United appoint Dominic Jordan as director of data science
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
- Start date
Billy Beane knew this in 2002 so why are we looking into this in 2021?
Most exciting news I've heard for ages at the club. Other than Ronald's return.
Brentford's data analyst team used to set the odds for one of the big bookmakers.
I love it.
They will say McT or whomever loses the ball with 55% of his passes, so he is actually more useful to the opposition than us. Don't play him any more.
Martial spends an average of 45 seconds in the opponents penalty box, which is why he only scores one in a blue moon.
Then with facts you can change who you pick and how they should play.
I love it.
Brentford's data analyst team used to set the odds for one of the big bookmakers.
I love it.
They will say McT or whomever loses the ball with 55% of his passes, so he is actually more useful to the opposition than us. Don't play him any more.
Martial spends an average of 45 seconds in the opponents penalty box, which is why he only scores one in a blue moon.
Then with facts you can change who you pick and how they should play.
I love it.
My thoughts
@Cheimoon great post.
Because for too long we thought backing a manager with an open chequebook was the way to go in the post Fergie world. Our new managers also had their own data teams brought in. Would Fergie have gone for all these extra staff and departments? Would he have needed them? Probably not. When you’re winning leagues with patched together teams your man management and sports psychology is through the roof. He could also spot a winner and a leader a mile off. It takes a long time to build that aura and autonomy though. It’s not as simple as just get another big name manager and every player at the club will run through walls and adapt for him. it’s good to have these departments that will most likely transcend and supplement various managerial appointments. It would be great if we had long term but less well known transfer targets who statistically fit in with what we need instead of making knee jerk decisions. It’s the only way to guarantee excellent value in the long run.
Can’t believe they didn’t give it Butty
Just playing catch up with Brentford 
For this to be an impactful appointment you need a few things in place including but not limited to:
For this to be an impactful appointment you need a few things in place including but not limited to:
- Firstly access to decent and (if possible) unique data sets
- Secondly an understanding of what that data can tell you and what it can't
- Thirdly and probably most importantly - the buy in of all involved, no point doing the hard work on data and stats if Ole is just going to dismiss it out of hand or the recruitment team are just going to sneer at any data driven transfer targets.
Just playing catch up with Brentford
For this to be an impactful appointment you need a few things in place including but not limited to:
- Firstly access to decent and (if possible) unique data sets
- Secondly an understanding of what that data can tell you and what it can't
- Thirdly and probably most importantly - the buy in of all involved, no point doing the hard work on data and stats if Ole is just going to dismiss it out of hand or the recruitment team are just going to sneer at any data driven transfer targets.
I saw a pretty good video on your boys again during the week. Huge emphasis on set pieces which I didn’t realise. Like many many extra hours to get the edge there. Liverpool poached your throw in coach? Liverpool are fully embracing it getting any edge they can. You guys are my second club now. I’m not even into Maths at all but it’s fascinating!
There was a thread about this guy a while back. If I remember correctly, he doesn't work for any club exclusively, he does sessions occasionally for a number of clubs, internationally. (I think he is Danish himself.) Though if memory serves, he did say that he doesn't work for two clubs in the same league, so maybe that's the poaching part you mentioned?
From what I've read, there is already a data team. This is just a new director of data. It's unclear to me if he is replacing someone, or if this is a new position to add weight and bodies to the existing team.My thoughts
Murtough's description of how we currently use data:
The difference in emphasis seems to be it being further integrated into what's actually happening on the pitch in real time.
The new guy's description of how data can be used:
The difference in emphasis seems to be it being further integrated into what's actually happening on the pitch in real time.
I bet his parents were NBA fans
Just playing catch up with Brentford
For this to be an impactful appointment you need a few things in place including but not limited to:
- Firstly access to decent and (if possible) unique data sets
- Secondly an understanding of what that data can tell you and what it can't
- Thirdly and probably most importantly - the buy in of all involved, no point doing the hard work on data and stats if Ole is just going to dismiss it out of hand or the recruitment team are just going to sneer at any data driven transfer targets.
