UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[The Purley King]

I'm going to ask a stupid question, seem to be plenty of knowledgeable people on here that might be able to answer.
Also, disclaimer before I ask anything, I will be voting Tory, because its better for me and my family than Labour. I shouldn't think my vote will matter though as we've had Tom Brake (Lib Dem) for quite a few years in Sutton and I'm pretty sure he had a decent majority last time out that is unlikely to change. I'm not really interested in explaining more about my choice, but feel free to flame away about my personal qualities if you like.

Isn't the point of a democracy that whoever gets the most votes wins and gets to enact their policies? If everyone voted in their own self interest and picked the party that was best for them, then overall the end result should be that the most amount of people are happy. I've no problem with that, seems like the fairest way to do things. No doubt there will be some people who's financial position dictates they should be voting Tory but who will actually vote Labour due to naturally leaning to the left. Gut feel is that the opposite would happen much more rarely.

From what I've read on here, the Tories are despicable and uncaring, their policies only go to increasing the financial divide between the 'few' and the 'many'. By definition, there must be more of the 'many' rather than the 'few'.

If the above is all true (it seems like it should be, but happy to hear arguments to the contrary), then why aren't the Labour party going to win? If their policies do actually benefit the many and not the few, then surely they should win easily?

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Dude, I may not be voting how you’d like but there’s no need to mock my life or work ethic.

I was self employed in my 20’s, got divorced in my 30’s and lost the lot! I’ve had to struggle to get back to where I am.

I got a job and have worked my arse off to live and to provide for my kids so I view my sloth like progress and what I have now with pride. Yeah, I’ve gone without and and can now finally feel comfortable. I’m fortunate.

Like I said, I have two houses, one was inherited but that 2nd house has changed my life. Yes I had to lose my parents to get here but my life is much easier now. Why on earth would I vote for a party that would actively stop me from making the same difference to my children’s life when I die?

Where have Labour said they will do any of the things you say they will? Honestly, the only thing I've found is one of a number of commissioned reports that McDonnell said he's looking at and will be consulting on. There doesn't seem to be any concrete proposal or position at all.

 

[P-Nut]

@The Purley King there is a minimal amount of disabled people etc in the country, compared with able bodied people. If everyone voted in their own self interest and gave no thought to them at all, we'd basically be shunning them and saying feck em, I'll be fine.

I'll personally be voting Labour, which if they win will result in massive upheaval for me as they plan to renationalise the railways where I work, meaning I'll have to reapply for my job and agree to a completely new set of terms and conditions. The ones I'm on at the moment mean a wage rise above the national average every year, strict protections on jobs etc. But thinking benefit of the country wise it makes more sense than voting Tory, which would protect my own interests, both from a job prospective, and also a young home owner point of view as well.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

This makes zero sense, if you're happy paying more taxes then donate the amount you're willing to pay more to a charity you deem most in need of it.

Instead of the government deciding where your money goes you get to decide yourself.

This makes zero sense. People want to pay more tax because they think public services need greater investment. This required investment is likely beyond the scale of one's own charitable donation so pushing for a hike in income tax seems like the preferable solution.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Mental gymnastics well under way, where are the manifestos?

 

[Igor Drefljak]

Dude, I may not be voting how you’d like but there’s no need to mock my life or work ethic.

I was self employed in my 20’s, got divorced in my 30’s and lost the lot! I’ve had to struggle to get back to where I am.

I got a job and have worked my arse off to live and to provide for my kids so I view my sloth like progress and what I have now with pride. Yeah, I’ve gone without and and can now finally feel comfortable. I’m fortunate.

Like I said, I have two houses, one was inherited but that 2nd house has changed my life. Yes I had to lose my parents to get here but my life is much easier now. Why on earth would I vote for a party that would actively stop me from making the same difference to my children’s life when I die?

To be fair, I don't think he's mocking your life.
He's mocking your life in the eyes of the Tory party and how they feel about the general population, which they don't give a shit about.

 

[Igor Drefljak]

Isn't the point of a democracy that whoever gets the most votes wins and gets to enact their policies? If everyone voted in their own self interest and picked the party that was best for them, then overall the end result should be that the most amount of people are happy.

