US Politics

For all the takes that this will cost them -
looking at 2009 (Obama's first term) this seems like a replay. The stimulus is better this time, but much delayed and less than what was promised, and all because of intra-party negotiation. Republicans looked dead in the water in early 2009 and are in disarray now, but came back strongly by the midterms. So if the wipeout happens, it will follow that pattern.
IMO, that's good, it shows voters responding to a party abandoning them.

I am not so sure this will happen. Joe Biden got elected in a surge of popular support, the most votes ever, on the platform of not being Donald Trump- every word about his agenda ("biggest presidency since FDR") was for the rubes who read and believe stuff like that. This article makes a good case that the primary driving force in voting is not material interests, but negative polarisation - hatred of the other side. As long as the GOP remains associated with Trump, that will remain a strong motivator for Democratic turnout. This is combined with the changing base of the party - richer, whiter, more educated - which in itself means they are less supportive and less badly affected by things like the minimum wage not passing. This negative polarisation and changing base demographics were the twin pillars of the Clinton campaign, and what the Clinton project has been since the 90s. It failed in 2016 because she is such an extraordinarily hated person. But since Trump, the party has been very successful.
 
Imagine having a country where you elected Donald trump, and have a minimum wage bill thwarted by Sinema.
 
Could go in the Maher thread but better for this thread. Was a decent segment last night. Video inside link.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/joe-scarborough-tells-bill-maher-that-the-republican-party-is-dead
Joe Scarborough to Bill Maher: The Republican Party Is Dead
“Honestly, tell me about this. You’re an independent now. So, what does that say? To me, it says that you think the Republican Party is unsavable,” Maher asked.
“Unsavable—no doubt about it,” replied Scarborough. “It can’t be saved."

“I used to get attacked by liberals because I was a conservative; now, I’m getting attacked by people who voted for a fascist because I’m a conservative,” he explained. “You know, my friends and my family members, they all voted for [Trump], and it’s been hard for me to process it. But the only way I’ve been able to come to terms with it is they’re not fascists, but they’ve voted for an ingrate man who is a fascist. I don’t understand why.”

“I’ve seen focus groups over the past couple of days of Trump voters who still would support him. Who say things like, ‘I like Donald Trump because of where he stands’—I can’t even say it with a straight face—‘on the issues.’ Now you tell me, what the feck does that mean? What issues? What issues does this guy share with conservatives?”

“Cruz and Hawley are seditionists. They should be in jail,” argued Scarborough. “You can look at the federal statute for inciting sedition, and it seems to me it’s what they did.”
 
WPMUFC said:
You can't question Sinema's no vote performance because it's sexist.
Click to expand...

I can't believe that I argued for years that the 'hysteria' over identity politics was just alarmism from people who spend too much time online.

Weaponised idpol is 100% mainstream now across media, politics and the culture at large.

I was watching a Malcolm X documentary a few days ago, and they showed part of a speech from 1963 (!) essentially warning against the weaponisation of identity politics. It's astonishingly prescient to what we're living today.

 
Sky1981 said:
I think if the 15 minimum goes to national 1 person 1 vote it still wouldn't pass.

American is weird. They're down on their luck and still refuses help just to spite the poorer hated imaginary enemies.
Click to expand...

No, it would pass as it is very popular. Florida just passed a state $15 by 60%.
 
Sky1981 said:
I think if the 15 minimum goes to national 1 person 1 vote it still wouldn't pass.
Click to expand...

Don't poll show the exact opposite?

Also I bet there are millions who say in public they are against it because of party politics, but in the booth they would vote yes in a heartbeat. No way a majority of a country where so many struggle would say no to more money.
 
maniak said:
Don't poll show the exact opposite?

Also I bet there are millions who say in public they are against it because of party politics, but in the booth they would vote yes in a heartbeat. No way a majority of a country where so many struggle would say no to more money.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure. If election tomorrow trump would probably still got 40 percent vote to the very least.

Even democrats doesnt vote for Bernie who's for universal health care.

Ps. Isn't it got rejected in the end in the house? Or was it senate?
 
Sky1981 said:
I'm not sure. If election tomorrow trump would probably still got 40 percent vote to the very least.

