Personally i would have given the 'class of 92' the role of managing Manchester United the second SAF retired. Then after a season of complete failure they could have all been moved on and never mentioned about again.
Utd now just another big club | All "United losing identity" stuff here
- Thread starter birdy2121
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Unfortunately you are showing a distinct lack of historical knowledge...
For most of them, United's history consists of Sir Matt and Sir Alex's reigns. Anything outside that gap is non-existent.
There seem to be about 4 threads on the same topic.
I think he's alluding to consistent high profile trophy success and the dip between Busby and Fergie. Our big successful eras were very much in bursts. 1908-11, Busby, Fergie.
I think he has a point.
Prior to the babes, we were not known for giving youth a chance. It was very evident in pre-war football in England that you were lucky to be looked at as a footballer until you were about 23. When Sir Matt came to United, he created the babes which was not about homegrown, the babes were about mixing youth with experience. Sir Matt's philospophy being if you are good enough you are old enough. Yes, we started the foundation of a youth system, and our history is based on giving youth a chance, more so that we gave youth a chance than creating our own stars. I think, people have looked at the 92 class and taken it to extreme's. We will always give youth a chance.
Unfortunately, in Fergie's latter years, for whatever reason, he got the balance of youth and experience so wrong. Always giving imported or homegrown youth a chance but not adding sufficient experience to the side.
From what has happened this window, I believe LVG has got rid of that layer of players that don;t add great value, to give an opening to the youth players we have. Some are still very young and will benefit learning from the top class players we have just bought. I don't see any loss of identity yet. As for Danny leaving, it was inevitable as he was never going to claim a permanent first team place. He did well the other year when he scored a lot of goals when RVP was not available, but he just could not maintain the level required.
Ahh, my bad, I thought we nicked him off a local club in Belfast.
Can this thread title be changed to "Haters Gonna Hate"?
Katt Williams knows how to handle haters...
Katt Williams knows how to handle haters...
Hear, hear.
The club was desperately overdue for replacements.
Rio, Scholes, Giggs, Vidic and Evra all lost in quick succession and without being replaced in a timely manner.
I hate to say it, it's painful, but Scholes and Giggs should have been replaced with top class players years ago. Rio as well. Look how long Fergie held onto Gary Neville.
People are reinventing United as someone who has always had half the first team come from their Academy, it's just not the case.
can't really win can we.
Couple of weeks ago, we were lacking the players according to certain media.
Now we have the star players, and ditched some promising but not quite hitting it English players, we've suddenly abandoned our principles, just another big club, forgetting the long term.
It's all utter bollocks. We had the class of 92 and the Busby Babes, but apart from them in the last 20 years who else has come through that has been a guaranteed first team starter? Evans and Welbeck are probably the closest, and fans didn't agree on either as being the answer.
Couple of weeks ago, we were lacking the players according to certain media.
Now we have the star players, and ditched some promising but not quite hitting it English players, we've suddenly abandoned our principles, just another big club, forgetting the long term.
It's all utter bollocks. We had the class of 92 and the Busby Babes, but apart from them in the last 20 years who else has come through that has been a guaranteed first team starter? Evans and Welbeck are probably the closest, and fans didn't agree on either as being the answer.
In 2014, does it matter what we did before the mid-50s? In the modern era, we have produced one outstanding crop of youth players - the same as many other clubs of our size and the same as certain smaller clubs where the group broke up due to financial realities (eg the West Ham of Ferdinand, Lampard, Carrick, Cole).
