Utd now just another big club | All "United losing identity" stuff here

Mr. MUJAC said:
Clearly to you what happened in the 1950's does't matter.

To many others who have followed the club for many years it matters very much.
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In an ideal world we would always have high quality youth products in the team.

The problem is when the academy stops producing players that can mix it with the very best.

And like I said, it's only ever really been the Babes and the '92 lot that could mix it with the very best as a proper basis for a side, otherwise apart from one or two we've not had much success.

Especially in the last 15 years or so, how many players have we held onto from the academy that have been anything more than utility players?
 
birdy2121 said:
Tonight we are selling Danny Welbeck to Arsenal while we spend a huge chunk of that transfer fee on a player who spent much of last season injured and unless we pay another huge chunk of money will not be our player thereafter.

This to me signifies the dawn of a new era of Real Madrid esq dealings at Manchester Utd. I was hoping LVG would have been a superb tactician and man manager who could life our players with a few additions to be a top 4 team again, but after a tough start it seems he too has simultaneously hit the panic button with Ed Woodward and we are now spending Monopoly money in the hope it does not bite us on the bum and we come 5th or worse again.

We were ripped of by Real Madrid on the fee of 60m for a player worth circa 40m.

We sanctioned the purchase of a mop for 27m and a talented Chelsea off cast who could now be a bench warmer here for 37m.

What has happened to the soul of the club Fergie built, not to mention the scouting network. We dont panic buy we invest (as Arsenal have done yet again tonight).

Wenger like him or hate him is from the SAF school of thought, he would not panic buy and has never finished outside the top 4. We do it once and all of a sudden were playing a real life version of the PC game of football manager in the boardroom.

LVG for me (yes even now) was the wrong man for the job, he is too old and clearly with his signings has short term ambitions for his CV and Utd. We sadly in 3-4 years will pay for transfer windows gambles like this especially if were outside the top 4.

How I miss what Fergie could achieve with British players with heart who cared for Man Utd rather than
the types on huge money and if the truth were told would rather be somewhere else
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How many world class players come through the academy under fergie? it does not even hit double digits, yea the club truly hit the panic button with the signings, such a lazy one narrow mind of the transfers.

Rojo and shaw - signed a CB and a LB, something the team needed. A fun fact for you, blackett has played every game this season, and he is an academy player, WOW soul destroying. blackett evans Smalling jones shaw and keane a British core of united defenders, very fergie like if you ask me, adding the foreign talent of DDG and rojo all under 25 years old, with rafeal and evans the oldest of the united defensive options

herrera and blind - signed 2 CM players, and in blind's case he can play in defence. The clubs weakest position the club went out and strengthened, and most likely they will buy more

di maria and falcao - united needed speed in their attack and strengthen the wide positions, di maria has done that, wonder what united's wide boys were? zaha nani valencia young and janazaj, its not great is it? and in falcao united needed a new stiker, hernandez sent on loan, welbeck had regressed he needed a new challenge, and LVG is promoting james an academy player, WOW soul destroying. Signing falcao gives rooney and RVP a kick up the backside they need, as their form has been appalling.

LVG promotes blackett james and keane, blackett has played in all 3 PL games, am I missing something here?
 
