We've been spoilt by the babes and by the '92 lot. Otherwise we've never had consistent success with using homegrown talents.
People need to feck off with this shit. Would you rather we never won the league or any cups again? Rather we stayed out of Europe?
Will all due respect, that is some of the worst holier than thou bullshit I've read for a long time.
I presume you and your family have been to every United match we've ever played?
Agreed. This is all absolute nonsense. We're not even changing our identity. It doesn't even need to be altered slightly. We've always supplemented our team with top talent. George Best was purchased. Denis Law too. Bryan Robson. Cantona. Club legends. People must think the success of the class of 92 comes along everyday.
Moaning that the club isn't special anymore because we moved on Danny Welbeck and bought Angel Di Maria? We moved on Nicky Butt and Phil Neville! We bought Juan Veron for a British record. And that was a long time ago. This isn't some new phenomenon. It's just that we've either been financially constrained because of the leveraged buyout, or because of Fergie's frugality in his latter years, that we haven't seen this type of activity in the past 5 years or so.
Moaning that we sold Kagawa? We sold bloody Jaap Stam!
I've no idea what argument some people might want to make that we're not special. What makes the club special to me is the history, the matches I remember, the ups and downs, the buzz as I walked up Sir Matt Busby Way to a match, singing in a pub with my mates, and the friends I made along the way watching United.
Not a special club anymore because we spent a shed load on players we desperately need to reinvigorate our squad and heartbroken because Danny Welbeck wanted to move to Arsenal? Have a word with yourself.
Unfortunately you are showing a distinct lack of historical knowledge...
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@RaDamo Falcao @Radamel FalCinao
Maybe we should merge this thread with the "who are we" thread? Just a thought.
Unfortunately you are showing a distinct lack of historical knowledge...
I think he has a point.Unfortunately you are showing a distinct lack of historical knowledge...
Erm…no he wasn't!
Hear, hear.I think he has a point.
Prior to the babes, we were not known for giving youth a chance. It was very evident in pre-war football in England that you were lucky to be looked at as a footballer until you were about 23. When Sir Matt came to United, he created the babes which was not about homegrown, the babes were about mixing youth with experience. Sir Matt's philospophy being if you are good enough you are old enough. Yes, we started the foundation of a youth system, and our history is based on giving youth a chance, more so that we gave youth a chance than creating our own stars. I think, people have looked at the 92 class and taken it to extreme's. We will always give youth a chance.
Unfortunately, in Fergie's latter years, for whatever reason, he got the balance of youth and experience so wrong. Always giving imported or homegrown youth a chance but not adding sufficient experience to the side.
From what has happened this window, I believe LVG has got rid of that layer of players that don;t add great value, to give an opening to the youth players we have. Some are still very young and will benefit learning from the top class players we have just bought. I don't see any loss of identity yet. As for Danny leaving, it was inevitable as he was never going to claim a permanent first team place. He did well the other year when he scored a lot of goals when RVP was not available, but he just could not maintain the level required.
There seem to be about 4 threads on the same topic.
I think he's alluding to consistent high profile trophy success and the dip between Busby and Fergie. Our big successful eras were very much in bursts. 1908-11, Busby, Fergie.
I think he has a point.
Prior to the babes, we were not known for giving youth a chance. It was very evident in pre-war football in England that you were lucky to be looked at as a footballer until you were about 23. When Sir Matt came to United, he created the babes which was not about homegrown, the babes were about mixing youth with experience. Sir Matt's philospophy being if you are good enough you are old enough. Yes, we started the foundation of a youth system, and our history is based on giving youth a chance, more so that we gave youth a chance than creating our own stars. I think, people have looked at the 92 class and taken it to extreme's. We will always give youth a chance.
Unfortunately, in Fergie's latter years, for whatever reason, he got the balance of youth and experience so wrong. Always giving imported or homegrown youth a chance but not adding sufficient experience to the side.
From what has happened this window, I believe LVG has got rid of that layer of players that don;t add great value, to give an opening to the youth players we have. Some are still very young and will benefit learning from the top class players we have just bought. I don't see any loss of identity yet. As for Danny leaving, it was inevitable as he was never going to claim a permanent first team place. He did well the other year when he scored a lot of goals when RVP was not available, but he just could not maintain the level required.
That's just it we were!
In 2014, does it matter what we did before the mid-50s? In the modern era, we have produced one outstanding crop of youth players - the same as many other clubs of our size and the same as certain smaller clubs where the group broke up due to financial realities (eg the West Ham of Ferdinand, Lampard, Carrick, Cole).
I believe every managers in Ajax will obviously use their youth promotion a lot. They are not many big names want to move to eredivise clubs even in the past anyway. And also they have a great or probably one of the best academic.
Didn't pay attention much on Barca but he seems really like to sign big names too in there. He promoted some youth though.
AZ. It's an eredivise club so don't expect big names to come unless a big money.
Bayern. He promoted Muller right? Anymore names which I'm missing?
Clearly to you what happened in the 1950's does't matter.
To many others who have followed the club for many years it matters very much.
The original comment was about pre-Babes. I doubt many people on here have strong feelings about the 1948 cup winning team or the famous five. I even more query the relevance of those days to 2014. Remember Matt Busby was one of the great innovators of English football rather than some traditionalist worrying whether he was acting in accordance with the Ernest Mangnall way.
