United under LvG: verdict so far!

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Jammydodger7 said:
So then whats the problem? We're not playing great football yet we're 3rd, 5 points off second and we can only improve? :)
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The problem is we've gotten progressively worse as the season has gone on while the other around us are getting better. It only takes a couple of bad results (and right it's a question of when) and we'll be sitting outside the top 4.
 
ScarleyUtd said:
Of course it's the aim. But expecting to be Champions is different. In fact I don't believe we expected it even under Fergie.

I remember Fergie making some very strange tactical decisions and team selections. But he won. Remind you of anyone?

The style of play is missing, sure, but I think it will come.
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Not expected champions but expected to be serious contenders for it. Yea Fergie did make some very strange tactical decisions and selections but never over the course of a prolonged period. I doubt he would shoehorn strikers into midfield if he had Ander, Blind, Fellaini, Carrick and Cleverley at his disposal either.
 
akash02 said:
The problem is we've gotten progressively worse as the season has gone on while the other around us are getting better. It only takes a couple of bad results (and right it's a question of when) and we'll be sitting outside the top 4.
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If we finish outside the top 4 and the board choose to sack LVG, then fair enough, I hope it doesn't happen but he failed to meet expectations. However, whilst we're 3rd in the table I don't think people should be critising him as much as they are. He still needs time in my opinion, it's his first season and he's brought in a lot of new players, has had to adapt to a number of different formations to adapt to the ridiculous amount of injuries we've had and yet he's still meeting the top 4 objective. Of course we could be playing better but i think that will come with time.
 
LeftyBlaster said:
Not expected champions but expected to be serious contenders for it. Yea Fergie did make some very strange tactical decisions and selections but never over the course of a prolonged period. I doubt he would shoehorn strikers into midfield if he had Ander, Blind, Fellaini, Carrick and Cleverley at his disposal either.
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Seriously??
 
saivet said:
We're also 5 points from 7th. Hate to be a doom and gloom, but it can always get worse.

I've not been happy with LVG but if he gets us in the top 4 then fair play. We'll have to step it up massively next season though.
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We're also five points from second.

City won their first game since New Years Day yesterday btw. How's that for a run?
 
If someone had said at the start of the season that we'd be third come February, I'd have taken it.

However, it's the manner of our performances that are most disappointing. I hold my hands up and admit, I'm a little spoilt and the Premier League isn't easy, however I still expect us to look impressive at times. We're the exact opposite, slow, lethargic, not showing enough passion.

I was kind of hoping that with LvG at the helm, we'd be picking out precision passes for RvP to do belly-flop headers that magically loop over the keeper. That magic just isn't there right now.

Perhaps instant magic was too much to ask for. We looked great in pre-season but we've struggled to find form since then. If we scrape the top four and get to the FA Cup final, that would be a good starting point.
 
ScarleyUtd said:
Make up your mind. You just said it wasn't all luck!
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You need to learn to read.

Us being 3rd is not entirely down to luck....obviously though it's played a part.

Our recent good run of results owed a lot to luck.

Now, stop being a pedantic cnut ffs.
 
ScarleyUtd said:
I think Smalling gets a very easy ride on here. Yes he made some good challenges, but he's been voted a 7 for God's sake.

He is very rarely error free. Truly world class defenders are often so.
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TBF he got much better this season, he's got so much more confidence and that is the point, since the game against city he was excellent. Praise on him is absolutely deserved. And I don't think it's easy to get in game from the bench under such circumstances like playing with Evans who is really poor this season and error prone, young McNair who only excelled as RB against 4th league side at home, his positioning is really not good let alone his lack of pace and strength. He was struggling that game and Smalling was covering for him often. On the other side Rojo who is also rather centerback/left center back.

