UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

How do you intend to vote in the 2019 General Election if eligible?

  • Brexit Party

    Votes: 30 4.3%
  • Conservatives

    Votes: 73 10.6%
  • DUP

    Votes: 5 0.7%
  • Green

    Votes: 23 3.3%
  • Labour

    Votes: 355 51.4%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 58 8.4%
  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 3 0.4%
  • Sinn Fein

    Votes: 9 1.3%
  • SNP

    Votes: 19 2.8%
  • UKIP

    Votes: 6 0.9%
  • Independent

    Votes: 1 0.1%
  • Other (BNP, Change UK, UUP and anyone else that I have forgotten)

    Votes: 10 1.4%
  • Not voting

    Votes: 57 8.3%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 41 5.9%

  • Total voters
    690
  • Poll closed .
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It's staggering how bad the remain campaign has been from start to finish. Swinson is a moron putting party politics above Brexit.

She couldn't give a shit about Brexit, she just wants to bolster the ranks so she can try and hold the balance of power and cosy up to Boris.

This is why they have come out with outright cancel Brexit just to get a few more votes because in reality a poicy like that will never fly even in the pie in a sky Lib Dem majority government.
 
It's staggering how bad the remain campaign has been from start to finish. Swinson is a moron putting party politics above Brexit.
I mean yes, but this issue goes both ways.
 
I mean yes, but this issue goes both ways.
Would Corbyn have agreed a pact? I dunno tbh. He is pig headed, so maybe not, but she flew in so quick refusing to work with Labour.
She couldn't give a shit about Brexit, she just wants to bolster the ranks so she can try and hold the balance of power and cosy up to Boris.

This is why they have come out with outright cancel Brexit just to get a few more votes because in reality a poicy like that will never fly even in the pie in a sky Lib Dem majority government.
That would kill the LibDems off for good I guess.
 
It's short termism because you're only looking in monthly increments. Over 10, 20, 50 years - Why dilute the stategic spending power of a nation into lots of small charities?

What if not enough people donate to a particular charity sector over the next 10 years? Would you let these sectors stagnate? What if some of these sectors are actually vital for society to function? It's ridiculous.

Yes it's supposed to be short term, as the people who first mentioned paying higher tax to support different areas, believed that would come in due time. In the meantime I'm suggesting paying the money you'd like to pay into those taxes into a charity of your choice. This was never a do this for the rest of your life type thing.
 
Would Corbyn have agreed a pact? I dunno tbh. He is pig headed, so maybe not, but she flew in so quick refusing to work with Labour.

That would kill the LibDems off for good I guess.

People forget in time. They’ve already forgotten most of the 2010-2015 betrayals.
 
Would Corbyn have agreed a pact? I dunno tbh. He is pig headed, so maybe not, but she flew in so quick refusing to work with Labour.

That would kill the LibDems off for good I guess.
Nah, way too tribal. The problem of the dumb electoral system at work yet again.
 
The Brexit shenanigans was one thing, but the odiousness has actually managed to go up a level on this election run-in.
I want to ignore it til it goes away, as it's making me both angry and depressed, yet I am drawn to it by morbid compulsion. Seriously hope I can shake it by the time I go on hols next month.
 
The Brexit shenanigans was one thing, but the odiousness has actually managed to go up a level on this election run-in.
I want to ignore it til it goes away, as it's making me both angry and depressed, yet I am drawn to it by morbid compulsion. Seriously hope I can shake it by the time I go on hols next month.
You won’t ignore it, it’s too captivating.
 
The Lib Dems are economically closer to the Tories.

But never let it be said that wasn't a mistake.

I agree. So Swinson lied when she said she made a mistake in voting with the Torries.

The key point here for the mess we are in is the Economic crisis was brought on by Financial Institutions that gambled...and lost.
But like a bunch of people who had a great party, the bill was given to people who were not even at the party.
The clever trick here is if the gamble had paid off those people who ended up with the bill would not have enjoyed the gains.
The government knew this. Yet instead of holding these institutions responsible the rotten assets were absorbed by the government and transferred to the people.
Those institutions should have been merged/restruttered or even in the short term nationalised to make them lean.