It's all lies. They tell you what they want you to hear

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Isn't the point of a democracy that whoever gets the most votes wins and gets to enact their policies? If everyone voted in their own self interest and picked the party that was best for them, then overall the end result should be that the most amount of people are happy. I've no problem with that, seems like the fairest way to do things. No doubt there will be some people who's financial position dictates they should be voting Tory but who will actually vote Labour due to naturally leaning to the left. Gut feel is that the opposite would happen much more rarely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

 

[P-Nut]

This makes zero sense. People want to pay more tax because they think public services need greater investment. This required investment is likely beyond the scale of one's own charitable donation so pushing for a hike in income tax seems like the preferable solution.

Yes you wouldn't complain when income tax is increased in the future, but in the meantime you'd surely donate the excess you're willing to pay to a charity of your choice right?

 

[Volumiza]

To be fair, I don't think he's mocking your life.
He's mocking your life in the eyes of the Tory party and how they feel about the general population, which they don't give a shit about.

I am under no illusion concerning the Tories.

The thing is, I have one big wish and to some of you on here it is clearly a selfish one, maybe it is. If Labour implemented the policies that JMcD says are ‘in consultation’ then that one big wish of mine is as good as gone. That’s not targeting rich people any more. That’s targeting a shit load of normal families.

I have said many times, I am not against income tax rises to help pay for better social care but IHT or death tax or whatever you want to call it is an unpopular policy for a lot of voters across both parties.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Yes you wouldn't complain when income tax is increased in the future, but in the meantime you'd surely donate the excess you're willing to pay to a charity of your choice right?

I can't speak for anyone else, but that's what I do, yes.

 

[P-Nut]

I can't speak for anyone else, but that's what I do, yes.

Exactly, but it didn't come across that way from the other poster. In fact it was a bit of a mess considering he said earlier he's only just managed to stay out of his overdraft regularly earlier, but is willing to pay more income tax which would surely send him spirally back into his overdraft

 

[Igor Drefljak]

I am under no illusion concerning the Tories.

The thing is, I have one big wish and to some of you on here it is clearly a selfish one, maybe it is. If Labour implemented the policies that JMcD says are ‘in consultation’ then that one big wish of mine is as good as gone. That’s not targeting rich people any more. That’s targeting a shit load of normal families.

I have said many times, I am not against income tax rises to help pay for better social care but IHT or death tax or whatever you want to call it is an unpopular policy for a lot of voters across both parties.

From a selfish perspective, it would also hinder my future somewhat as well as my partners parents are wealthy to an extent.
But you could argue this.

The money your children lose in IHT, could go towards funding the NHS, which could save their lives in the future.
Although Labour would take a big chunk of their inheritance, if they earn minimum wage, on a monthly basis, they could be earning more money than under a Tory Goverment.
Sure they may save an extra 20, 30, 40k with the Tory Inheritance tax, yet have to pay 100k for a heart bypass in the future when it's not available through the NHS

(I'm by no means an expert on this topic btw, so my post could get easily picked apart )

 

[Hammerfell]

I am sorry that you have a disability, but I fear your bitterness is clouding your judgement. I assure you, if you were in the same position as Volumiza, you would think the same way as him.

What a sad, patronizing post.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

I am under no illusion concerning the Tories.

The thing is, I have one big wish and to some of you on here it is clearly a selfish one, maybe it is. If Labour implemented the policies that JMcD says are ‘in consultation’ then that one big wish of mine is as good as gone. That’s not targeting rich people any more. That’s targeting a shit load of normal families.

I have said many times, I am not against income tax rises to help pay for better social care but IHT or death tax or whatever you want to call it is an unpopular policy for a lot of voters across both parties.

As far as I can work out McDonnell was saying that it was "one of a number of ideas" that were out for consultation and even then he was referring to the concept of a lifetime gift tax rather than the actual numbers the report proposed. I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that if any proposal does make its way into the manifesto later this week it will be a far weaker and more palatable version than whatever it was that the Daily Express was screeching from the rooftops.