Brentford are my second team now as well, hope it goes well for you in the PL.
Unique data sets IMO are unnecessary - there's a lot of research going into understanding football through data, we have pressing models, possession models, expected value add through player action models etc. etc and plenty of high quality sources to get this sort of data from.
The Barca folks (Javi Fernandez @JaviOnData) have done amazing work on possession models e.g., here's how they view a single possession.
Some more cool graphics from his talk for a deeper dive, linked to 22:06 where the model comes together.
Liverpool, City have been on the cutting edge of data science as well.
What we desperately need are folks that can use publicly available models / best practices and apply them on United games.
It only applies to non-players, duh.
Everyone knows this. Ole and Fletcher and the other dross can (money, innit) attract A players. (This is indeed very odd - but, again, money innit).
But they can't attract A data dudes (it's impossible). You need A data dudes to attract A data dudes (money innit, doesn't apply here, nobody knows why).
If your tea lady is a solid B...phew, you can forget about attracting anyone close to A to assist her: more like C or D (they'll use inferior brands, etc.).
Thank you for breaking this down for me. I was blind but now I see. I was so naive!
Everything is in place from the understanding of the data sets to having a department with a dedicated team of 5 already working within the division which is a team of 5 led by Mick Court. But I'm not sure there's a buy-in with the manager and I personally believe we won't take advantage of the good work John Murtough has done behind the scenes until the recruitment department and the Head Coach work in unison. And for that we need a coach who is accustomed to working in such a environment.Just playing catch up with Brentford
For this to be an impactful appointment you need a few things in place including but not limited to:
- Firstly access to decent and (if possible) unique data sets
- Secondly an understanding of what that data can tell you and what it can't
- Thirdly and probably most importantly - the buy in of all involved, no point doing the hard work on data and stats if Ole is just going to dismiss it out of hand or the recruitment team are just going to sneer at any data driven transfer targets.
The likes of Amad Diallo and Hannibal (recruitment department signings) look as if they're gonna be wasting their formative years under a manager who is afraid to look outside his comfort zone IMO.
Brentford are my second team now as well, hope it goes well for you in the PL.
Unique data sets IMO are unnecessary - there's a lot of research going into understanding football through data, we have pressing models, possession models, expected value add through player action models etc. etc and plenty of high quality sources to get this sort of data from.
The Barca folks (Javi Fernandez @JaviOnData) have done amazing work on possession models e.g., here's how they view a single possession.
Some more cool graphics from his talk for a deeper dive, linked to 22:06 where the model comes together.
Liverpool, City have been on the cutting edge of data science as well.
What we desperately need are folks that can use publicly available models / best practices and apply them on United games.
I think the unique data sets and unique use of the data is where you are going to make the bigger advances against the competition though. It's something our DOFs point to as an advantage we have - access to the Smartodds data that other clubs don't have.
I hope we are here to stay in the PL
That's my worry about it working at united too tbh you really do need buy in from the whole club if it's really going to have the impact it is designed to. At Brentford Mark Warburton got us into the play offs in our first season back in the Championship however he wasn't fully bought into the way we were going about things and leaked to the media that he wasn't happy/claimed he was getting sacked so his contract wasn't renewed. Not saying Ole should be got rid of but...
The same happened at Liverpool with Brendan Rodgers according to Liverpool correspondents. Rodgers didn't buy into the methods of the recruitment department which was led by Michael Edwards. Rodgers was eventually sacked and when Klopp came in, he immediately embraced Edwards and his team and allowed them to identify transfer targets, which has helped the club end 30 years of pain which has culminated in them winning the biggest prizes in the game.
According to reports, one of the main reasons Klopp took the job at Liverpool was after seeing the work that had been done by the likes of Edwards in the recruitment department, which he saw as something that would help him achieve the success he's achieved.
I also read an interview (I think with Graham) that described a conversation between Graham and Klopp, in which Klopp was impressed with how well Graham understood how Dortmund's poor performance in Klopp's final season there had more to do with an unlikely combination of bad luck than poor performance. Klopp was all like 'see, you saw it too when watching our matches!' But Graham hadn't seen a minute from it, he derived it all from the data.