legball said:
The obsession of some Manchester United fans with a tradition [long term manager, British manager, youth etc] and stuff is alarming to say the very least. What is this outrage for? Ferguson sold Beckham who was a zillion times the player Welbeck is, I don't remember any such outrage from so called faithfuls. To the OP, you think Van Gaal is old and is wrong for United, this is a man who is well known for bringing through young players throughout his career, he has done it at every single club he's managed, building long term foundations at every club he has managed, it would be interesting to know what you thought about us hiring Moyes in the name of that fictious tradition, look how that panned out. That obsession with tradition and stuff is what got us in this terrible situation where we find ourselves now. Post Ferguson, we needed the very best quality manager available because it was always going to be difficult, what did we do, we went for the most under qualified, because he represents a tradition of British managers - we ignored the fact that this guy was totally not suited to the job, on top of that, we gave him a 6 yr contract hoping he'd replicate Alex Ferguson. What people need to understand is that things have changed, and we won't be having a 26yr- in-charge manager anytime soon, Ferguson was a freak of nature, a unique man, they don't come around too often.
You'd think Van Gaal shut down the academy by the reaction of some people. The one thing that made us special in recent times was Ferguson and his long term tenure, now Ferguson is gone - we have to adapt and move on, this is Manchester United not Ferguson United. Ferguson's way is not the only way to do things right. I would have liked us to keep Welbeck, but either himself or the manager made the decision to part ways and we have to move on. We haven't sold George Best, David Beckham or Giggs to Arsenal. Our assistant manager is Ryan Giggs who understands more than a lot of us what Manchester United is all about, LVG has given lots of the lads debuts, few of them have started training with the senior squad, and if they are good enough they will surely get their chances, they have to earn it, nuff said. Before this summer, almost everyone to a man agreed that we needed to sign 5-6 top players to get us back to the competition, we got a manager who was decisive enough to take such decisions, we went out and got some top players and yet, the club is getting stick for it. Some people just can't be pleased. If LVG sticks with the young players and doesn't make top four, no one is going to laud him, trust me on that.
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And for the OP and guys like phelan, VG has played blackett in every PL game this season, an academy player. And many thought the club lost their way, or perhaps many thought the check book was packing dust, if there was one under fergie
 
NoLogo said:
We had the discussion in the Lahm interview thread and I actually share his opinion that if you want to be among the best teams in the world you need to have a footballing philosophy and a system for which you are going to buy the players. In the past SAF was responsible for all of this but we most likely won't get another manager for such a long period of time that can implement these things. That's why I think we need someone or if possible a couple of people at the club who will come up with a Manchester United football philosophy and a formation that we want to go with and then build a team fitting to the philosophy and system and bring in the right manager/coaches that fit to our philosophy and system.

I think if we would take such an approach we could build an identity again that is very much our own. The only thing I'm not quite certain of is who we could bring in to implement such a wholesale club philosophy. I would love if one of out former players could be that guy but non of them for me really stands out as a football visionary who could fulfill such a role.

The thing that we definitely need to prevent though is to bring in 4-5 different managers in the next 5-10 years who all have a different footballing philosophy and need us to rebuild the squad every other year to fit their style.
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If van Gaal's possession based attacking football is successful and all the youth teams are playing that way, then van Gaal's replacement should also be somebody who preaches possession based attacking football. Seen it work at Barça, no reason why it can't work at United. There are managers out there who've been successful who preach this style of football.
 
NoLogo said:
He could start it but he won't be here much longer than a few seasons so we need someone to carry it on when he is gone. Someone who can do it for the next 10-20 years.
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Someone like Frank De Boer who shares elements of Van Gaal's core philosophy would be the perfect replacement to be fair. If Giggs is found to have requisite traits in 2017 then perfect. If not then a quick rundown of De Boer's resume viz-a-vi the requirements of a United manager would suggest some good pedigree :

Winner ? Yes. Won 4 straight league titles at Ajax since taking over as the manager. Also some high profile victories vs European clubs with stronger teams and bigger budgets - 1-1 and 2-0 vs Milan 2010 that finished 1st in Serie A and had Thiago, Seedorf, Ibrahimovic, Nesta; 2-2 and 3-1 vs City 2012 that finished 2nd in the league and had Aguero, Nasri, Toure, Kompany; 2-1 vs Barcelona 2013 that had Neymar, Iniesta, Pedro, Xavi.

Tactically proficient ? Yes. Can play a lot of different formations to suit his team and has outmaneuvered some very strong teams and managers.

Can he promote youngsters ? Is there a bigger football school than Ajax ? De Boer's current first team is almost entirely filled with Jong Ajax graduates. Every year bigger clubs steal his biggest players - Mido, Suarez, Stekelenberg, van der Wiel, Vertonghen, de Jong, Alderweireld, Eriksen, Blind. But De Boer just fortifies the team with youth players. And each year they get stronger and stronger.

Character ? Very good. Captain at Ajax, Barcelona and the Dutch national team where he also the record appearance holder before Van der Sar. Natural leader.

European experience ? Yes. Has played in the Champion's League in each of his 4 seasons so far and one well considering the players at his disposal.