 

[Shamwow]

Exactly, but it didn't come across that way from the other poster. In fact it was a bit of a mess considering he said earlier he's only just managed to stay out of his overdraft regularly earlier, but is willing to pay more income tax which would surely send him spirally back into his overdraft

You're getting me mixed up with the other guy I was debating with. It was him who said the overdraft thing and me who is willing to pay more income tax.

 

[The Purley King]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

Interesting page, thanks for replying. I think I'll do some reading tonight.

@P-Nut - you made a similar point about minorities, thanks for the response.

It still doesn't answer the question about why Labour don't look like they'll win though. The tyranny of the majority could equally be said to apply if Labour won a landslide?
Guess there isn't an easy answer. No doubt lies and general likeability come into it too.

 

[Shamwow]

I'm going to ask a stupid question, seem to be plenty of knowledgeable people on here that might be able to answer.
Also, disclaimer before I ask anything, I will be voting Tory, because its better for me and my family than Labour. I shouldn't think my vote will matter though as we've had Tom Brake (Lib Dem) for quite a few years in Sutton and I'm pretty sure he had a decent majority last time out that is unlikely to change. I'm not really interested in explaining more about my choice, but feel free to flame away about my personal qualities if you like.

Isn't the point of a democracy that whoever gets the most votes wins and gets to enact their policies? If everyone voted in their own self interest and picked the party that was best for them, then overall the end result should be that the most amount of people are happy. I've no problem with that, seems like the fairest way to do things. No doubt there will be some people who's financial position dictates they should be voting Tory but who will actually vote Labour due to naturally leaning to the left. Gut feel is that the opposite would happen much more rarely.

From what I've read on here, the Tories are despicable and uncaring, their policies only go to increasing the financial divide between the 'few' and the 'many'. By definition, there must be more of the 'many' rather than the 'few'.

If the above is all true (it seems like it should be, but happy to hear arguments to the contrary), then why aren't the Labour party going to win? If their policies do actually benefit the many and not the few, then surely they should win easily?

Kind of ironic that a tory who prioritises themselves when voting would have the name Purley King.

 

[Shamwow]

Interesting page, thanks for replying. I think I'll do some reading tonight.

@P-Nut - you made a similar point about minorities, thanks for the response.

It still doesn't answer the question about why Labour don't look like they'll win though. The tyranny of the majority could equally be said to apply if Labour won a landslide?
Guess there isn't an easy answer. No doubt lies and general likeability come into it too.

The massive bias from the media doesn't help. Look at this for instance.

 

[Volumiza]

I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that if any proposal does make its way into the manifesto later this week it will be a far weaker and more palatable version.

like I said earlier, I’m looking forward to reading both manifestos and ultimately I’ll make a judgement based on what is in them. But just because something isn’t in a manifesto doesn’t mean it won’t become policy further down the line.

 

[Volumiza]

In fact it was a bit of a mess considering he said earlier he's only just managed to stay out of his overdraft regularly earlier, but is willing to pay more income tax which would surely send him spirally back into his overdraft

In my 30’s I was struggling to pay mortgage and bills and was regularly in my overdraft come the end of the month. That improved as I got promoted at work and now I am doing ok so could, and would, pay more tax. Nothing messy there, it’s just life.

 

[Shamwow]

You could always volunteer to pay more or donate to worthy causes if you have loads of spare cash.

Why are so many twats assuming that I don't? I can only assume projection. I have no money left until payday this month because I used everything I had left over to buy warm clothes for homeless people last week. It's fecking cold out there, I don't know how anyone can just walk past people shivering on the streets and not try to do anything about it if they can.

The only savings I have are in case for some reason brexit means I can't get hold of the medical stuff I need. For instance I need about £400 worth of intermittent catheters a month just to be able to piss.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

like I said earlier, I’m looking forward to reading both manifestos and ultimately I’ll make a judgement based on what is in them. But just because something isn’t in a manifesto doesn’t mean it won’t become policy further down the line.