I might be mixing up details here, but it was something like that.
I'm not sure how it worked at Dortmund when it comes to their structure. But at United and Liverpool, it seems both clubs did the scouting, followed by collating the gathered information which then turned into a list of names which was then passed on to the guys working in the analytics departments at both clubs respectively.
So at United you have the scouts (region dependent) who would then report to Marcel Bout who would collate the gathered information, run his own rule over it before filtering the process and passing the information and list of names to Mick Court and his team who work in the analytics department, who do the number crunching .
It's also important to note that Bout has worked with some of the greats when it comes to coaching, in Jupp Heynckes and LVG who both had him as their match analyst, so his understanding of the actual intricacies of the game is at the elite level.
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Thank you. Reason above why the Cafe is still worth reading. Great post amidst a bunch of agenda driven, United negative rubbish
The discussion would probably follow similar lines
Ole: Carricky why is this new guy saying mean things about Scotty? Everyone loves Scotty, he runs alot and he's Sir's favourite player.
Carrick: You don't have to listen to him. Never forget whose at the wheel.
Ole: Thanks Carricky. I am at the wheel. Fantastic.
Sorry if I wasn't clear - I meant that Ian Graham (Liverpool's Director of Research) had checked the data on those Dortmund games, and was therefore able to comment on them in a way that made it seem to Klopp like Graham had been watching those games. I looked it up, and this comes from an NYT article that I once read through a link someone posted in another thread on the forum. Here is the article, and this is the relevant bit (right at the start):
I brought this up to complement your comment on Klopp appreciating Edwards' work at Liverpool, as this conversation will Graham will have been another thing that helped Klopp see the value of the work of Graham and his team. I am sure Ole will have had similar conversations at United.
Btw, I recommend reading the full NYT article to anyone curious about the power of data in football, and about the role of a club's data science team. As you were discussing with @el diablorojo, there are great articles on Brentford's work as well.
Cheers! (Also @ivaldo.) I must admit I work at a data organization (although I'm not statistician myself), so obviously I am biased towards the subject.
First we wanted to do it the Bayern Way and keep everything in house….then it was the Barca way now we trying the Brentford way!
He looks a bit evil from the picture they used. Did a colleague of his have the job in the bag and then suddenly die recently?
Feck ya get in you data crunching bastard!!
The data shows mcfred are shite ole
Revenge of the nerds!
My bad, I just got out of bed not long ago due to working nights. And I've read your post again after having a cup of Coffee and it makes sense.Sorry if I wasn't clear - I meant that Ian Graham (Liverpool's Director of Research) had checked the data on those Dortmund games, and was therefore able to comment on them in a way that made it seem to Klopp like Graham had been watching those games. I looked it up, and this comes from an NYT article that I once read through a link someone posted in another thread on the forum. Here is the article, and this is the relevant bit (right at the start):
I brought this up to complement your comment on Klopp appreciating Edwards' work at Liverpool, as this conversation will Graham will have been another thing that helped Klopp see the value of the work of Graham and his team. I am sure Ole will have had similar conversations at United.
Btw, I recommend reading the full NYT article to anyone curious about the power of data in football, and about the role of a club's data science team. As you were discussing with @el diablorojo, there are great articles on Brentford's work as well.
Cheers! (Also @ivaldo.) I must admit I work at a data organization (although I'm not statistician myself), so obviously I am biased towards the subject.
How do you take your coffee?
Has he switched Ole off and on yet?
I like it Black.
In fairness we bought Sancho, Varane and Ronaldo this summer.
Can’t really complain about transfer spending at the moment
summed up perfectly. But this appointment seems promising to me, irrespective of Ole stays or goes (which he should)
I know, Liverpool get theoretical physicists and we get some college drop out
If Ole gets cold hard data that proves McFred doesn't work and VDB should be playing until we sign a better alternative that's good.
He might get cold hard data that proves he's the number one issue with our teams performances.