Can he handle big name players ? This is perhaps the only big grey area. Managing players of Ajax Amsterdam and the likes of Rooney, van Persie, Mata, Falcao, Di Maria is an entirely different proposition. But De Boer is well respected in the game, was Liverpool's first choice before Rodgers, Guardiola wanted to make him assistant at Barcelona instead of Tito and Frank was himself one of the best players in the world. So there's no reason to doubt his ability to get the respect of the current lot.

Long term ability ? He's only 44 and will be 47 when Van Gaal's current contract expires. Could go on to manage United for 10-15-20 years.

Apart from him Guardiola will be out of contract in 2016 and will most likely takes another sabbatical so he might be free in 2017. However Pep won't stick around for more than 3-4 seasons which is a big negative. Klopp is another one who might leave Dortmund. That said I'd rather he stayed there and continue his body of work TBF, adds so much romance to the game. Mauricio Pochettino and Roberto Martinez are good candidates from within the league.
 
Invictus said:
Someone like Frank De Boer who shares elements of Van Gaal's core philosophy would be the perfect replacement to be fair. If Giggs is found to have requisite traits in 2017 then perfect. If not then a quick rundown of De Boer's resume viz-a-vi the requirements of a United manager would suggest some good pedigree :

Winner ? Yes. Won 4 straight league titles at Ajax since taking over as the manager. Also some high profile victories vs European clubs with stronger teams and bigger budgets - 1-1 and 2-0 vs Milan 2010 that finished 1st in Serie A and had Thiago, Seedorf, Ibrahimovic, Nesta; 2-2 and 3-1 vs City 2012 that finished 2nd in the league and had Aguero, Nasri, Toure, Kompany; 2-1 vs Barcelona 2013 that had Neymar, Iniesta, Pedro, Xavi.

Tactically proficient ? Yes. Can play a lot of different formations to suit his team and has outmaneuvered some very strong teams and managers.

Can he promote youngsters ? Is there a bigger football school than Ajax ? De Boer's current first team is almost entirely filled with Jong Ajax graduates. Every year bigger clubs steal his biggest players - Mido, Suarez, Stekelenberg, van der Wiel, Vertonghen, de Jong, Alderweireld, Eriksen, Blind. But De Boer just fortifies the team with youth players. And each year they get stronger and stronger.

Character ? Very good. Captain at Ajax, Barcelona and the Dutch national team where he also the record appearance holder before Van der Sar. Natural leader.

European experience ? Yes. Has played in the Champion's League in each of his 4 seasons so far and one well considering the players at his disposal.

Can he handle big name players ? This is perhaps the only big grey area. Managing players of Ajax Amsterdam and the likes of Rooney, van Persie, Mata, Falcao, Di Maria is an entirely different proposition. But De Boer is well respected in the game, was Liverpool's first choice before Rodgers, Guardiola wanted to make him assistant at Barcelona instead of Tito and Frank was himself one of the best players in the world. So there's no reason to doubt his ability to get the respect of the current lot.

Long term ability ? He's only 44 and will be 47 when Van Gaal's current contract expires. Could go on to manage United for 10-15-20 years.

Apart from him Guardiola will be out of contract in 2016 and will most likely takes another sabbatical so he might be free in 2017. However Pep won't stick around for more than 3-4 seasons which is a big negative. Klopp is another one who might leave Dortmund. That said I'd rather he stayed there and continue his body of work TBF, adds so much romance to the game. Mauricio Pochettino and Roberto Martinez are good candidates from within the league.
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When van Gaal steps aside, if I were united, I'd have a short list of two. Pep Guardiola and Frank De Boer, take your pick. I think Frank De Boer might be more suitable.
 
matherto said:
In an ideal world we would always have high quality youth products in the team.

The problem is when the academy stops producing players that can mix it with the very best.

And like I said, it's only ever really been the Babes and the '92 lot that could mix it with the very best as a proper basis for a side, otherwise apart from one or two we've not had much success.

Especially in the last 15 years or so, how many players have we held onto from the academy that have been anything more than utility players?
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I actually agree that in the last decade our output has been disappointing and there are probably a number of factors contributing to that.