Importantly those same people are Still benefiting from the pain of so many.

The middle ground choice has disappeared. Drastic measures are needed to bring back the economy to some way where millions do not fall into penury.

The charge of Socialism against Labour is simply not valid.

For those who want to vote Tory/Lib/Dems, they must therefore be honest and say "They are not affected. Therefore they do not care".
 
I mean yes, but this issue goes both ways.

It goes both ways - but then Labour ultimately are never going to be compelled to give anything near as much away because they're the much bigger parliamentary party, always are the biggest party out of the two, and barring an absolute collapse are going to be so again after the election...again, by quite a margin. Yeah, it sucks that we don't have a PR voting system and it's shite that people who want to vote Lib Dem may only be winning the Tories a seat by doing so, but ultimately it's just reality that the Lib Dems don't have as much bargaining power in this exchange...and if they were in Labour's parliamentary position their actions would be seen as baffling if they were conceding seats to Labour.

But the issue is that there seems to be a handful of people who don't seem to really understand this. I saw someone on Twitter arguing today whether there'd be a possibility of Swinson leading a Labour-Lib Dem coalition. As if this is something that would be even remotely tenable if her party emerged with, say, 40 MP's, which looks likely to be their ceiling in this election. And I absolutely understand why some people don't want to vote Labour, and sympathise with anyone who doesn't want to vote tactically and will just go for the party they like best, because that's how politics should ideally work. But if the Lib Dems want any sort of alliance here, they need to accept they're the ones who'd be making the vast majority of concessions. And I'm not sure they realise that.
 
I’m not trying to win them over and I’m not rich. I know this is a massively left leaning labour supporting forum but some of the moral outrage spewed on anyone who thinks slightly differently is crazy.

I think the terms Right and Left have lost much of their meaning nowadays. They serve as distractions and are best ignored.

That said, you've pointed out a failing shared by many of those on the so-called Left. Namely that they tend to take the view that simply by holding the opinions they have and being on the side of what they deem progress, that they themselves are moral. And that those who don't hold said views are themselves immoral. The effect of this on rational and reasoned debate is obvious, because it invariably becomes about who and what you are.
 
JC's policies are too socialist. He will never win a GE. I think that Farage pulled out because his maintainer (Aaron Banks) threatened to pull the plug on his finances. He probably sent him in his bedroom without dinner a couple of times before he toed in line
 
Thanks.

Haven't worked in the UK since the late 1970s and left full time in the early 1980s but still admire and would fight for the NHS as the best there is because it treats everyone the same and for ' free '.

It's only real drawback, as I see it, is that the choice of treatment and quality of treatment is left to the NHS itself to decide for each individual needing its help and asistance and varies from GP to GP, from hospital to hospital, and from hospital to hospital even in the same city. And if you live in, say, Manchester, it's difficult to get / have an NHS operation at a hospital in, say, Bristol, which might have a better set of Doctors and Specialists and specialise in the treatment you need more than the staff and hospital in Manchester.

@Paul the Wolf might have a different view, but in the absence of an NHS equivalent I'm reasonably OK with how the system works down here - basically free for those that can't afford the equivalent of private health insurance, but the insurance is normal for most employed people and now costs us two about € 270 per month because of the treatments last year and the year before. Not too sure how that compares with NHS costs these days because I don't think anyone can accurately work out how much their individual contributions to the NHS are as it's all wrapped up in total PAYE and NIC without specific identification of the amount going to the NHS.

On the other hand, for that we have almost 100% choice in all medical treatments - where, when, and by whom, from GP to outpatient treatment to complicated and complex surgery while the NHS doesn't always give that choice.

By the way....The French Health System is just as dependent on ' Imported ' medical staff as the NHS, and mostly from Eastern and Southern Europe and Nth Africa.
Free it is not. You said as much when you mentioned paye contributions.
 
The Brexit shenanigans was one thing, but the odiousness has actually managed to go up a level on this election run-in.
I want to ignore it til it goes away, as it's making me both angry and depressed, yet I am drawn to it by morbid compulsion. Seriously hope I can shake it by the time I go on hols next month.

It’s difficult to ignore isn’t it?

