US Politics

Carolina Red said:
Actually, no... you rejected the statistics on the average American because you didn’t like them and instead chose the median American.

Yeah, I did, to counter the bullshit narrative you keep pushing that people who are carrying a heavy student loan debt burden “just didn’t do College the right way”.

Germany doesn’t exist? They have a whole system of college and grad school that doesn’t saddle people with massive debt.

Also, the notion that you just casually presented, that in order to attain a high degree that is lucrative means that you must also become heavily debt ridden, is absolutely ludicrous and goes to show just how down the rabbit hole your ideas truly are.
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First of, no. I said I would prefer the median but I still chose the average Americans statistics to back up my claim. It's clear as day.

Secondly I never said anyone who has an excessive amount of loan didnt do it the right way but those people also exist.

Germany does exist. A nurse practitioner in germany on average earns 25-30k less than in the U.S. Your wife could live a german salary for 3 or 4 years dumping all the excess money in paying off her loans and she would be debt free earning significantly more especially if you add up all the projected years of employment till retirement.

That was my point, no you cannot "make college free" and expect similar salaries for a lot of jobs out there. It simply doesn't work that way. But if you're fine taking a 30k pay cut for the illusion of being more "free" due to less disposable income then sure be all for free college.

People have totally lost the art of understanding or discussing grey areas anymore, especially online. I agree college needs to get more affordable and accessible and a lot needs to be done but it's like no one is willing to at least look at the current situation and honestly assess it.

I'm sti waiting on a reply for my previous post on actual data of U.S averages btw.
 
shamans said:
First of, no. I said I would prefer the median but I still chose the average Americans statistics to back up my claim. It's clear as day.
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After attempting to promote the median as the superior statistic. And regarding what you posted - $50,000 salary with $37,000 student loan debt + rent + food + medical insurance + normal cost of living = a cash strapped generation of Americans that “did the right thing” and went to college
Secondly I never said anyone who has an excessive amount of loan didnt do it the right way but those people also exist.
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You’ve spent post after post banging on about it. If you don’t believe it, you’ve got a strange way of showing it.
Germany does exist. A nurse practitioner in germany on average earns 25-30k less than in the U.S.
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I find that hard to believe, as advanced practice nursing has never needed to exist in Germany.

It hasn’t been needed because they have an excess of physicians.

They have an excess of physicians because you don’t go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt to become one there.

Holy shit, what a concept.
Your wife could live a german salary for 3 or 4 years dumping all the excess money in paying off her loans and she would be debt free earning significantly more especially if you add up all the projected years of employment till retirement.

That was my point, no you cannot "make college free" and expect similar salaries for a lot of jobs out there. It simply doesn't work that way. But if you're fine taking a 30k pay cut for the illusion of being more "free" due to less disposable income then sure be all for free college.
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Your point here is rather moot, as APNs don’t exist there and my wife could have just gone to med school in Germany to become a physician.
People have totally lost the art of understanding or discussing grey areas anymore, especially online. I agree college needs to get more affordable and accessible and a lot needs to be done but it's like no one is willing to at least look at the current situation and honestly assess it.
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You’re projecting.
 
Carolina Red said:
After attempting to promote the median as the superior statistic. And regarding what you posted - $50,000 salary with $37,000 student loan debt + rent + food + medical insurance + normal cost of living = a cash strapped generation of Americans that “did the right thing” and went to college

You’ve spent post after post banging on about it. If you don’t believe it, you’ve got a strange way of showing it.

I find that hard to believe, as advanced practice nursing has never needed to exist in Germany.

It hasn’t been needed because they have an excess of physicians.

They have an excess of physicians because you don’t go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt to become one there.

Holy shit, what a concept.

Your point here is rather moot, as APNs don’t exist there and my wife could have just gone to med school in Germany to become a physician.

You’re projecting.
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a 50k salary with 37k student debt is absolutely manageable. You should argue with the experts who say this not me. I don't see me saying every person with a big student loan just did it the "wrong way" but it's obvious there are plenty of those around.

For salaries, compare (almost) any new grad salary with Germany (apart from some professions) and you will see they make 20/30k less. My point still stands: you have less disposable income in Europe for similar jobs. Even with loans, your wife will have more disposable income and capital than a similar grad in Germany.