But to say that it's only the 'Busby Babes' and the 'Class of 1992' who could mix it and there are only one or two other players who have given us success isn't actually accurate.

The following youth players all contributed to FA Cup and League success, many of them internationals.

Late 1940's - Crompton, Carey, Aston, Cockburn, Anderson, Pearson, Mitten, Morris, Redman
Busby Babes - Foulkes, Byrne, Colman, Jones, Edwards, Blanchflower, Whelan, Viollet, Pegg, Charlton, Scanlon
Early 1960's - Brennan, Giles, Stiles, Gaskell
Mid 1960's - Rimmer, Noble, Fitzpatrick, Burns, Kidd, Sadler, Best, Aston
1970's - McIlroy, Greenhoff, Albiston, Nicholl, McCreery
1980's - Duxbury, Whiteside, Blackmore, Hughes, Davies, Martin, Giggs
Class of 1992 - Beckham, Butt, Neville, Neville, Scholes (although Phil Neville was later)
2000's - Brown, O'Shea, Fletcher
2010's - Evans, Welbeck

Obviously other players have come through, and even played internationally, but couldn't break into the team on a consistent basis.

So saying it has been two group with a couple of exceptions is quite wide of the mark.

It will be very interesting to see how we re-address the output over the last 5-10 years.
 
Gee Male said:
I have to agree somewhat with the sentiment here. Not happy at all with this Welbeck transfer. This transfer window has kind of left me with the feeling that our players are no longer "our" players.
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Exactly. The issue is, i believe that there was so many players new in the squad that it feels a bit "FM-ish". We don't need quantity (even if they are quality). Quality alone will do just fine. When that is said, we needed quite a few since so many departed. However, I did expect us to have more players stepping up (those who has been in United for a while).

Dante said:
Manchester United doesn't feel like Manchester United right now. They just seem like a club that happens to be based in the city. I'll give LvG a chance, but if this is the way it continues I'm not sure how I'll feel about it.

There used to be something unique about United players. You'd always hear stories from England camps about how the Utd lads were a breed apart. Now we're just importing players who may well be top talents, but don't seemed to be vetted for personality the way Fergie used to do. I really hope this doesn't end in tears the ways van Gaal's stints at Barca and Bayern did.

I really don't like it. Even if we win a title, it won't feel like an achievement that was built in Manchester.
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Guess we will just "become Liverpool"...
(Decline in performance and tradition becomes just another word in the vocabulary).

gooDevil said:
TL;DR

United has always bought top players and played youth, and that will continue.
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Don't see how Falcao, Rooney and RVP will be beched by any of the United youngsters tbh. And Mata of course is ALWAYS on the pitch.

Oneunited26 said:
LVG promotes blackett james and keane, blackett has played in all 3 PL games, am I missing something here?
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You speak about Falcao giving RVP and Rooney a "kick", but I don't see Mata being challanged for the 10-er. Kagawa was sold without given the promised chance by LVG, he played 20 minuted compared to Matas several hundred. That is just unfair to him. And don't come with the big speach about how much better Mata is or worse/crap Kagawa is, this isn't about that at all. When not given a chance to show your worth you are already assumed crap. I feel that LVG has not been sincere towards the players he chose to pick and leave out. He promised a chance for all to show their worth, yet some were just sent out and some just were immovable.
 
So my best mate is an Arsenal fan and my other best mates all tend to support Oldham (it's where i am from but my dad was born a stone's throw from Old Trafford and took me to my first game when i was 4).

We were on facebook the other night discussing Welbeck and one of my Oldham supporting friends claimed the thread title..

That Utd have become as soulless as City and Chelsea with our spending this window.

He says he hopes Arsenal or Liverpool win the league now.

I pointed out we only spent 30 million more than Liverpool and we got Di Maria and Falcao to boot and they got half the Southampton team.

He replied that Liverpool is a work in progress with a vison- and i replied that they finished 2nd and brought in 9 new players where we finished 7th and brought in 6th..

He has not replied since- (was 2 days ago)

So does my Oldham supporting friend have a point do his words ring true?

Discuss...
 
Your Oldham supporting friend is talking out of his backside. If Oldham were in a position to get the likes of Di Maria and Falcao would he still be saying the same?
 