Ultimately I think the odious nature of this election is here to stay. The very nature of our politics, politicians and the electorate has changed over the last 3 years and the worry for me is that going forward, there will be no lessening of the animosity and vitriol we’re seeing now.

Like it or not, Brexit has almost shattered our system and new precedents have been set regularly. People or politicians don’t debate now, just fire at the enemy over the trench walls. Awful.
 
It’s difficult to ignore isn’t it?

Ultimately I think the odious nature of this election is here to stay. The very nature of our politics, politicians and the electorate has changed over the last 3 years and the worry for me is that going forward, there will be no lessening of the animosity and vitriol we’re seeing now.

Like it or not, Brexit has almost shattered our system and new precedents have been set regularly. People or politicians don’t debate now, just fire at the enemy over the trench walls. Awful.
That isn't really new though. Brexit was brought about in exactly that fashion in the first place.
 
It goes both ways - but then Labour ultimately are never going to be compelled to give anything near as much away because they're the much bigger parliamentary party, always are the biggest party out of the two, and barring an absolute collapse are going to be so again after the election...again, by quite a margin. Yeah, it sucks that we don't have a PR voting system and it's shite that people who want to vote Lib Dem may only be winning the Tories a seat by doing so, but ultimately it's just reality that the Lib Dems don't have as much bargaining power in this exchange...and if they were in Labour's parliamentary position their actions would be seen as baffling if they were conceding seats to Labour.

But the issue is that there seems to be a handful of people who don't seem to really understand this. I saw someone on Twitter arguing today whether there'd be a possibility of Swinson leading a Labour-Lib Dem coalition. As if this is something that would be even remotely tenable if her party emerged with, say, 40 MP's, which looks likely to be their ceiling in this election. And I absolutely understand why some people don't want to vote Labour, and sympathise with anyone who doesn't want to vote tactically and will just go for the party they like best, because that's how politics should ideally work. But if the Lib Dems want any sort of alliance here, they need to accept they're the ones who'd be making the vast majority of concessions. And I'm not sure they realise that.
I'm not sure if that's the main issue, twitter is just a strange place. You'd think that in an election where the Tories stand a good chance of expanding their lead and putting through a shit deal to leave, it would've focused minds a little and people on both sides would've put aside their century old mutual antipathy just for a bit. Instead we've just got the small parties doing some minor cooperation that might gain 6 seats if they're lucky
 
The Brexit shenanigans was one thing, but the odiousness has actually managed to go up a level on this election run-in.
I want to ignore it til it goes away, as it's making me both angry and depressed, yet I am drawn to it by morbid compulsion. Seriously hope I can shake it by the time I go on hols next month.

This is exactly how I feel. I'm drawn to this thread like a moth to a flame and can't switch off from politics even though everything seems to be pulling against what I believe in.
 
It goes both ways - but then Labour ultimately are never going to be compelled to give anything near as much away because they're the much bigger parliamentary party, always are the biggest party out of the two, and barring an absolute collapse are going to be so again after the election...again, by quite a margin. Yeah, it sucks that we don't have a PR voting system and it's shite that people who want to vote Lib Dem may only be winning the Tories a seat by doing so, but ultimately it's just reality that the Lib Dems don't have as much bargaining power in this exchange...and if they were in Labour's parliamentary position their actions would be seen as baffling if they were conceding seats to Labour.

But the issue is that there seems to be a handful of people who don't seem to really understand this. I saw someone on Twitter arguing today whether there'd be a possibility of Swinson leading a Labour-Lib Dem coalition. As if this is something that would be even remotely tenable if her party emerged with, say, 40 MP's, which looks likely to be their ceiling in this election. And I absolutely understand why some people don't want to vote Labour, and sympathise with anyone who doesn't want to vote tactically and will just go for the party they like best, because that's how politics should ideally work. But if the Lib Dems want any sort of alliance here, they need to accept they're the ones who'd be making the vast majority of concessions. And I'm not sure they realise that.

I do wonder if Vince Cable had remained leader whether or not he'd have been more conciliatory towards Labour and whether or not he'd have worked together with Corbyn. Swinson seems to be doing her best to turn off tradiitonal Labour voters from potentially voting Lib Dem (I was considering voting LD a few months ago but now there's zero chance).
 