So even if your wife chose to become a Physician in Germany she still comes out ahead with what she's doing now (add to that the extra time it takes to become a physician in Germany - opportunity cost) If she chose to go to med school here she would be making almost twice as much (despite the heavy loans).

Point being despite the loans you have more money. This is just for your situation and of course there are plenty who suffer. Like I've been saying since the start, not saying the system needs to improve but all of this started from someone saying Universities in America are reserved for the rich.


(also just to add using the median would actually support your own argument as not every new grad makes 50k after graduation but I'm trying to keep the statistics consistent)
 
It's awfully narrow-minded to correlate more freedom with more salary strictly speaking. Even with a pay cut, you still get public universal healthcare and good quality healthcare at that, tuition free college, a public pension plan, great public transportation, actual unemployment benefits, maternity benefits, more holidays, etc. Sounds pretty liberating to me.

You know what doesn't sound like freedom? The fact that you lose health insurance because it's tied to a job. The fact that an employer can fire you for any damn reason they want to without giving you any notice, severance pay not even being required. The fact that choosing to better yourself in education can cost you an arm and a leg while privileged people tell you that you don't understand economics.
 
shamans said:
a 50k salary with 37k student debt is absolutely manageable. You should argue with the experts who say this not me. I don't see me saying every person with a big student loan just did it the "wrong way" but it's obvious there are plenty of those around.

For salaries, compare (almost) any new grad salary with Germany (apart from some professions) and you will see they make 20/30k less. My point still stands: you have less disposable income in Europe for similar jobs. Even with loans, your wife will have more disposable income and capital than a similar grad in Germany.

So even if your wife chose to become a Physician in Germany she still comes out ahead with what she's doing now (add to that the extra time it takes to become a physician in Germany - opportunity cost) If she chose to go to med school here she would be making almost twice as much (despite the heavy loans).

Point being despite the loans you have more money. This is just for your situation and of course there are plenty who suffer. Like I've been saying since the start, not saying the system needs to improve but all of this started from someone saying Universities in America are reserved for the rich.


(also just to add using the median would actually support your own argument as not every new grad makes 50k after graduation but I'm trying to keep the statistics consistent)
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:lol:
 
Florida Man said:
It's awfully narrow-minded to correlate more freedom with more salary strictly speaking. Even with a pay cut, you still get public universal healthcare and good quality healthcare at that, tuition free college, a public pension plan, great public transportation, actual unemployment benefits, maternity benefits, more holidays, etc. Sounds pretty liberating to me.

You know what doesn't sound like freedom? The fact that you lose health insurance because it's tied to a job. The fact that an employer can fire you for any damn reason they want to without giving you any notice, severance pay not even being required. The fact that choosing to better yourself in education can cost you an arm and a leg while privileged people tell you that you don't understand economics.
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Dude has his head firmly in the hole in the ground.
 
Florida Man said:
It's awfully narrow-minded to correlate more freedom with more salary strictly speaking. Even with a pay cut, you still get public universal healthcare and good quality healthcare at that, tuition free college, a public pension plan, great public transportation, actual unemployment benefits, maternity benefits, more holidays, etc. Sounds pretty liberating to me.

You know what doesn't sound like freedom? The fact that you lose health insurance because it's tied to a job. The fact that an employer can fire you for any damn reason they want to without giving you any notice, severance pay not even being required. The fact that choosing to better yourself in education can cost you an arm and a leg while privileged people tell you that you don't understand economics.
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So now just because I said Universities are not "reserved for the rich" I am against universal healthcare?
 
shamans said:
So now just because I said Universities are not "reserved for the rich" I am against universal healthcare?
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Not saying that. I'm saying that your view of what constitutes freedom is strange. It's the same argument I hear from Republicans/conservatives that it's all about salary — doctors make more here, nurses make more here, etc. While true when scoped into salary alone, it doesn't account for the other things that strap Americans down that negates the extra income, which is why I provided counter points from Germany's social benefits. Being $100k (that's the low end) in debt to practice medicine is absurd no matter which way you slice it. And to even defend that by invoking the freedom buzzword is even more absurd.
 
