Unpopular Opinions Thread

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Two opinions:

1. This summer in no way proves that Woodward is excellent at his job. Signing first choice targets with as minimum an amount of fuss as possible is far better than making mega signings towards the end of the window. Until we see the former scenario happen I won't be convinced.

2. Mata is one of our best players and is nowhere near as likely to be dropped as people think. He hasn't been given enough time to settle here and has actually still contributed a decent amount for someone who was thrown in to massively dysfunctional team. Anyone who is already dismissing him as a poor signing is being overly harsh and anyone who already thinks we should sell him is an idiot of the highest order.
 
Cheesy said:
Yeah I'd agree, he's a player who's good to have and I'd generally rate fairly highly, but I don't he's never going to be a world class defender who will be our main defender. A bit like Welbeck in that sense, perhaps.
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Yeah, both good enough to be in the squad both relatively young but at the age where they should have showed more then they have if they were to ever really be top players IMO.
 
sullydnl said:
2. Mata is one of our best players and is nowhere near as likely to be dropped as people think. He hasn't been given enough time to settle here and has actually still contributed a decent amount for someone who was thrown in to massively dysfunctional team. Anyone who is already dismissing him as a poor signing is being overly harsh and anyone who already thinks we should sell him is an idiot of the highest order.
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I'd largely agree with you on parts and I think a lot of the doubt over Mata is largely kneejerk since he was being drooled over at times when he first came, but the problem long-term will be whether he ever does settle in, and whether he does manage to find a permanent position he can play in. With (arguably) five top quality players in the team (Rooney, RVP, Mata, Falcao, Di Maria), it's looking likely that one or two of that five is going to be sacrificed in that they'll struggle to play regularly.

Rooney being named captain demonstrates that LVG sees him in his long-term plans, while the fact that Falcao and Di Maria have signed means that they're going to play prominent roles presuming they stay fit and perform. Because of that, I'd imagine that barring injuries and/or very poor form from the others, it'll be Mata or RVP who suffer from that. Mata needs to play in behind the striker, but I'm not sure he's going to get as many opportunities as he'd like.
 
Sterling is developing into a far more effective, polished and productive player than Januzaj and they are about the same age. It pains me to say it however. I'd like to see him given sufficient game time to develop but it seems as that won't be the case this season unless we change to a 4-3-3 or something similair, but that would mean dropping two of Rooney, Mata, Falcao and RVP which again, I don't see happening.

I rambled on a bit but yeah, IMO Januzaj has some catching up to do before we can actually have a serious debate as to who has the most potential, never mind who is currently better. Januzaj is one of the most exciting young talents in football but I haven't seen anything to suggest he has a 'higher ceiling' than Sterling as I see a lot of people on here saying. I think that's just the red-tinted glasses coming into play; it's way too early to tell. If Sterling was a United player, and Januzaj played for liverpool, we would be laughing at them for saying things like that.
 
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sullydnl said:
Two opinions:

1. This summer in no way proves that Woodward is excellent at his job. Signing first choice targets with as minimum an amount of fuss as possible is far better than making mega signings towards the end of the window. Until we see the former scenario happen I won't be convinced.

2. Mata is one of our best players and is nowhere near as likely to be dropped as people think. He hasn't been given enough time to settle here and has actually still contributed a decent amount for someone who was thrown in to massively dysfunctional team. Anyone who is already dismissing him as a poor signing is being overly harsh and anyone who already thinks we should sell him is an idiot of the highest order.
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I don't think anyone thinks Woodward is 'excellent' at his job. This summer has proven that he is probably capable of doing the job, however, as many of us had completely written him off in the last year. It will take a few more years for him to win us all over.
 
The defense is in reasonable shape and Jones, Smalling, and Rojo can develop into effective consistent defenders, dare I even say, world class, whatever that means.
 
If we relied on academy graduates as much as we have in the past we'd see a significant downgrade in Manchester United.
 
Januzaj will take longer to develop than many here think.
Especially if you're using Sterling as a comparison.
 