What have the centrists ever done
Minimum wage.... Well yeah obviousley
Investment in the NHS.... Ok that
Increasing university numbers.... Goes without saying
900000+ pensioners taken out of poverty... Fair enough
40000+ new teachers... Yeah ok I'll give you that
Introducing civil partnerships... And that
Overachieving Kyoto targets... Well of course
Decreased homelessness by over 70%... Yeah I suppose
Free prescriptions for cancer patients... Hummm admittedly
Free nursery care for 3 and 4 year olds... Yes yes
Ban on grammar schools... Ok
Reduced youth unemployment by 75%... Allright
Record low a+e waiting times... Yeah but other than that what did the centrists ever do...

Achieved a lot more than Corbyn ever has because he understood the basic premise that you had to win power to implement policies
Most people in the UK are centrist of one leaning or the other. This is why Labour didn't win the last election even though they were handed a virtual open goal.
 
What do people think about the Labour attack line of constantly mentioning a trade deal with Trump? From my perspective surely agreeing a trade deal with the largest economy in the world post Brexit is a very good thing? Trump has also always been an anglophile, so it would seem good to take advantage of a US President who seems more positively disposed towards us than Obama was for example. Where is the negative here?

P.S. I think Obama is a far superior human and President to Trump, just that Trump could be useful to the UK in this instance.
 


This is what happens when the the Liberal Democrats stop being the Liberal Democrats and become the remain party. I ended my membership for this reason, they have completely abandoned their intellectual space.
 
What do people think about the Labour attack line of constantly mentioning a trade deal with Trump? From my perspective surely agreeing a trade deal with the largest economy in the world post Brexit is a very good thing? Trump has also always been an anglophile, so it would seem good to take advantage of a US President who seems more positively disposed towards us than Obama was for example. Where is the negative here?

P.S. I think Obama is a far superior human and President to Trump, just that Trump could be useful to the UK in this instance.

Thought comparisons were made in context of privatising the NHS a La Trump, which wouldn't go down so well.
 
What do people think about the Labour attack line of constantly mentioning a trade deal with Trump? From my perspective surely agreeing a trade deal with the largest economy in the world post Brexit is a very good thing? Trump has also always been an anglophile, so it would seem good to take advantage of a US President who seems more positively disposed towards us than Obama was for example. Where is the negative here?

P.S. I think Obama is a far superior human and President to Trump, just that Trump could be useful to the UK in this instance.

Imagine I need insulin to survive and the only person I can get it off has a well earned reputation for stiffing people for as much as he can get. Obviously I'm going to be willing to pay an awful lot to get the insulin I need. The other side is going to make damn sure I pay too.
 
What do people think about the Labour attack line of constantly mentioning a trade deal with Trump? From my perspective surely agreeing a trade deal with the largest economy in the world post Brexit is a very good thing? Trump has also always been an anglophile, so it would seem good to take advantage of a US President who seems more positively disposed towards us than Obama was for example. Where is the negative here?

P.S. I think Obama is a far superior human and President to Trump, just that Trump could be useful to the UK in this instance.

I think that's a naive view of Trump and the US. I don't believe that a trade deal with the UK is a priority for the US and Trump in all this, rather that it is really about weakening the EU because it's an economic behemoth that the US can't bully. Trump may well be history by the time we're actually in a position to even negotiate a deal and if his administration is ever in a position to do so, it will not do us any favours, especially given the exceptionally weak negotiating position we will be in if we leave under Boris's deal or No Deal. That's before you get into the questions about if we want to lower our trading standards and risk the NHS being consumed by American companies.
 
Thanks.

Haven't worked in the UK since the late 1970s and left full time in the early 1980s but still admire and would fight for the NHS as the best there is because it treats everyone the same and for ' free '.

It's only real drawback, as I see it, is that the choice of treatment and quality of treatment is left to the NHS itself to decide for each individual needing its help and asistance and varies from GP to GP, from hospital to hospital, and from hospital to hospital even in the same city. And if you live in, say, Manchester, it's difficult to get / have an NHS operation at a hospital in, say, Bristol, which might have a better set of Doctors and Specialists and specialise in the treatment you need more than the staff and hospital in Manchester.