I know 'cos I've seen it
It was great and I want it
There's no point in sitting
Going crazy on my own
Do you know what
I was put here in this world for
Could you tell me
In three words or more
It's the only way of getting out of here
It's the only way of getting out of here
Take a lesson
>From the ones who have been there
My brain is not damaged
But in need of some repair
Hold on to the basics
But we can change all our tactics
There's no point in sitting
Going crazy on my own
It's the only way of getting out of here
It's the only way of getting out of here
This is the modern way
Of faking it everyday
And taking it as we come
And we're not the only ones
Is that what we used to say
This is the modern way
I know where I'm going
And that we are in the knowing
And I will stop at nothing
Just to get what I want
It's the only way of getting out of here
It's the only way of getting out of here
This is the modern way
Of faking it everyday
And taking it as we come
And we're not the only ones
Is that what we used to say
This is the modern way
This is the modern way
Of faking it everyday
And taking it as we come
And we're not the only ones
Is that what we used to say
This is the modern way
It was great and I want it
There's no point in sitting
Going crazy on my own
Do you know what
I was put here in this world for
Could you tell me
In three words or more
It's the only way of getting out of here
It's the only way of getting out of here
Take a lesson
>From the ones who have been there
My brain is not damaged
But in need of some repair
Hold on to the basics
But we can change all our tactics
There's no point in sitting
Going crazy on my own
It's the only way of getting out of here
It's the only way of getting out of here
This is the modern way
Of faking it everyday
And taking it as we come
And we're not the only ones
Is that what we used to say
This is the modern way
I know where I'm going
And that we are in the knowing
And I will stop at nothing
Just to get what I want
It's the only way of getting out of here
It's the only way of getting out of here
This is the modern way
Of faking it everyday
And taking it as we come
And we're not the only ones
Is that what we used to say
This is the modern way
This is the modern way
Of faking it everyday
And taking it as we come
And we're not the only ones
Is that what we used to say
This is the modern way
Clearly to you what happened in the 1950's does't matter.
To many others who have followed the club for many years it matters very much.
Pay more attention to Barca.
The obsession of some Manchester United fans with a tradition [long term manager, British manager, youth etc] and stuff is alarming to say the very least. What is this outrage for? Ferguson sold Beckham who was a zillion times the player Welbeck is, I don't remember any such outrage from so called faithfuls. To the OP, you think Van Gaal is old and is wrong for United, this is a man who is well known for bringing through young players throughout his career, he has done it at every single club he's managed, building long term foundations at every club he has managed, it would be interesting to know what you thought about us hiring Moyes in the name of that fictious tradition, look how that panned out. That obsession with tradition and stuff is what got us in this terrible situation where we find ourselves now. Post Ferguson, we needed the very best quality manager available because it was always going to be difficult, what did we do, we went for the most under qualified, because he represents a tradition of British managers - we ignored the fact that this guy was totally not suited to the job, on top of that, we gave him a 6 yr contract hoping he'd replicate Alex Ferguson. What people need to understand is that things have changed, and we won't be having a 26yr- in-charge manager anytime soon, Ferguson was a freak of nature, a unique man, they don't come around too often.
You'd think Van Gaal shut down the academy by the reaction of some people. The one thing that made us special in recent times was Ferguson and his long term tenure, now Ferguson is gone - we have to adapt and move on, this is Manchester United not Ferguson United. Ferguson's way is not the only way to do things right. I would have liked us to keep Welbeck, but either himself or the manager made the decision to part ways and we have to move on. We haven't sold George Best, David Beckham or Giggs to Arsenal. Our assistant manager is Ryan Giggs who understands more than a lot of us what Manchester United is all about, LVG has given lots of the lads debuts, few of them have started training with the senior squad, and if they are good enough they will surely get their chances, they have to earn it, nuff said. Before this summer, almost everyone to a man agreed that we needed to sign 5-6 top players to get us back to the competition, we got a manager who was decisive enough to take such decisions, we went out and got some top players and yet, the club is getting stick for it. Some people just can't be pleased. If LVG sticks with the young players and doesn't make top four, no one is going to laud him, trust me on that.
