decisions will be the player choosing to do things that the pre-injury player would have been capable of doing, and then getting it wrong when the post-injury player tries to do them.

I think he will be fine though, it’s just getting used to the fact that he has lost a bit of pace and maybe isn’t quite as athletic as he was before. He is still a good athlete for a center back though and is strong, a good passer and reads the game well.

He is intelligent enough to make those adjustments over time and he was never really dependent on one facet of his abilities.
 
Maluco said:
I think a lot of his decisions will be the player choosing to do things that the pre-injury player would have been capable of doing, and then getting it wrong when the post-injury player tries to do them.

I think he will be fine though, it’s just getting used to the fact that he has lost a bit of pace and maybe isn’t quite as athletic as he was before. He is still a good athlete for a center back though and is strong, a good passer and reads the game well.

He is intelligent enough to make those adjustments over time and he was never really dependent on one facet of his abilities.
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He's lost a yard of pace which was by far his best attribute, he was the fastest CB on the planet before his injury.
 
TheReligion said:
Aside from the injury impacting on him physically I was surprised with his decision making more than anything else. What attributes do you feel have regressed and why?

Your defensive issues are literally the difference between you and city at the moment. They can protect a lead while every time I see you play you leak chances and look pretty vulnerable.
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I think it’s difficult to say. He used to be this all conquering cb that would just sweep up everything. Like he had this ability to make the whole team seem unbeatable. He can’t do that anymore and like you say also makes mistakes he wouldn’t before.

I do believe he’ll get better as I think he’s an intelligent player who just needs to figure out how to adapt his playing style after that terrible injury and the loss of speed.
 
Sky had a graphic recently showing that he's still 1st in a lot of the defensive stats (aerial duels, interceptions etc) but you can tell watching him that he's lost a bit of speed post injury. I can't for the life of me understand why Klopp insists on playing such a high line but maybe it's a gamble he's willing to accept to ensure that we squeeze teams higher up the pitch.

We've been done over by so many balls over the top or in behind our back line this season.
 
AltiUn said:
He's lost a yard of pace which was by far his best attribute, he was the fastest CB on the planet before his injury.
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Its an issue, but what I meant to say was, he was always a much more well-rounded player than that. He is good at a lot of things, so whilst not being as quick, he is still an excellent CB
 
TheReligion said:
Is he the same player then?

Was poor at Palace and made some pretty bizarre decisions during the game. Is this a general theme with him at the moment or are we happy to accept he was never actually one of the best CBs to grace the game in the first place?
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Same player? No. I do believe his peak and set of attributes set him apart from any other defender I’ve ever personally seen. People talk about the great defenders of yesteryear and I can tell they never actually watched those defenders week in week out because I watched those players and they’re excellent but they made far more little mistakes defensively that VVD at his peak made. But we are in the forensic analysis era of social media so that’s a totally different ballgame.

Right now? He’s a very good defender, but imo several levels below his peak, I expect him to improve because there’s always a 12-18 month period for these injuries, but I don’t see him ever reaching that peak again. I think the most important attribute in football is agility , and this is the one injury that kills that. His top level pace is fine, it was poor this weekend but he’s played 3 games in a week after an ACL I can excuse that. But on the ground I’ve seen defenders cut him in ways you just never got near doing previously. He’s been passive and safe and far less aggressive in every facet of his play. He’s a completely different defender so far.

Notwithstanding our personal team ambitions and just solely focusing on the player, I think we just need to give it time and see. He’s still perfectly capable of being a great defender, but I just don’t think he reaches the heights he hit previously and tbh they were insane, he had everything as a defender in a way I’ve never seen before. For me personally it’s something I’ll always remember which kind of transcends football rivalries and what not, it’ll be something I’ll recall when I don’t care about following as closely as I do now, that days probably soon when it’s Newcastle and City duking out for the eague every season.
 
Best CB in the world according to Rio.

Owen even went as far as to say he's the GOAT CB.

Seems to have made a full recovery from the injury. Some of the experts here were saying that would have been a miracle.
 
VanDeBank said:
Best CB in the world according to Rio.

Owen even went as far as to say he's the GOAT CB.

Seems to have made a full recovery from the injury. Some of the experts here were saying that would have been a miracle.
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Earlier in the season Klopp rotated him a bit to ease him back in. Seems back to his best now although all of our CB's have struggled at times with this high line. Alisson's been excellent in 1v1's so we get away with it.
 
VanDeBank said:
Best CB in the world according to Rio.

Owen even went as far as to say he's the GOAT CB.

Seems to have made a full recovery from the injury. Some of the experts here were saying that would have been a miracle.
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Best in the world? Yes.
Goat? Get the feck out of here.
 
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