@Paul the Wolf might have a different view, but in the absence of an NHS equivalent I'm reasonably OK with how the system works down here - basically free for those that can't afford the equivalent of private health insurance, but the insurance is normal for most employed people and now costs us two about € 270 per month because of the treatments last year and the year before. Not too sure how that compares with NHS costs these days because I don't think anyone can accurately work out how much their individual contributions to the NHS are as it's all wrapped up in total PAYE and NIC without specific identification of the amount going to the NHS.

On the other hand, for that we have almost 100% choice in all medical treatments - where, when, and by whom, from GP to outpatient treatment to complicated and complex surgery while the NHS doesn't always give that choice.

By the way....The French Health System is just as dependent on ' Imported ' medical staff as the NHS, and mostly from Eastern and Southern Europe and Nth Africa.

The French system probably costs more than the NHS and is funded differently but is free to those who need it. Prescriptions are free. Vast improvement on the NHS although there are parts of France that suffer from lack of doctors and nurses. As you say you can go to see a specialist in any hospital throughout France.
To see a GP costs €25 - about €17 is refunded by the state and the rest would be refunded by your mutual top up insurance. All employees mutual top up insurance is paid by the company they work for.
 
Imagine I need insulin to survive and the only person I can get it off has a well earned reputation for stiffing people for as much as he can get. Obviously I'm going to be willing to pay an awful lot to get the insulin I need. The other side is going to make damn sure I pay too.


Am I wrong to believe that the US is the UK's biggest Trading Partner aleady ?

Why not take that one step further while the EU and Trump spit at each other - Trump's the sort of loony who'd do a ' better-than-you ' Trade Deal with the UK just to piss off Brussels.


On the other hand....

That's before you get into the questions about if we want to lower our trading standards and risk the NHS being consumed by American companies.

I keep hearing this.

What exactly will the American companies be taking control of in the NHS ? Is it front line services or back office services or logistics services or what ?

Not being confrontational, just curious because I didn't hear these worries / complaints when German owned DHL was in charge of procurement for the NHS and making a profit on bulk buying and then selling and distributing to the NHS about 50% of everything the NHS buys, from € multi-million body scanners to packets of toilet rolls.

Edited to add that German owned DHL used to ( may still do for all I know ) operate a similar procurement / distrubution service for the reluctant guests staying in HM Prisons.
 
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Am I wrong to believe that the US is the UK's biggest Trading Partner aleady ?

Why not take that one step further while the EU and Trump spit at each other - Trump's the sort of loony who'd do a ' better-than-you ' Trade Deal with the UK just to piss off Brussels.


On the other hand....



I keep hearing this.

What exactly will the American companies be taking control of in the NHS ? Is it front line services or back office services or logistics services or what ?

Not being confrontational, just curious because I didn't hear these worries / complaints when German owned DHL was in charge of procurement for the NHS and making a profit on bulk buying and then selling and distributing to the NHS about 50% of everything the NHS buys, from € multi-million body scanners to packets of toilet rolls.

They want to abolish the NHS expenditure cap on prescription drugs. The average American spends $1200 a year on prescription drugs. Do we need anymore reasons beyond that?
 
Am I wrong to believe that the US is the UK's biggest Trading Partner aleady ?

Why not take that one step further while the EU and Trump spit at each other - Trump's the sort of loony who'd do a ' better-than-you ' Trade Deal with the UK just to piss off Brussels.

You are not wrong when talking about individual countries, but are off by an order of magnitude if you are talking about individual trading blocks. Losing our FTA with Europe and all the countries that have an FTA with it for the prospect of gaining one with the US doesn't seem to me to be a particularly sensible trade. It's also true that each FTA that the EU has so far negotiated has been from a position of strength. Going forward we will have less economic power with which to extract concessions in any replacement deals we might attempt to negotiate.