Even democrats doesnt vote for Bernie who's for universal health care.
Click to expand...

You can bet a great percentage of Trump voters would vote yes to a $15 min wage.
 
maniak said:
You can bet a great percentage of Trump voters would vote yes to a $15 min wage.
Click to expand...

We'll never know. Wont bet on it though. From what i read on many quora trump supporter they're mostly against 15 minimum. Some even made a genuinely laughable comment on it.

For what it's worth I'm also against such thing as it disrupts businesses. And I'm not even rich. But i can see why it's not a magic wand.

I own a small business. And a 2x increase in minimum wage would send me to the cleaner.

Even a 20 percent increase in current climate is enough to close me down. Lots of us are operating on the negatives. We're running at cut cost level due to covid
 
Sky1981 said:
We'll never know. Wont bet on it though. From what i read on many quora trump supporter they're mostly against 15 minimum. Some even made a genuinely laughable comment on it.

For what it's worth I'm also against such thing as it disrupts businesses. And I'm not even rich. But i can see why it's not a magic wand.
Click to expand...

about 20-30% support it depending on the poll. trump won florida with 52%, and minimum wage won with 60%, so obviously at least some trump supporters voted for it.
 
Sky1981 said:
We'll never know. Wont bet on it though. From what i read on many quora trump supporter they're mostly against 15 minimum. Some even made a genuinely laughable comment on it.

For what it's worth I'm also against such thing as it disrupts businesses. And I'm not even rich. But i can see why it's not a magic wand.

I own a small business. And a 2x increase in minimum wage would send me to the cleaner.

Even a 20 percent increase in current climate is enough to close me down. Lots of us are operating on the negatives. We're running at cut cost level due to covid
Click to expand...

I remember reading a while ago that Trump made some comments about considering it because it was polling well amongst his supporters.

And sure, covid makes the current situation a bit different, but in normal conditions wouldn't a wage increase mean you'd get more business since people would have more money to spend? In normal conditions, not during a pandemic.
 
Sweet Square said:
I completely forgot about this

Click to expand...


same speech i think

Q7H4XPQGMUI6RCV6NXWK4GXWEY.jpg
 
maniak said:
I remember reading a while ago that Trump made some comments about considering it because it was polling well amongst his supporters.

And sure, covid makes the current situation a bit different, but in normal conditions wouldn't a wage increase mean you'd get more business since people would have more money to spend? In normal conditions, not during a pandemic.
Click to expand...

Not that simple.

I used to pay 1 hour worth of minimum wage to cut my hair. They would demand more now that minimum wage is up.

If the increase is miniscule business would just suck it up in the name of competition. But if the increase is substantial the price of my haircut would also increase.

And everything from buying pizza which cost 15 minutes of labor to cook would go up.

The dentist which normally operates at 15 per hour would want to be paid more than the janitor who's now earning 15 cleaning the toilet.

And i probably got less since the disparity in income and employment in the short run would mean people prioritizing on basic goods first.

It's not a simple equation.

And a 15 minimum would create an massive outflux of outsourcing. Why pay us programmer 15 per hour when a japanese one would do the same job for 10? Just an example. Truth is many jobs can't be outsourced (shopkeeper as an example since you have to be in us to shopkeep) but many others can be outsourced (e.g. programming, call hotline is mostly outsourced to indians) at higher level factories can even outsources parts of production chain to cut cost.

Say ford made in US but oursources most of their component in taiwan, or simpsons used to outsource their animation to asia since it's cheaper.

And we havent even talked about unemployment. A 15 minimum would kill those unemployed since everything would cost more while they're getting less job opportunity.

Companies in the short run would do a massive headcount and lay some extra fat.

Etc etc. It's really hard to quantify it's effect.

In some countries raising a minimum wage can be beneficial to attract foreign skilled worker just as china is paying top dollars for expat. But the same increase in my country would bankrupt most businesses. But in saturated country raising a minimum wage would gain nothing in the long run other than inflation. And a US dollar inflation will effect the world.
 
Last edited:
Sky1981 said:
Not that simple.

I used to pay 1 hour worth of minimum wage to cut my hair. They would demand more now that minimum wage is up.