I think it is up to us to continue the finance and development of our youth system to source and produce the next generation of United player. Obviously we needed a quick fix now, but I think it will always be our goal to discover youth, much like other clubs. Also, there are no guarantees a great youth system will bear fruit.
Treating the sale of Welbeck as a watershed moment seems a tad melodramatic. He's a youth player not deemed good enough by United's manager. Hopefully a new player will step from the youth set-up Van Gaal does want to play regularly.
Don't some people get tired of hearing about the Class of 92 and the players involved are quite happy to bang on about it as well? It is like England winning the Cup in 1966 and people hitting every England team over the head with it ever since. The folks saying about the legacy. The Class if 92 was 22 bloody years ago, 22 years for goodness sake. Where has the legacy been in the last number of years. Nowhere. Yes we have had the odd player come into the team from the youth ranks. Have they been top class? No. We just struck gold that year and have been scrabbling about and holding onto players for too long trying to replicate it. It won't happen on that scale ever again. People need to grasp that fact. Either we build a side to keep us at the top or you promote kids and don't moan about being midtable. They are the options.
We had the discussion in the Lahm interview thread and I actually share his opinion that if you want to be among the best teams in the world you need to have a footballing philosophy and a system for which you are going to buy the players. In the past SAF was responsible for all of this but we most likely won't get another manager for such a long period of time that can implement these things. That's why I think we need someone or if possible a couple of people at the club who will come up with a Manchester United football philosophy and a formation that we want to go with and then build a team fitting to the philosophy and system and bring in the right manager/coaches that fit to our philosophy and system.
I think if we would take such an approach we could build an identity again that is very much our own. The only thing I'm not quite certain of is who we could bring in to implement such a wholesale club philosophy. I would love if one of out former players could be that guy but non of them for me really stands out as a football visionary who could fulfill such a role.
The thing that we definitely need to prevent though is to bring in 4-5 different managers in the next 5-10 years who all have a different footballing philosophy and need us to rebuild the squad every other year to fit their style.
I hope if LVG will bring success in this club he could stay here for at least 5 years.He could start it but he won't be here much longer than a few seasons so we need someone to carry it on when he is gone. Someone who can do it for the next 10-20 years.
He could start it but he won't be here much longer than a few seasons so we need someone to carry it on when he is gone. Someone who can do it for the next 10-20 years.
I would love to see evidence of that.That's just it we were!
I hope if LVG will bring success in this club he could stay here for at least 5 years.
First off, I think if you're expecting another Fergie you might disappointed.
If it works with LVG who's to say he wouldn't stay at least five years? I've got a feeling Utd and him could be the perfect fit, more so than any other club he's been before. Utd love mavericks and he's already commented about the unique away fans and how the management aren't all over him like at Bayern and Barcelona. He also doesn't strike me as someone who would retire if the project starts to really take off.
If it doesn't work out though, or of he does go after just a few years, my money would be on Klopp.
I would love to see evidence of that.
As most, including you, fans I am sure you have read every historic United book possible. From my reading the reason everyone took to the babes (including my non-Utd family and friends) was because Sir Matt introduced the concept of playing youth and a style of football not really seen before, i.e. the famous Arsenal side of pre-war was known as the hoof and kick them all team, very physical. That was the reason teams did not play kids as they were not physical enough. The 1946-onwards period really established something new.
It is not worth getting beat up about it, but I would be very surprised if under LVG, we do not still see the youth of say Powell, Wilson, Lingard, Januzaj get a look in. He needed to get the foundation right to re-build the team. My only concern is we will soon have a first 11 which may not have an English player. That will be a sad day. I just hope Smalling, Jones, Shaw can step up very quickly to the level that our recruits have set.
I'm not expecting someone like Fergie here. That's the point. We need someone who is not the manager, with other clubs it's usually a DOF or the CEO who takes up this task and we need someone like that because chances of getting another manager for as long as SAF are very slim.
Jury's out for me on that still. Sometimes it works, sometimes it's a disaster. Personally I'd lean towards keeping it with the manager. I think it's true when you say LVG can set up the system, even if he doesn't stick around. He did it at Barca and Bayern, which managers after him then benefited from.
But I say again, I think if it's starts to snowball it'll be a perfect match and he could stick around.
Football has changed so much since the 90s and early 2000s, it's unbelievable. I'm feeling sad that we've let Welbeck and Kagawa leave.
Our transfers in the past twenty odd years used to only be the odd signing every couple of years to replace retiring players or sold players. Young promising players like Rio, Rooney were bought paying high fees rarely. The core of our first team was always our home bred players. Can't be done now sadly.
Building a team organically requires 3-4 years. The huge amount of money in football and the financial repercussions of missing out on the CL means we won't be giving our managers that much time to build a team capable of doing so.
When did it work? He always got sacked after 2-3 seasons apart from when he was a coach in Holland with Ajax and Alkmaar he was basically untouchable because he brought immense success to those clubs. He will never reach that status with us though because winning trophies is a pre-requisite for every manager who takes over United.
http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/the-van-gaal-dossier/index.html is a pretty good overview about his career and you can see that it always goes sour with him after a few seasons mainly because he pisses to many people off and take into acount that he is 63 by now and won't be managing for that much longer.
You misunderstood. I meant sometimes the DOF idea works, sometimes it's a disaster.
Aye Mockney, the fallout has been a bit OTT IMO.There seem to be about 4 threads on the same topic.