He's talking nonsense about Liverpool but kind of agree with what he's saying about us becoming soulless, were basically doing what City and Chelsea did a few few years ago albeit with our own money.
 
People like this actually exist. I share atoms with them. I breathe the same air. I may have met them or shook their hands.

I need a shower.
 
hp88 said:
He's talking nonsense about Liverpool but kind of agree with what he's saying about us becoming soulless, were basically doing what City and Chelsea did a few few years ago albeit with our own money.
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How dare we.
 
The more people say this the more I think about it. I think we have gone out and replaced first XI team members whilst Liverpool have signed players to give their squad depth and it's likely only one or two will get straight in to the new team.

I don't think the players we have signed are mercenaries as seen by Di Maria's attitude last night. I think it will not be long before players like Blind, ADM and Rojo are United through and through.
 
Alright so you have friends... no need to brag about it.

And if catching up with the rest of how the top football clubs operate is souless... especially when we're in dire need of an overhaul, then yeah... we're souless,
 
One transfer window!

ONE!

To correct the supposed years of under investment that every fan and media gobshite has been banging on about.......
And now we've done it THAT is wrong as well.
 
No. Utd cannot win either way to be honest. Last summer and the majority of this summer saw unprecedented criticism of the club for failing to act like "the biggest club in the world". Utd have not spent like that in many years and its come at a time when the team badly needed an injection of quality. We would have been roundly criticised if we sat back and watched these players go elsewhere but instead we are criticised for doing the exact opposite.

Utd are an easy target for criticism - no matter what we do, it will happen. Opposition fans and managers said you need CL to attract top players - we went out and proved otherwise.

As for being soul less, tell me what other top team has given debuts to 6 academy products already? Injuries or not, we've done it when other managers would have shoe horned established players into positions that are not their own. LVG told us the priority this year was the 1st team, yet he has still managed to promote youth.
 
Another identity thread .. FFFFFSSSSSS, Mods merge the goddamn threads already? what is going on here.
 
So when Bayern or Barca go out and spend 60M on Neymar or Suarez, instead of promoting from La Masia, are they ruining their identity too?.

Sometimes, teams need quality that cannot be taught or trained quickly enough. We clearly needed a boost in terms of quality, and that's what we have done. The press are just butt hurt that we aren't going to languish around 7th forever, we will be back and with a bang.
 
Nothing has really changed. We have spent big in the past. The only reason people have ever considered City and Chelsea as soulless is because they didn't have a history of success behind them before being bought and money pushed through them. United on the other hand have generated the cash themselves and spent our own funds on these players.

In the end top teams spend money to get the top players. We have hardly lost all the clubs history and background because we decided now was the time to improve the first team and spend cash we have earned, so no we haven't lost our 'soul' or what ever that means for a football club.
 
When we didn't spend, everyone wonders if we are the biggest club in the world, why we don't spend money! And when we do spend money on world class players and when we do need players, people harp on this. Our academy might not be churning out top class youngsters in good numbers, but we won't abandon it. One transfer window won't change it. We are spending now because we have to.
 
We get criticised and moaned at for everything we do anyway. If we had signed nobody we'd be slagged off for not improving the team and not acting like the biggest club in the world, we do finally splash the cash and we get slagged off for "breaking the Utd identity."

It's a bit of a tenuous link but one of the best examples of us being damned if we and damned if we dont was us winning the Club World Cup in 2008. We won it and the English media mocked it and treated it like a mickey mouse cup but if we had gone to Japan and lost we would have been mocked for losing. So either way the media narrative was to criticise Utd. This is similar.
 
Ady87 said:
The more people say this the more I think about it. I think we have gone out and replaced first XI team members whilst Liverpool have signed players to give their squad depth and it's likely only one or two will get straight in to the new team.
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Yes, we've identified positions where our first team players simply aren't good enough and replaced them. If they aren't able to step up, then the status quo would see us headed for mediocrity. Liverpool have been systematically doing the same over the last few years, just with less money available to them. You're right that in this window they've added depth; that's something we'll do in the next few seasons, both through promotion of youth and through the purchase of squad players. This window's bonanza was as much to make a statement as it was to arrest the decline.