I don't think it's easy to go into game like that.. especially when you have Rooney as DM in front of you and you change to 4-4-2 formation which we played once or twice in 7months.. As I said he was brillint since City game but he had a good run of games and almost made a good partnership with Rojo and then boom is benched for no reason (he might have a knock) because van Gaal thinks brainless Jones himself error prone player should start ahead of him and because he can take corners obviously.

You need to play games to remove mistakes from your game more so when you're defender. These all are not any excuses it's just a fact..

I don't think that Terry would be error less in this chaos team and system whereas I agree with you that the top perfect defenders are mostly error free. In this particular game he made couple of errors but as I said it was all chaos nobody in midfield and attack helped holding the ball up or making a simple pass, so much pressure on our defense made of 4 center backs..

As for his his rating I don't know what's wrong? He got 7.2. I gave him 8, because I think it was closer to 8 than 7 as he scored 2 goals, if he didn't I would have given him 6.. but that's not the point he was the best defender that night and also a best player on the pitch. BTW I don't ever use this as argument but he got 10 on Whoscored which is also quite impressive as it was the first 10 for any player since 2009 (the tweet said last time it was Rafael against Wigan I hope)
 
I dont expect much to change until the end of the season. Louis seems to have luck on his side which might be enough to see us through. Its a struggle implementing 'philosophy' but I expect things to get much better next season.
 
Nervous times. I have faith in LvG and things are lot rosier than they were than this time last time season, but luck has played a huge part and it's going to be twitchy ass time for the rest of the season.

My big concern is that the confidence of these players is going to drop sooner or later or our luck will simply run out.
 
akash02 said:
A mixture of a semi decent run on our part, luck and everyone else being shite. Unfortunately that's not going to last for the entire season.
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from a probabilistic perspective, it is rather unlikely for everyone else to be shite at the same time but more likely that we are doing something right. Not pretty but right. And the corollary to "everyone else being shite" means we are not as shite which would then imply justify our position in the table. How did we get progressively worse yet move up the table?

When we lose - moan. Play 3-5-2 - moan (not the right formation). Play 4-4-2 - moan (not the right players). When we draw - moan (we should be doing better, clueless LVG). When we win - moan (but it was ugly and just luck). When we win convincingly - moan (but it was only QPR!).

We've just got to relax and be patient. Wait till the end of the season. How some fans can extrapolate that because we served up crap with Burnley means we are going to be annihilated by the tough fixtures ahead is bizarre. Well we lost 5-3 to Leicester early in the season so by that line of thought we should have been trounced by all the rest of the teams and be in 20th spot.
 
The Man Himself said:
Ya good points. Although Mourinho is more into tactics than SAF.
From reading the views of players who formerly played under LvG, he is not bad at man management either. It is just that the 'teacher' in him wants to educate everyone and he tries too hard at times. If one reads players' post match interviews, every time there is mention by players that they knew and were aware of exactly how game will go. So, LvG is doing his usual research well and is trying to prepare players accordingly. Unfortunately, the execution part is not as desired.
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I am not sure that Mourinho is more tactical than SAF. By tactics here, I mean Guardiola, Van Gaal, Wenger; managers whose attack follow a clear pattern. Setting up a team defensively is not a tactical achievement for me, it's more of a man management achievement in the sense that you have to convince talented players to sacrifice themselves for the good of the team.

You're absolutely right about the players post match interviews. I think that Van Gaal knows exactly what he is doing. The irony though is that this might mean nothing because of the nature of English football and English players. This super intellectual approach to the game is simply not English. Mourinho always makes the point that English football is so emotional which we as fans love but it also means that our players and fans are almost allergic to this less spontaneous approach. If you remember, even Barcelona -the best example of a methodical team to have ever played the game- have been met with more admiration than love in Britain. I am really excluding myself here, my favorite teams are the more spontaneous ones like ourselves in 99 or the late Dortmund team. However, I do realize that in order to create dominant power à la Milan 90' or the late Barcelona side, you need a much more tactical approach.
 