You'd think Van Gaal shut down the academy by the reaction of some people. The one thing that made us special in recent times was Ferguson and his long term tenure, now Ferguson is gone - we have to adapt and move on, this is Manchester United not Ferguson United. Ferguson's way is not the only way to do things right. I would have liked us to keep Welbeck, but either himself or the manager made the decision to part ways and we have to move on. We haven't sold George Best, David Beckham or Giggs to Arsenal. Our assistant manager is Ryan Giggs who understands more than a lot of us what Manchester United is all about, LVG has given lots of the lads debuts, few of them have started training with the senior squad, and if they are good enough they will surely get their chances, they have to earn it, nuff said. Before this summer, almost everyone to a man agreed that we needed to sign 5-6 top players to get us back to the competition, we got a manager who was decisive enough to take such decisions, we went out and got some top players and yet, the club is getting stick for it. Some people just can't be pleased. If LVG sticks with the young players and doesn't make top four, no one is going to laud him, trust me on that.
Read through the thread. Most people have covered it in depth.
It's bollocks. Danny wasn't a key player for us, nor the defining 'local' lad of our team and him leaving sure as hell doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.
It's bollocks. Danny wasn't a key player for us, nor the defining 'local' lad of our team and him leaving sure as hell doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.
Of course, I love and respect the traditions of this great club, it's great and unique, but let's not act like we are the only ones that have a tradition. Things have to be done the right way for the good of the club. The "tradition" of British managers being a prime example, just because we've never had a foreign manager before LVG, should we now put up with the average bunch of British managers there is today? I think not. To manage this club , you have to be of the right standard, irrespective of your nationality, that's just one example. No matter how sweet romance might be, there should always be a place for logic.
The original comment was about pre-Babes. I doubt many people on here have strong feelings about the 1948 cup winning team or the famous five. I even more query the relevance of those days to 2014. Remember Matt Busby was one of the great innovators of English football rather than some traditionalist worrying whether he was acting in accordance with the Ernest Mangnall way.
I think it is up to us to continue the finance and development of our youth system to source and produce the next generation of United player. Obviously we needed a quick fix now, but I think it will always be our goal to discover youth, much like other clubs. Also, there are no guarantees a great youth system will bear fruit.
Treating the sale of Welbeck as a watershed moment seems a tad melodramatic. He's a youth player not deemed good enough by United's manager. Hopefully a new player will step from the youth set-up Van Gaal does want to play regularly.
Treating the sale of Welbeck as a watershed moment seems a tad melodramatic. He's a youth player not deemed good enough by United's manager. Hopefully a new player will step from the youth set-up Van Gaal does want to play regularly.
I don't disagree with you…but just because it's history doesn't mean it's bad, irrelevant or worth forgetting.
It's usually about balance.
I have no problems with what LvG is doing regardless of whether or not I rate/like a certain player.
Exactly. When he came in LvG said he'd evaluate the players we had and tell them where they stood. He apparently told Welbeck and Cleverley that if they wanted to play they should go elsewhere. To be honest, I agree with him - neither has what is needed.
Yes and no. You're right it is 22 years ago, but look how long a lot of those players stuck around (plus Giggs!). It really isn't all that long ago that we stopped using them. You can argue that went on too long, but nevertheless that is what happened.
I agree completely with you about holding on to players just because they came through the club. I can't understand people bemoaning Wellbeck leaving for example. He didn't prove himself good enough. Quality and homegrown is the ideal, but quality has to come first.
My main point though was that even with the Class of 92, some people seem to forget we dotted amazing established players around them. I hope to see that happen now. I'd love to see someone like Wilson playing alongside and learning from RVP/Falcao and becoming a great success. Or Blackett and others stepping up in defence when they're less exposed with someone like Blind in midfield.
LVG
He could start it but he won't be here much longer than a few seasons so we need someone to carry it on when he is gone. Someone who can do it for the next 10-20 years.
I hope if LVG will bring success in this club he could stay here for at least 5 years.
First off, I think if you're expecting another Fergie you might disappointed.