If the increase is miniscule business would just suck it up in the name of competition. But if the increase is substantial the price of my haircut would also increase.

And everything from buying pizza which cost 15 minutes of labor to cook would go up.

The dentist which normally operates at 15 per hour would want to be paid more than the janitor who's now earning 15 cleaning the toilet.

And i probably got less since the disparity in income and employment in the short run would mean people prioritizing on basic goods first.

It's not a simple equation.

And a 15 minimum would create an massive outflux of outsourcing. Why pay us programmer 15 per hour when a japanese one would do the same job for 10? Just an example. Truth is many jobs can't be outsourced (shopkeeper as an example since you have to be in us to shopkeep) but many others can be outsourced (e.g. programming, call hotline is mostly outsourced to indians) at higher level factories can even outsources parts of production chain to cut cost.

Say ford made in US but oursources most of their component in taiwan, or simpsons used to outsource their animation to asia since it's cheaper.

And we havent even talked about unemployment. A 15 minimum would kill those unemployed since everything would cost more while they're getting less job opportunity.

Companies in the short run would do a massive headcount and lay some extra fat.

Etc etc. It's really hard to quantify it's effect.

In some countries raising a minimum wage can be beneficial to attract foreign skilled worker just as china is paying top dollars for expat. But the same increase in my country would bankrupt most businesses. But in saturated country raising a minimum wage would gain nothing in the long run other than inflation. And a US dollar inflation will effect the world.
Click to expand...

I'm no economist so I'll probably just speak nonsense, but if you have more money around doesn't that mean you have more costumers and therefore don't need to increase your prices in the same proportion?

The haircut example, if you pay someone $10 an hour and this person cuts the hair of 2 people for $20 each. If the community has more money and you get 3 costumers per hour, you will get $60, so an extra $20 with just an increase of $5 for your employee.

I know this is an elementary school example but for many businesses the extra income would mean there's really no impact on their profit, no?

Anyway I won't go deeper into this, I don't have the knowledge for it, but surely we can all agree that a person who works 8 hours a day can't live in poverty. If increasing the min wage isn't the answer, what is?
 
maniak said:
I'm no economist so I'll probably just speak nonsense, but if you have more money around doesn't that mean you have more costumers and therefore don't need to increase your prices in the same proportion?

The haircut example, if you pay someone $10 an hour and this person cuts the hair of 2 people for $20 each. If the community has more money and you get 3 costumers per hour, you will get $60, so an extra $20 with just an increase of $5 for your employee.

I know this is an elementary school example but for many businesses the extra income would mean there's really no impact on their profit, no?

Anyway I won't go deeper into this, I don't have the knowledge for it, but surely we can all agree that a person who works 8 hours a day can't live in poverty. If increasing the min wage isn't the answer, what is?
Click to expand...

For the hairdresser analogy. His market would still be limited, i can only get one haircut a day no matter how much more money I have. And the hairdresser still only has 8 hours a day. If one customer took 1 hour to finish. Even if he wanted to he can't take 16 in a day. So someone has to lose money if the haircut price remains the same. Either it's the storeowner, or the hairdresser. Human are inherently selfish, nobody would want to take the hit, they'll burden it to the customer at the end of the day, who can blame them.

Minimum wage is ok if it's being used as a floor. It's by definition of it's name is a safeguard mechanism to help the workers. But 15 min is way above the market price it'll distort the economy in an artificial way.

The answer is to eliminate corruption in form of lobbyist, corporate tax evasion loophole, local state lobbyist etc. Free market economies works but right now companies arent playing fair since they distort the market with corruption and loopholes.

Tax cut are wasted because the trickle effect is being siphoned by greedy capitalist.

Raising minimum wage without fixing the fundamental is like raising the painkiller dosage on a cancer patient. Made you feel good but you'll become addicted and still you have cancer. And after a while you'll need a higher and higher dossage.

My country is a prime example. Since the introduction of minimum wage it's been raised almost every year, the workers arent getting richer, people still got paid less than minimum wage (because it's not realistic to find a job that pays minimum wage for most of us), prices adjust almost instantly to whatever wage hike, business closing down everytime minimum wage increase

Edit: i sell clothing. If my cost goes up by 20 percent doesnt mean my selling price can go up by the same amount. I face competition for china in imported clothing. My cost go up. My customer buy cheaper imported stuff.