I agree that Trump, in isolation, is the sort of loony who might do a 'better-than-you' trade deal to piss off Brussels. Sadly he is also absolutely the sort of loony that would stiff his granny for the tiniest percentage. It seems fairly apparent that he sees the world as zero-sum and believes that the only evidence of him winning worth a damn is witnessing his negotiating partner suffering. I also think that US policy is essentially predatory when it comes to striking trade deals. It uses its size and weight to open up target economies and make further extraneous demands in return for that sweet, sweet $$$. At the same time it seeks to protect its own markets from being undercut. This isn't particularly strange or anything - it's just a feature of capitalism and competition and in any negotiation between the US and UK it's not difficult to ascertain where the competitive advantage lies.

Edit: I'd also be interested to know just how much of our trade with the US comes here before being shipped on to mainland Europe and how much of that might be damaged once we leave the customs union.
 
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They want to abolish the NHS expenditure cap on prescription drugs. The average American spends $1200 a year on prescription drugs. Do we need anymore reasons beyond that?


You mean thay want to scrap whichever NHS body / committee it is which negotiates prices with the drug companies before they're added to the list of drugs which are allowed to be prescribed by the NHS, or they want to scrap the NHS fixed price prescription scheme ?
 
JC's policies are too socialist. He will never win a GE.

I must admit I was deeply suspicious of the ‘he can turn it around on the campaign trail’ stuff based on just one example, but I’m starting to wonder. Corbyn is already improving substantially now he’s able to talk about what he wants to talk about, instead of having to react to events (which he’s absolutely terrible at).

Obviously a lot is going to depend on what happens in the country and world between now and Dec 12th, but at the moment I wouldn’t be at all surprised by another semi-decent Labour performance and another hung parliament. Especially considering the Tories appear to be continuing their inept campaigning of recent years.

It’s still shit because given the state of the country Labour really should be miles ahead, but I don’t see a total Labour collapse. Which might actually be a dangerous thing, as it could lead Corbyn to cling on after the election.
 
You mean thay want to scrap whichever NHS body / committee it is which negotiates prices with the drug companies before they're added to the list of drugs which are allowed to be prescribed by the NHS, or they want to scrap the NHS fixed price prescription scheme ?

This is what the NHS Confederation report has to say about it:

Regarding pricing, the USA objectives seek to “ensure that government regulatory reimbursement regimes are transparent, provide procedural fairness, are non-discriminatory, and provide full market access for US products”. Currently the UK has a voluntary pricing and access scheme (VPAS), an agreement between the Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC), NHS England and the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry (ABPI) which covers policy for patient access and pricing of branded medicines in the UK and runs until the end of 2023. Under the scheme, NHS expenditure on branded medicines is capped, ensuring predictability of expenditure for the NHS on the entire branded medicines bill.

One can assume that such a scheme would not meet the USA’s objectives, which if achieved would result in higher prices for medicines and pass on costs to both patients and the NHS.

The USA objectives seek provisions on protection of intellectual property rights that reflect current USA legal standards, which are generally more favourable to rights holders than EU standards. Longer patents, extended data exclusivity rights and stringent enforcement measures against perceived infringements would favour companies who develop and market branded medicines. This could delay patient access to cheaper generic medicines, with knock-on impacts (supply and cost pressures) for health and social care services.

The WTO TRIPS (trade-related aspects of IPR) agreement allowing (in certain circumstances) generic versions of medicines still under patent can be obstructed by clauses in FTAs restricting the use of TRIPS flexibilities to emergencies only, affecting patient/health system access to cheaper generic medicines.
---------------------------------------
(Below is a direct link to the pdf)
https://www.nhsconfed.org/-/media/C...-and-future-free-trade-agreements23Sept19.pdf
 
It’s still shit because given the state of the country Labour really should be miles ahead, but I don’t see a total Labour collapse. Which might actually be a dangerous thing, as it could lead Corbyn to cling on after the election.
I think momentum need to keep him round.

They need somebody to throw under the ehrc bus when the report is published

Momentum will need to keep the blame off themselves so they can focus on their true enemies... The blairite scum
 
I think momentum need to keep him round.

They need somebody to throw under the ehrc bus when the report is published

Momentum will need to keep the blame off themselves so they can focus on their true enemies... The blairite scum
:lol:

The state of this.
 
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