Florida Man said:
Not saying that. I'm saying that your view of what constitutes freedom is strange. It's the same argument I hear from Republicans/conservatives that it's all about salary — doctors make more here, nurses make more here, etc. While true when scoped into salary alone, it doesn't account for the other things that strap Americans down that negates the extra income, which is why I provided counter points from Germany's social benefits. Being $100k (that's the low end) in debt to practice medicine is absurd no matter which way you slice it. And to even defend that by invoking the freedom buzzword is even more absurd.
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That depends on how you define freedom. To some a higher disposable income allows them to enjoy more freedom than social benefits but less ability to carve their own path. Again you're pulling in different arguments in here. My whole point was that the top 10 universities in America are not reserved for the rich and the loans are not always crippling. In fact on average, they are not.

I am not surprised you believe a 100k loan is absurd when doctors start with a salary of 200k. You could literally live 2 years as a Doctor in most of Europe would have be completely debt free and have a higher capital.

BTW let's talk about 50k salary with 37k loan:

Let's take everyone's favorite example, Germany. a $50k salary (higher than the average new grad) would translate to around $30k after taxes. Here in North Carolina it would be $38k. That's an extra $8k you are making per year.

Forget about appreciating capital from your salary, that extra 8k can pay off your 37k loan (I rounded it to 40) in 5 years. If you cannot manage that then you are terrible at managing money. I'm not even counting cheaper groceries, rent and living expenses in the U.S
 
Carolina Red said:
What reality do you live in?

Have you never heard of residency?
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This is post residency.....

berbatrick said:
I'm pretty sure you've said that before?
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That I'm against universal healthcare? Never have been. I'm not sold on Bernie/Warren's plan though and prefer Biden's. Option for private insurance should exist.
 
shamans said:
That depends on how you define freedom. To some a higher disposable income allows them to enjoy more freedom than social benefits but less ability to carve their own path. Again you're pulling in different arguments in here. My whole point was that the top 10 universities in America are not reserved for the rich and the loans are not always crippling. In fact on average, they are not.

I am not surprised you believe a 100k loan is absurd when doctors start with a salary of 200k. You could literally live 2 years as a Doctor in most of Europe would have be completely debt free and have a higher capital.

BTW let's talk about 50k salary with 37k loan:

Let's take everyone's favorite example, Germany. a $50k salary (higher than the average new grad) would translate to around $30k after taxes. Here in North Carolina it would be $38k. That's an extra $8k you are making per year.

Forget about appreciating capital from your salary, that extra 8k can pay off your 37k loan (I rounded it to 40) in 5 years. If you cannot manage that then you are terrible at managing money. I'm not even counting cheaper groceries, rent and living expenses in the U.S
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In order:

It's going to be difficult carving out your own path when you're not guaranteed insurance, pension, etc. But you turned it into a subjective thing anyway, which is a step from practically equating it to a fact, at least seemingly. $1 trillion+ student loan debt nationwide sinks the argument that debt is not crippling. You should look up the average family income of students in top universities. Of course it's not directly restricted to the wealthy, but being wealthy sure as feck helps you get into better high schools, hire tutors, having better home life, not having to work, and put more focus on academics and extracurriculars to get into those prestigious universities. You think an Ivy League school or MIT is going to accept someone just because of good grades? You're supposed to have more to the package than just that. Poor students typically don't have those privileges to do such things.

Doctors do not start with $200k salaries. As CR pointed out, there are residencies first. And physicians start out with considerably less than $200k. And FFS, $100k in student loan debt IS absurd. And being $100k in debt is the antithesis of freedom. And who gives a feck if it can be paid back after 10-20 years? The point is that it shouldn't be that much in the first place and there are examples from developed nations that prove that point.