I've been in the business for 20 years. The amount we received from making a tshirt hasnt fluctuated much from 20 years ago while prices of materials and manpower have easilly quadrupled. My employe used to get paid 400k idr permonth. Now he's sitting on minimum wage of at least 3mio per month. That's 7x increase while the prices of us branded clothing which we used to export remains pretty much similar. We still gey around 3-4 dollar per tshirt made.
 
Last edited:
When I was growing up in the 90’s-early 2000s minimum wage jobs were mostly young high schoolers or college students making money to buy cellphones or save for a car. They were guys and girls not much older than me working as waiters/waitresses, scooping ice cream at baskin robbins, selling snacks at the movie theater, cashiering at a store/fast food place etc.

We hear the argument a lot these days about a “living wage,” I’m guessing meaning paying rent or supporting a family. But these jobs were never meant to support a family of 4.

I know some European countries have “livable wages” and I’m curious to know how successful it is or not. Minimum wage should keep up with inflation and cost of living, but $15 is pretty steep. Small businesses will be hit hard and will be forced to raise prices or lay off workers and try to do more with less.
 
choiboyx012 said:
When I was growing up in the 90’s-early 2000s minimum wage jobs were mostly young high schoolers or college students making money to buy cellphones or save for a car. They were guys and girls not much older than me working as waiters/waitresses, scooping ice cream at baskin robbins, selling snacks at the movie theater, cashiering at a store/fast food place etc.

We hear the argument a lot these days about a “living wage,” I’m guessing meaning paying rent or supporting a family. But these jobs were never meant to support a family of 4.

I know some European countries have “livable wages” and I’m curious to know how successful it is or not. Minimum wage should keep up with inflation and cost of living, but $15 is pretty steep. Small businesses will be hit hard and will be forced to raise prices or lay off workers and try to do more with less.
Click to expand...

The old stereotype of minimum wage jobs being the sole domain of teenagers and college students paying their way through school no longer applies in the present. There are plenty of poor people who lack the training to engage in any degree of social mobility.
 
Raoul said:
The old stereotype of minimum wage jobs being the sole domain of teenagers and college students paying their way through school no longer applies in the present. There are plenty of poor people who lack the training to engage in any degree of social mobility.
Click to expand...

You’re right, it doesn’t apply to the present. So what’s the solution then?
 
crappycraperson said:


Comments below this tweet show the some number of liberals/Dems in US are capable of being as likely as Republicans in indulging in crazy conspiracy theories when facts seemingly don't suit their narrative. Trump's reign has induced establishment Dems to focus solely on avoiding a repeat so much so that they now frown upon any press criticism of Democratic leaders or policies since it may benefit Trump or any other Republican. I have seen such complaints over criticism of: Neera Tanden nomination, air strikes, 15$ minimum wage issue, Cuomo scandal, MBS non-sanctions.
Click to expand...


this is a twitter nobody with the same sentiment, but the way she's doing it made me laugh loudly. how is a democratic state senator calling for trump to resign 4 years ago related to anything :lol:

 
This self serving prick :rolleyes:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/graham-coronavirus-stimulus-reshaping-america

Congressional Democrats have pushed ahead with a jam-packed coronavirus relief bill which Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., told "Sunday Morning Futures" is an attempt to transform America as we know it.

"It's a reshaping of America," he said. "This is a trilogy of radical policy, and I hope the American people are paying attention because if you're not, you're going to wake up in a few years and your country will not be the nation you remember it being."
Click to expand...
 
Precaution said:
This self serving prick :rolleyes:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/graham-coronavirus-stimulus-reshaping-america

Congressional Democrats have pushed ahead with a jam-packed coronavirus relief bill which Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., told "Sunday Morning Futures" is an attempt to transform America as we know it.

"It's a reshaping of America," he said. "This is a trilogy of radical policy, and I hope the American people are paying attention because if you're not, you're going to wake up in a few years and your country will not be the nation you remember it being."
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Depending on who you ask, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.