If it works with LVG who's to say he wouldn't stay at least five years? I've got a feeling Utd and him could be the perfect fit, more so than any other club he's been before. Utd love mavericks and he's already commented about the unique away fans and how the management aren't all over him like at Bayern and Barcelona. He also doesn't strike me as someone who would retire if the project starts to really take off.
If it doesn't work out though, or of he does go after just a few years, my money would be on Klopp.
I would love to see evidence of that.
As most, including you, fans I am sure you have read every historic United book possible. From my reading the reason everyone took to the babes (including my non-Utd family and friends) was because Sir Matt introduced the concept of playing youth and a style of football not really seen before, i.e. the famous Arsenal side of pre-war was known as the hoof and kick them all team, very physical. That was the reason teams did not play kids as they were not physical enough. The 1946-onwards period really established something new.
It is not worth getting beat up about it, but I would be very surprised if under LVG, we do not still see the youth of say Powell, Wilson, Lingard, Januzaj get a look in. He needed to get the foundation right to re-build the team. My only concern is we will soon have a first 11 which may not have an English player. That will be a sad day. I just hope Smalling, Jones, Shaw can step up very quickly to the level that our recruits have set.
Can we merge all the identity crisis threads, it is getting pathetic.
I doubt he will last this long. History has show that he usually manages to piss off everyone after 2-3 years. I doubt it will be much different with us.
I'm not expecting someone like Fergie here. That's the point. We need someone who is not the manager, with other clubs it's usually a DOF or the CEO who takes up this task and we need someone like that because chances of getting another manager for as long as SAF are very slim.
We may well be talking at cross purposes…I don't disagree with anything you have said.
Jury's out for me on that still. Sometimes it works, sometimes it's a disaster. Personally I'd lean towards keeping it with the manager. I think it's true when you say LVG can set up the system, even if he doesn't stick around. He did it at Barca and Bayern, which managers after him then benefited from.
But I say again, I think if it's starts to snowball it'll be a perfect match and he could stick around.
He was at Ajax 6 years (9 if you include assistant job) and 4 years at AZ. This is his last job it is possible that he will be at us more than 3 years.
When did it work? He always got sacked after 2-3 seasons apart from when he was a coach in Holland with Ajax and Alkmaar he was basically untouchable because he brought immense success to those clubs. He will never reach that status with us though because winning trophies is a pre-requisite for every manager who takes over United.
http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/the-van-gaal-dossier/index.html is a pretty good overview about his career and you can see that it always goes sour with him after a few seasons mainly because he pisses to many people off and take into acount that he is 63 by now and won't be managing for that much longer.
Anyone noticed the state of British national teams recently?! Not much talent there right now.
Some are conveniently forgetting that we bought in Shaw and were royally screwed in paying the 'homegrown tax'. Aside from him and Sterling (100% unattainable) exactly what other homegrown talent could we have signed to retain this fabled identity?
identity is all good and well but for a team with our expectations and current situation, it will have to wait until we regain our prowess. Only when we have an experienced and we'll functioning team can we blend in young British talent.
Again, the fabled class of 92 were slowly bedded in over a period of 2 to 3 seasons and surrounded by top quality experienced players whom had already won league titles.
You misunderstood. I meant sometimes the DOF idea works, sometimes it's a disaster.
Ah okay. Well yeah it would have to be someone really good and I'm not even sure who would be the right man for the job.
Danny wanted to be first choice or he was off and we couldn't give him that, nor should we have.
We replaced Hernandez with Falcao and Welbeck with Wilson, that's the best way to look at it. I don't think we should have sold him to Arsenal but I don't think he should have been starting up front either so what choice did we have really? we'll be fine.
We replaced Hernandez with Falcao and Welbeck with Wilson, that's the best way to look at it. I don't think we should have sold him to Arsenal but I don't think he should have been starting up front either so what choice did we have really? we'll be fine.
Aye Mockney, the fallout has been a bit OTT IMO.