Your explanation for paying off debt is not based in reality. That $8k is easily eaten up by expenses that would otherwise be covered by taxes elsewhere. Loans appreciate too, btw. Groceries are not necessarily cheaper either, unless you buy shit food all the time, which is way more prevalent here. You're also making MANY assumptions about one's life after college. You don't count for the fact that no job is safe and can get fired for no reason with no notice. They don't play that shit in Europe. And even with "in demand" degrees in tech, it's not like jobs just grow on trees and you can hop on over to the next good paying job if you're let go. Also tech jobs are not always lucrative but that's a different subject. You don't count for the fact that health problems are major setbacks. There's so many factors at play here, the fact that you don't even consider it just shows the privilege you're brought up with. You have NO idea how difficult it is to pay off $37k on a $50k salary. What do expect people to do, live under the poverty line? Wow, such freedom!
 
Florida Man said:
In order:

It's going to be difficult carving out your own path when you're not guaranteed insurance, pension, etc. But you turned it into a subjective thing anyway, which is a step from practically equating it to a fact, at least seemingly. $1 trillion+ student loan debt nationwide sinks the argument that debt is not crippling. You should look up the average family income of students in top universities. Of course it's not directly restricted to the wealthy, but being wealthy sure as feck helps you get into better high schools, hire tutors, having better home life, not having to work, and put more focus on academics and extracurriculars to get into those prestigious universities. You think an Ivy League school or MIT is going to accept someone just because of good grades? You're supposed to have more to the package than just that. Poor students typically don't have those privileges to do such things.

Doctors do not start with $200k salaries. As CR pointed out, there are residencies first. And physicians start out with considerably less than $200k. And FFS, $100k in student loan debt IS absurd. And being $100k in debt is the antithesis of freedom. And who gives a feck if it can be paid back after 10-20 years? The point is that it shouldn't be that much in the first place and there are examples from developed nations that prove that point.

Your explanation for paying off debt is not based in reality. That $8k is easily eaten up by expenses that would otherwise be covered by taxes elsewhere. Loans appreciate too, btw. Groceries are not necessarily cheaper either, unless you buy shit food all the time, which is way more prevalent here. You're also making MANY assumptions about one's life after college. You don't count for the fact that no job is safe and can get fired for no reason with no notice. They don't play that shit in Europe. And even with "in demand" degrees in tech, it's not like jobs just grow on trees and you can hop on over to the next good paying job if you're let go. Also tech jobs are not always lucrative but that's a different subject. You don't count for the fact that health problems are major setbacks. There's so many factors at play here, the fact that you don't even consider it just shows the privilege you're brought up with. You have NO idea how difficult it is to pay off $37k on a $50k salary. What do expect people to do, live under the poverty line? Wow, such freedom!
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I presented you with stats but you're just ignoring them.

1) What is the "average family income of students in top universities". Can you share that? Besides it still doesn't mean top universities are reserved for the wealthy. Remember that state flagship public schools are also "top schools" if compared to the rest of the world. Of course being wealthy helps you. Being wealthy helps you anywhere in the whole world. Why don't you pull up average household income of students who went to Cambridge, Oxford or University of St Gallen for their MBA? It has nothing to do with what I'm saying here that on average statistically students are able to pay off their loans. It's not enough but that's what the current situation is.

2) I know doctors don't start out with 200k but I was/am counting residency as a part of that Journey. a $100k loan is not absurd if your salary can crush that in 5 years. Do the math. You're going back to "developed nations proving" that it's possible. Take my Germany example. We can do the same with any countries that provide completely free graduate degrees. You're just fixated on an a dollar amount without studying the actual implications of what it is. Doctors make way more money in the U.S and there's a reason the best doctors in the world gravitate towards America. There is a reason the best hospitals and and cures are here (don't confuse this with healthcare)

3) How is it not based in reality when I gave you stats. Name me few expenses that would eat up $8k in the U.S and not in Germany for a new grad. Even if loans appreciate it would hover around 44-45k, so 6 years instead of 5. Are you telling me you can't get fired from Jobs in Europe and every job there is safe? That's not always true either. Jobs don't go on trees but we are talking about averages here.

You're telling me I am showing my "privilege" but if I brought up my own case you would complain about me using the "if I could do it anyone can" example. If I talk statistics you point to outliers. You're just going in circles and not willing to accept the overwhelming evidence I just gave you.
 
shamans said:
I presented you with stats but you're just ignoring them.