Gopher Brown said:
I don't think anyone thinks Woodward is 'excellent' at his job. This summer has proven that he is probably capable of doing the job, however, as many of us had completely written him off in the last year. It will take a few more years for him to win us all over.
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if Woody isnt the guy who is actually calling the shots on transfer targets, he is hardly to blame for anything. Neither this year nor last year. I am not 100% sure how much influence he has, but the general consent seem to be, that he is not interfering with the manager. If thats true the manager (=Moyes/van gaal) are to blame/complement for the transfer business.
He is only responsible for "overpaying", but even this is not really his fault.
Negotiations about transfers leave little room for moves. Preferences of both clubs are usually fairly transparent and set. The only thing that really helps to beat down the price is to have convincing alternatives and only the manager can actually identify alternatives.
 
Shaw is more likely to end up being a Coentrao-level player, than an Alaba level of player. Making the fee we paid for him laughable, as laughable as David Luiz' transfer fee.
 
Henrik Larsson said:
Shaw is more likely to end up being a Coentrao-level player, than an Alaba level of player. Making the fee we paid for him laughable, as laughable as David Luiz' transfer fee.
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Coentrao is a bad example to use IMO - because he's given Marcelo (many consider him not of the top LB's around - as sad as I think that is) a fair run for his money at Madrid. If Shaw turns out to be Coentrao level for us for the next 10 years, that fee won't be nearly as laughable as what PSG paid for Luiz.
 
Henrik Larsson said:
Shaw is more likely to end up being a Coentrao-level player, than an Alaba level of player. Making the fee we paid for him laughable, as laughable as David Luiz' transfer fee.
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Even if he does 'only' reach that level, the fee is still justified as we'd get many years of service from him.
 
Henrik Larsson said:
Shaw is more likely to end up being a Coentrao-level player, than an Alaba level of player. Making the fee we paid for him laughable, as laughable as David Luiz' transfer fee.
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The two fees aren't even comparable. United paid for a teenager who's already good and has the potential to be excellent while Luiz is a headless chicken who is only a decent defender even in his prime and always has a mistake in him.
 
Henrik Larsson said:
Shaw is more likely to end up being a Coentrao-level player, than an Alaba level of player. Making the fee we paid for him laughable, as laughable as David Luiz' transfer fee.
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Alaba is highly overrated, defensively he is often a liability for Bayern. He is just like Alba, going forward he is one of the best, but defensively its just poor. Watch the CL matches vs United and Real for example.
 
Well, most transfer fees aren't ever comparable. But Shaw is what, the 4th or 5th most expensive defender in the history of football? And the most expensive teenager ever?

Yet, like David Luiz, I think Shaw is never going to be one of the best (top 3 or top 5) left backs or defenders in the world, let alone one of the best players in the world. It just doesn't add up, and I only think a fee like we paid is justified for a player who is looks like he is going to be one of the best world (attacker, midfielder, defender I don't care about that). So that's why I think it's pretty laughable.

@sizzling sausages , @KiD MoYeS
 
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Henrik Larsson said:
Shaw is more likely to end up being a Coentrao-level player, than an Alaba level of player. Making the fee we paid for him laughable, as laughable as David Luiz' transfer fee.
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Completely disagree. He is a naturally excellent defender who reads the game superbly and is intelligent enough going forward to be very effective. He's probably the best teenage defender I've seen.
 
Sammyjunn said:
Alaba is highly overrated, defensively he is often a liability for Bayern. He is just like Alba, going forward he is one of the best, but defensively its just poor. Watch the CL matches vs United and Real for example.
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I dissagree and I can give you numerous CL performances where he was immense defensively. Louis van Gaal for example, who has worked with Alaba, stated last year I think, that he feels Alaba can be the first left back to win the Golden Ball and I can see why he said that.
 
Henrik Larsson said:
Shaw is more likely to end up being a Coentrao-level player, than an Alaba level of player. Making the fee we paid for him laughable, as laughable as David Luiz' transfer fee.
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You're only saying that because he's started his career here injured, which is a bit frustrating. I think he'll be excellent in the second half of the season at LB.
 