I'm obviously not privy to Van Gaal or United in general but my opinion for the past few months is that he simply doesn't care for quite a few of our players from a technical and disciplinary perspective. By that I mean, he's wrote off making us a 'great team' this season because there's too much crap in the squad and simply sees this as something similar to getting Holland through the World Cup. Ugly but effective. Points first, plaudits second.

I genuinely don't see the wheels coming off. We haven't looked out of place against any of the big teams we've encountered this season and that's why I don't particularly fear this upcoming run we have.

3rd/4th will be achieved and then next season, he'll go about finishing the necessary transfers (especially at the back) to allow us to grow into a more fluid side.
 
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Speak said:
100% this.

That's the way it's all balanced with van Gaal. He's so particular and picky that if he gets it right, it may well be very very right.
That's why I'm not quite as frustrated as everyone else at the odd team selections yet. Because there's still a chance that he sees something we all can't see. And if what he sees develops as he plans, he'll have a ridiculously meticulous team system.

I'm 80ish% underwhelmed and unconvinced that he'll pull up trees here, but a small part of me feels that maybe him being so picky and making all these weird decisions is going to lead to something if it 'clicks'.
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Cheers! I share the same sentiment about Van Gaal. The small part thing is not because I doubt him, it's more because I am not sure that the PL allow for this kind of approach as in Spain or other continental countries. Spanish teams line up against Barcelona pretty much the same way which meant Barcelona could perfect their triangles and movements week in week out which was a huge part of them being the power they eventually became. In England, you go one week to Stoke, and then host Arsenal and Swansea and travel to West ham and Burnley. Different challenges every week, you virtually can't build a consistent playing pattern. That is why Fergie's approach was extremely suitable to this league but also why I believe no British team has truly dominated Europe over the past 20ish years.
 
I've given up on us playing decent football under van Gaal, but I don't rate Pellegrini and at this rate we'll probably finish 2nd while playing just as bad as last year.
 
Verdict for me so far, is that we are in 3rd place and vying for a CL spot, which was the goal from the start.

Am I thrilled with the way we play, not at all, I'd like to see us attacking and creating more chances. However, if we achieve our goal of the top 4 than that is what we can judge by at the end of the season.
 
Everyone knew this was going to be a transitional season but many people don't seem to know what that means. It means often not playing great football and giving the players and coaching staff time to settle and find their feet. If we did play awesome attacking football all the time we'd be top of the table, which is something we're nowhere near ready for yet.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Feck knows tbh. I keep expecting us to suddenly hit our straps but it's never quite happened. We'll need to over the next month or it will all get very ugly.

On a side note, wasn't it exposed as a bit of a myth about us always finishing strongly under Fergie? I think I remember someone looking at stats and we actually tended to drop a fair few league points during the knockout stages of the CL (obviously not an excuse we have this season and hopefully an issue for Arsenal et al)
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Under SAF, we averaged 2.12 points per game for the last ten games of the season. We averaged 2.18 for the games before that point. So yes, the idea of a relatively stronger finish is a myth (although 2.12 points per game is still pretty damn strong).

Pogue Mahone said:
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As per your post on Monday - does somebody at Opta read the Caf?
 
dasty said:
Personally thinks that LVG is the only manager I can remember in recent times to be under such huge pressure despite losing only once in the past 17 games. Are the fans being too unrealistic or are they too spoilt?
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I think for the most part people are expecting every game for the other teams to roll over and us to play consistently beautiful football. It is not easy to win and keep winning at such a high level such as the PL. We are simply spoiled by the amazing consistency we had under Fergie and I think people are still expecting that level of consistency - for the most part.

Has the football been crap? Yes. With the quality of players we have one would think that LVG would be getting the team to play "better" football. That hasn't been the case, and by shoehorning players into the starting XI, LVG isn't making it easier on himself.

But it's February 12th, and we sit 3rd in the table and are making a good run in the FA Cup. All things considered, it has been a pretty good first season for a manager that has no experience managing in this league and also getting a team with issues that date back to Fergie's time to play decently well. He has had an unbelievable amount of injuries to deal with as well.