1) What is the "average family income of students in top universities". Can you share that? Besides it still doesn't mean top universities are reserved for the wealthy. Remember that state flagship public schools are also "top schools" if compared to the rest of the world. Of course being wealthy helps you. Being wealthy helps you anywhere in the whole world. Why don't you pull up average household income of students who went to Cambridge, Oxford or University of St Gallen for their MBA? It has nothing to do with what I'm saying here that on average statistically students are able to pay off their loans. It's not enough but that's what the current situation is.

2) I know doctors don't start out with 200k but I was/am counting residency as a part of that Journey. a $100k loan is not absurd if your salary can crush that in 5 years. Do the math. You're going back to "developed nations proving" that it's possible. Take my Germany example. We can do the same with any countries that provide completely free graduate degrees. You're just fixated on an a dollar amount without studying the actual implications of what it is. Doctors make way more money in the U.S and there's a reason the best doctors in the world gravitate towards America. There is a reason the best hospitals and and cures are here (don't confuse this with healthcare)

3) How is it not based in reality when I gave you stats. Name me few expenses that would eat up $8k in the U.S and not in Germany for a new grad. Even if loans appreciate it would hover around 44-45k, so 6 years instead of 5. Are you telling me you can't get fired from Jobs in Europe and every job there is safe? That's not always true either. Jobs don't go on trees but we are talking about averages here.

You're telling me I am showing my "privilege" but if I brought up my own case you would complain about me using the "if I could do it anyone can" example. If I talk statistics you point to outliers. You're just going in circles and not willing to accept the overwhelming evidence I just gave you.
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1. Explain to me $1 trillion in student loan debt if the average student can pay it off. (you can't)
2. $100k med school debt = best hospitals and cures is what I got from this. Also don't accuse me of outliers while claiming medical school can be "crushed" in 5 years as if that's commonplace.
3. Do I have to hold your hand and spoon feed you the differences of employment termination in Europe vs the US? Do I have to tell you again that you put words in my mouth? Do I have to itemize for you how expensive cost of living is without public social benefits? Do I have to write down every factor of expense for you to consider? I could, but I'd be wasting my time because your reading comprehension sucks. Overwhelming evidence my ass. Shut the feck up.
 
The average American can’t find $400 in spare cash for an emergency, apparently that’s just them being shit with money.

$50k annual income pre-tax means an average of 3k per month. Rent and transport cuts into at least a third of that, most likely half if you live in metropolitan area, so that leaves about a grand to satisfy all your needs after all monthly payments (car insurance, health insurance, student loan debt repayment being probably the 3 most prevalent). Doable if you just eat Macca’s, and that’s being single. Imagine having dependents.
 
shamans said:
This is post residency.....
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Then you probably shouldn't say "starting salary", should you?

shamans said:
What is the "average family income of students in top universities". Can you share that?
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The median is over $150,000 at Ivy League schools.

Also, regarding medical school debt...
Seventy-five percent of medical school students in the class of 2018 graduated with student debt, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges.
Among those graduates, the average student loan debt was $196,520, up from $190,694 in 2017. Those figures include debt from medical school, undergraduate studies and other higher education.
With a $197,000 student loan balance, you’d owe $2,212 a month on the standard, 10-year federal repayment plan, assuming a 6.25% average interest rate.

Here’s how the average medical school debt compares to other fields for the class of 2017, the most recent year all of the data is available:
 
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shamans said:
That I'm against universal healthcare? Never have been. I'm not sold on Bernie/Warren's plan though and prefer Biden's. Option for private insurance should exist.
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Biden's plan is not universal. (and also costs more)
 
Florida Man said:
1. Explain to me $1 trillion in student loan debt if the average student can pay it off. (you can't)
2. $100k med school debt = best hospitals and cures is what I got from this. Also don't accuse me of outliers while claiming medical school can be "crushed" in 5 years as if that's commonplace.
3. Do I have to hold your hand and spoon feed you the differences of employment termination in Europe vs the US? Do I have to tell you again that you put words in my mouth? Do I have to itemize for you how expensive cost of living is without public social benefits? Do I have to write down every factor of expense for you to consider? I could, but I'd be wasting my time because your reading comprehension sucks. Overwhelming evidence my ass. Shut the feck up.
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Well I see your frustration is creeping in becuase you cant fight statistics. Still waiting for a statistically backed reply to how you cant pay of 38k with a 50k starting salary. Take your time I'm waiting. I cant debate this with you any further till you speak with supporting numbers and not "your reading comprehension sucks".
 
shamans said:
Still waiting for a statistically backed reply to how you cant pay of 38k with a 50k starting salary
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Infinite Boredom posted about this...
InfiniteBoredom said:
The average American can’t find $400 in spare cash for an emergency, apparently that’s just them being shit with money.