Henrik Larsson said:
I dissagree and I can give you numerous CL performances where he was immense defensively. Louis van Gaal for example, who has worked with Alaba, stated last year I think, that he feels Alaba can be the first left back to win the Golden Ball and I can see why he said that.
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Yeah, because the Ballon d'Or is all about attacking qualities.. That's why players like Dani Alves made team of the year on consistent bases, while Lahm was by far the better RB. (Not saying Lahm is a real defensive RB, but less going forward than Dani Alves). It's not a coincidence that Alaba wants to play as a midfielder, and that's what he originally is.
 
Mata or RVP (depending on their performance levels this season) should be sold to Juve in Exchange for Pogba next summer.
 
Sammyjunn said:
Yeah, because the Ballon d'Or is all about attacking qualities.. That's why players like Dani Alves made team of the year on consistent bases, while Lahm was by far the better RB. (Not saying Lahm is a real defensive RB, but less going forward than Dani Alves). It's not a coincidence that Alaba wants to play as a midfielder, and that's what he originally is.
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Well, ok, I still think Alaba is excellent defensively, as he has already shown in numerous matches.

Gopher Brown said:
You're only saying that because he's started his career here injured, which is a bit frustrating. I think he'll be excellent in the second half of the season at LB.
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No, I think Shaw will be a good left back for us, just like I think Coentrao is a pretty good left back. I just don't see him becoming top 3 or top 5 left backs/defenders in the world, and I don't think he's ever going to be top 15 players in the world (so, attackers, defenders, midfielders combined). Given he's the most expensive teenager ever, I think that doesn't make sense.
 
Henrik Larsson said:
Well, most transfer fees aren't ever comparable. But Shaw is what, the 4th or 5th most expensive defender in the history of football? And the most expensive teenager ever?

Yet, like David Luiz, I think Shaw is never going to be one of the best (top 3 or top 5) left backs or defenders in the world, let alone one of the best players in the world. It just doesn't add up, and I only think a fee like we paid is justified for a player who is looks like he is going to be one of the best world (attacker, midfielder, defender I don't care about that). So that's why I think it's pretty laughable.

@sizzling sausages , @KiD MoYeS
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You would need to double Shaw's fee if you wanted potentially the best players in a certain position these days. Look at Rodriquez's fee. Obviously he has done more than Shaw but they were still paying for potential mainly. Madrid paid a similar fee to Shaw's for Illarramendi, do you think he's going to be one of the best in the world in his position?
 
sizzling sausages said:
You would need to double Shaw's fee if you wanted potentially the best players in a certain position these days. Look at Rodriquez's fee. Obviously he has done more than Shaw but they were still paying for potential mainly. Madrid paid a similar fee to Shaw's for Illarramendi, do you think he's going to be one of the best in the world in his position?
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Perhaps that's true because the market is fecked up nowadays. The moment PSG will pay 100 million pounds for, a talent like, say, Adnan, and that becomes the 'norm', the Shaw deal would look much better. Same goes for inflation.

Illarramendi is interesting, I found on his wikipedia that he cost 32.2 million Euro, making it 25 million Pounds. I think we paid more than 25 million Pounds for Shaw, so then it wouldn't be true that we paid a similar fee for Shaw as Real did for Illaramendi. Also, midfielders are generally more expensive than left backs.

On the other hand, I think Shaw has more potential as a left back than Illaramendi has as a midfielder and he showed that potential at a younger age, so if you disregard the fact that midfielders are generally more expensive than left backs and assume that they were equally expensive (which doesn't seem to be the case, but I could be wrong because valuta/pound to Euro;s can be confusing), Real Madrids signing of Illa might be even more laughable than the Shaw signing. But that's a lot of if's and maybe's.
 
shivab said:
Mata or RVP (depending on their performance levels this season) should be sold to Juve in Exchange for Pogba next summer.
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Let it go, he is not coming back :lol:
 
shivab said:
:) i cant let it go. i cant believe we let him go.
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Nor can I but better players than him will come to our club in the future and better players will leave too, it's how football works I guess.
 