Ady87 said:
I don't think the players we have signed are mercenaries as seen by Di Maria's attitude last night. I think it will not be long before players like Blind, ADM and Rojo are United through and through.
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I agree. Look at Rio -- when he first arrived, there was incredulity because of the price. He had no ties to United, but 12 years later he was part of the core of the team, and it was sad to see him go. While having a successful academy is essential for squad depth, to be a big team capable of challenging for the major honours in today's environment you have to also spend.
 
septic said:
Agreed, it's the same old shit
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what is worse is the same posters go into each of these threads and make the same points. It is like groundhog day. I don't mind the issue.. but lets have it contained in one thread, dilutes the quality when decent posts on the issue are spread across 5 different threads.
 
I'm not buying it. My colleagues at work are equally as horrendous about this kind of thing. My colleague at work made mention about United tearing away its foundations by the selling of Danny Welbeck, yet neglected to mention that in his place we promoted a youth product in James Wilson.
 
I'd personally much rather spend that money to inject quality into the team than put it to the Glazers pockets, where it doesn't do any good to any united fan apart from the Glazers. Instead of Chelsea or City I see it more like what Real Madrid have been doing for ages. A team with a great history spending big money on players in their prime. I guess it seems more noble promoting youth players and not spending big, but what's the point when the youth players lack clear quality? Cleverley is not good enough for a title winning team, Welbeck could've been a good cover player, but I guess he didn't want to be just a cover and wanted more regular first team football. It is easy to promote youth when you have been blessed with something like the class of -92, but that isn't the case right now. People seem to forget that we still have some very promising youth in our team: Januzaj, Wilson, Blackett for example. Or should the whole team consist of self-grown youth prospects for united not to be like city or chelsea, cause they spend big on one window. I find it rather ridiculous that united is being compared to the likes of chelsea and city after spending big in ONE window, with money that united has earned as a club by having the largest fanbase in the world and great sponsorship deals like the adidas one and all this after finishing 7th last season. Seems to me that no matter what united do there is always a certain group of people whining about their decisions. Had united not spent anything people would be rioting at the streets for 'Glazers to be kicked out and now that we did spend people whine about how united has lost its way. I guess it's a case of damned if you do damned if you dont.
 
jesus christ another 'losing our identity' shitefest.

Danny Welbeck left because he wanted to. He wanted to leave last season, it was his choice. I'm not entirely sure why the club is suddenly different because a nice lad who under performed as a player wanted to leave and did so.

Our squad has MORE academy players this year than last, so I'm not sure where this nonsense is coming from.
 
I'm all for the promoting of youth etc but only if they are good enough otherwise keep the world class players like di Maria and Falcao coming.
 
Do we really need another thread discussing this topic.
 
This perceived loss of identity will be history when united start winning games and playing the style of football van Gaal will want them to play.
 
Who are we? What is our identity? Are we just another big club now? If someone could start a thread on that, that'd be great.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
jesus christ another 'losing our identity' shitefest.

Danny Welbeck left because he wanted to. He wanted to leave last season, it was his choice. I'm not entirely sure why the club is suddenly different because a nice lad who under performed as a player wanted to leave and did so.

Our squad has MORE academy players this year than last, so I'm not sure where this nonsense is coming from.
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English media.

Now Welbeck has left United and gone to Arsenal, he has now gone from "Welshite" and "a donkey" and "someone who needs to step up" to, "The new Henry" "England's shining light" etc etc

And because of who we are, we're getting it in the neck. The same journos, who said we needed to buy world class players and spend money and get rid of the likes of Cleverley and Welbeck, are now saying we are losing our identity as it's yet another thing they can try and batter us with.

And such is the nature of a human being, there are some who will lap this shit up.

The English media are the worst of the worst!
 
Sorry i should have checked for similar threads feel free to merge it. Why Oldham fans are bothered about us i will never know... Oldham hate Utd never understood it.
 
Ainu said:
Who are we? What is our identity? Are we just another big club now? If someone could start a thread on that, that'd be great.
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Well, we used to be called Newton Heath...But we lost our identity when some ill advised man changed our name to Manchester United.

We've never been the same since imo. We became soulless
 
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