$50k annual income pre-tax means an average of 3k per month. Rent and transport cuts into at least a third of that, most likely half if you live in metropolitan area, so that leaves about a grand to satisfy all your needs after all monthly payments (car insurance, health insurance, student loan debt repayment being probably the 3 most prevalent). Doable if you just eat Macca’s, and that’s being single. Imagine having dependents.
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And the fact that statistically, borrowers owing between $20,000 to $40,000 in student loan debt are taking an average of 21 years to pay them off should be your clue.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
The average American can’t find $400 in spare cash for an emergency, apparently that’s just them being shit with money.
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Let's entertain that thought for a bit: If that's true, that means the education system is broken.
 
Kinsella said:
Resident yanks...what are your thoughts on this article? -

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/09/why-is-college-so-expensive-in-america/569884/
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I mean... exactly!
In this public system, the high cost of college has as much to do with politics as economics. Many state legislatures have been spending less and less per student on higher education for the past three decades. Bewitched by the ideology of small government (and forced by law to balance their budgets during a period of mounting health-care costs), states have been leaving once-world-class public universities begging for money. The cuts were particularly stark after the 2008 recession, and they set off a cascading series of consequences, some of which were never intended.

The easiest way for universities to make up for the cuts was to shift some of the cost to students—and to find richer students. “Once that sustainable public funding was taken out from under these schools, they started acting more like businesses,” says Maggie Thompson, the executive director of Generation Progress, a nonprofit education-advocacy group. State cutbacks did not necessarily make colleges more efficient, which was the hope; they made colleges more entrepreneurial.
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Some universities began to enroll more full-paying foreign and out-of-state students to make up the difference. Over the past decade, for example, Purdue University has reduced its in-state student population by 4,300 while adding 5,300 out-of-state and foreign students, who pay triple the tuition. “They moved away from working to educate people in their region to competing for the most elite and wealthy students—in a way that was unprecedented,” Thompson says.
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Coming from Germany these numbers sound absolutely insane. I think for most universities you pay about €300 per semester and about half of that is so you get free public transfer in your federal state. What's also lost in the "well if you finish and get a job you earn 200k" argument is that not everyone gets one of those jobs. Sometimes people (or their relatives) get sick, sometimes they fail, sometimes they realize that they picked the wrong subject to study.
 
do.ob said:
Coming from Germany these numbers sound absolutely insane. I think for most universities you pay about €300 per semester and about half of that is so you get free public transfer in your federal state. What's also lost in the "well if you finish and get a job you earn 200k" argument is that not everyone gets one of those jobs. Sometimes people (or their relatives) get sick, sometimes they fail, sometimes they realize that they picked the wrong subject to study.
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The system in Europe is infinitely better.
 
do.ob said:
Coming from Germany these numbers sound absolutely insane. I think for most universities you pay about €300 per semester and about half of that is so you get free public transfer in your federal state. What's also lost in the "well if you finish and get a job you earn 200k" argument is that not everyone gets one of those jobs. Sometimes people (or their relatives) get sick, sometimes they fail, sometimes they realize that they picked the wrong subject to study.
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My textbooks were more than that.
 
do.ob said:
Coming from Germany these numbers sound absolutely insane. I think for most universities you pay about €300 per semester and about half of that is so you get free public transfer in your federal state. What's also lost in the "well if you finish and get a job you earn 200k" argument is that not everyone gets one of those jobs. Sometimes people (or their relatives) get sick, sometimes they fail, sometimes they realize that they picked the wrong subject to study.
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But.....her emails!!!!
 
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