Henrik Larsson said:
I think you're confusing Shaw with Maldini.
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I think you're confusing your point for something that's supposed to make a semblance of sense. I said he's the best teenage defender I've seen. That has feck all to do with someone who was a teenager ages back.
 
Henrik Larsson said:
Well, ok, I still think Alaba is excellent defensively, as he has already shown in numerous matches.



No, I think Shaw will be a good left back for us, just like I think Coentrao is a pretty good left back. I just don't see him becoming top 3 or top 5 left backs/defenders in the world, and I don't think he's ever going to be top 15 players in the world (so, attackers, defenders, midfielders combined). Given he's the most expensive teenager ever, I think that doesn't make sense.
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Denis Irwin never set the world alight either, but he was a great player for us for a decade. Yes, yes £27m is a lot more than £650k, but if he's as good as Denis, we'll be laughing.
 
Henrik Larsson said:
Shaw is more likely to end up being a Coentrao-level player, than an Alaba level of player. Making the fee we paid for him laughable, as laughable as David Luiz' transfer fee.
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Coentrao is so underrated on here. If Shaw turns out to be a Coentrao level player it will be money well spent.
 
Carrick is done as an integral member of the team, in the sense that he'll never be as important or as good for United as parts of 09-12.
 
I have a few:

  • SAF needs to be pushed out of the club or have a significantly diminished role.

  • The 'class of 92' need to go unless one/many of them possess actual coaching talent.

  • Carrick is overrated.

  • I do not want ronaldo back at the club*

  • This should be rvp's last season

  • This has to be rooney's last season**

Good to get that off my chest.

*depends on how much he'll cost.
**not going to happen i know
 
Dracula said:
I have a few:

  • SAF needs to be pushed out of the club or have a significantly diminished role.

  • The 'class of 92' need to go unless one/many of them possess actual coaching talent.
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Why does he need to be pushed out the club though? Is there really any suggestion he's doing anything in his role that's detrimental to the club?

And on the second point, I'd assume that the players from the class of 92 who are in the coaching staff are probably decent coaches, or will become decent coaches. I doubt LVG would just have them there if they were terrible coaches.
 
Henrik Larsson said:
Well, most transfer fees aren't ever comparable. But Shaw is what, the 4th or 5th most expensive defender in the history of football? And the most expensive teenager ever?

Yet, like David Luiz, I think Shaw is never going to be one of the best (top 3 or top 5) left backs or defenders in the world, let alone one of the best players in the world. It just doesn't add up, and I only think a fee like we paid is justified for a player who is looks like he is going to be one of the best world (attacker, midfielder, defender I don't care about that). So that's why I think it's pretty laughable.

Completely agree. Ridiculous fee. We just really enjoy spending an absolute sh*tload on mediocre Englishmen. Remember when we had scouts? I can if I really think hard enough.
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crap. I really messed that up. The last paragraph of that previous comment is mine, to anyone who is confused.
 
Dracula said:
I have a few:

  • SAF needs to be pushed out of the club or have a significantly diminished role.

  • The 'class of 92' need to go unless one/many of them possess actual coaching talent.

  • Carrick is overrated.

  • I do not want ronaldo back at the club*

  • This should be rvp's last season

  • This has to be rooney's last season**

Good to get that off my chest.

*depends on how much he'll cost.
**not going to happen i know
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People seem to be making points in this thread for the sake of it.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
I think you're confusing your point for something that's supposed to make a semblance of sense. I said he's the best teenage defender I've seen. That has feck all to do with someone who was a teenager ages back.
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Well that makes me curious. You honestly think Shaw's performances for Southampton were better than for example Ramos was for Sevilla, or Varane or Alaba when they were Shaws age/teenagers?

I obviously disagree, but I've only seen Shaw for what, 15 full matches I think (and a lot of highlights and snippets), so like I said, that makes me curious (not sarcastic). Could you perhaps explain why you feel he is the best teenage defender you've ever seen?
 
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