If van Gaal can maintain top four until the end of the season I think we will see great progress next season. He'll have a year of experience under his belt and he'll be getting more of his type of players in the summer so he can really start to put his name on this team. LVG has a fantastic track record and if the club sticks with him and gives him a proper chance, he'll keep elevating this team to greater levels.
 
kps88 said:
Everyone knew this was going to be a transitional season but many people don't seem to know what that means. It means often not playing great football and giving the players and coaching staff time to settle and find their feet. If we did play awesome attacking football all the time we'd be top of the table, which is something we're nowhere near ready for yet.
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Agreed. People need to be more patient and understand what it takes to have a completely new management staff come in and mold things to their liking. Things aren't going to be great all of the sudden over night.
 
akash02 said:
You need to learn to read.

Us being 3rd is not entirely down to luck....obviously though it's played a part.

Our recent good run of results owed a lot to luck.

Now, stop being a pedantic cnut ffs.
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Well stop talking s***e then
 
It’s difficult to assess him because although we are 3rd which I would have been delighted about the performances are very poor and he keeps repeating the same mistakes and playing strange teams and tactics. It is a fine line between success and failure, finish in the top 4 and I would be happy to overlook the performances but if we finish 5th or lower you will have to question if it is good enough. Ultimately I don’t see the point of sacking him at the end of the season but I don’t feel he is doing a great job at the moment despite the league position, persisting with RVP and Falcao up front, playing Rooney in midfield are just the wrong decisions no matter what his reasoning is.

Whether he just can’t see it, is too stubborn, too arrogant or is on the verge of a big turnaround and proving everyone wrong I can’t tell. I admire some of the work he has done and sympathise with a lot of the problems he had when he arrived in terms of the squad and starting the job late but something just isn’t right at the moment.
 
Revan said:
It is more having a world class keeper and the team plays tiki-takenaccio which gives the other team not much of the ball (at the same time, it minimizes the success of our attack too).
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I was being sarcastic :)
 
MDFC Manager said:
That's some luck.
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The 'goals conceded' stat. is impressive. But you only have to look at yesterday for an example of us being fortunate to have that record intact.
Fortunate that Ings wasn't expecting two defenders to allow a simple cross to pass between them and gift him a simple chance.
 
akash02 said:
The problem is we've gotten progressively worse as the season has gone on while the other around us are getting better. It only takes a couple of bad results (and right it's a question of when) and we'll be sitting outside the top 4.
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That really is cr@p. We started undeniably poorly - I would assume that you accept that the first 5 games were our low point. And, as has been well documented in this and other threads, over the last 15 games we've let in the fewest goals and picked up the most points in the PL. Makes it really hard to maintain a hypothesis that we're getting worse while everybody else is getting better.
 
ravelston said:
That really is cr@p. We started undeniably poorly - I would assume that you accept that the first 5 games were our low point. And, as has been well documented in this and other threads, over the last 15 games we've let in the fewest goals and picked up the most points in the PL. Makes it really hard to maintain a hypothesis that we're getting worse while everybody else is getting better.
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Until you watch us play that is.

You want to keep your head buried, feel free. We're NOT playing well by any stretch of the imagination.
 
It's becoming more and more obvious that the media smell blood in relation to LvG and some of the decisions he's been making. There seems to be an increasing amount of negative articles pointing out his flaws and highlighting what he's doing wrong.

Has a similar feel to it as when they eventually turned on Moyes, but given the fact that we're currently 3rd and not 7th, on the face of it it would appear unjustified but at the same time they only seem to be echoing the general feeling amongst the fans.
 
akash02 said:
Nah, you're the one taking offense at the suggestion that we might have been lucky. So either stop being a touchy bastard or just deal with it.
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Maybe you're not expressing yourself properly, because your posts are all over the place.
 
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