Sure, that's fair. At the moment it genuinely seems to me like just one of a variety of proposals that Labour are looking at. It's got more exposure because it's the most radical, but i'm not sure we should take that to be a reliable barometer of its likelihood. If such a proposal was as unpopular as you say (and I agree it would be unpopular) then you'd hope any consultation would reflect that and that would inform future policy.

I guess we wait and see.

 

[esmufc07]

Why are so many twats assuming that I don't? I can only assume projection. I have no money left until payday this month because I used everything I had left over to buy warm clothes for homeless people last week. It's fecking cold out there, I don't know how anyone can just walk past people shivering on the streets and not try to do anything about it if they can.

The only savings I have are in case for some reason brexit means I can't get hold of the medical stuff I need. For instance I need about £400 worth of intermittent catheters a month just to be able to piss.

Sorry to hear about your situation.

I donate to a few charities each month but like you I would much rather pay more tax each month so that the government can (hopefully) spend it on an abundance of things in this country that is crying out for investment.

 

[Sweet Square]

Dude, I may not be voting how you’d like but there’s no need to mock my life or work ethic.

This

To be fair, I don't think he's mocking your life.
He's mocking your life in the eyes of the Tory party and how they feel about the general population, which they don't give a shit about.

Like I said, I have two houses, one was inherited but that 2nd house has changed my life. Yes I had to lose my parents to get here but my life is much easier now. Why on earth would I vote for a party that would actively stop me from making the same difference to my children’s life when I die?

Do your children want to go to university ? Wouldn't it better for their lives if it was free ?

Do they do use the NHS ? Wouldn't it be better if it was full funded ? What happens if one of your kids is in a accident and needs care for the rest of their life(One of my brothers is disabled and without the NHS we would be screwed and we aren't by any means poor) ?

And of course climate change or in other words - Why on earth would I vote for a party that would actively stop me from making the planet a habitable place for my children’s life when I die ?

Again I would understand if you had a estate or any real wealth but the fact is you don't. You rely on the British state just as much as anyone else but when it comes down to actually committing to this, you would rather line up with a party who not only holds you in contempt but wants nothing more than to destroy the social programs you are in favour of and someday your children might need.

 

[Shamwow]

Sorry to hear about your situation.

I donate to a few charities each month but like you I would much rather pay more tax each month so that the government can (hopefully) spend it on an abundance of things in this country that is crying out for investment.

I'm mostly cool with my situation but thanks for your kinds words and not being a complete twat about it like some posters on here who I won't name @Sassy Colin

I don't think anyone who makes the charity over tax argument has really thought it through. Just like when Cameron pushed the big society - remember that? Why are the Tories never held to their promises I wonder.

 

[Sassy Colin]

You know why this is a bad argument? Because I want to pay more taxes.

You gave the impression that, because of your disability, you were barely able to support yourself, I didn't realise that you are actually loaded.

Here is your answer:

This makes zero sense, if you're happy paying more taxes then donate the amount you're willing to pay more to a charity you deem most in need of it.

Instead of the government deciding where your money goes you get to decide yourself.

We have a lot a high net worth clients, who, believe it or not, give a lot of money to charity (yes, rich people are actually surprisingly generous, who knew). The partners also give substantial amounts to charity. In fact, every single bill that goes out of the office has a small amount added on which goes to a charitable trust set up by the practice which the partners match pound for pound.

If you have spare cash, you are better off giving it to charities who are more likely to spend it on actually helping people who really need it, rather than the Government wasting huge chunks of it on crap.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

You gave the impression that, because of your disability, you were barely able to support yourself, I didn't realise that you are actually loaded.

Here is your answer:



We have a lot a high net worth clients, who, believe it or not, give a lot of money to charity (yes, rich people are actually surprisingly generous, who knew). The partners also give substantial amounts to charity. In fact, every single bill that goes out of the office has a small amount added on which goes to a charitable trust set up by the practice which the partners match pound for pound.

If you have spare cash, you are better off giving it to charities who are more likely to spend it on actually helping people who really need it, rather than the Government wasting huge chunks of it on crap.

By logical extension the responsibility to support those in need in society should come from charity not Government. Surely you see the problem there?

 

[villain]

"Give your money to the Charities, the Government wastes it."
"I will vote for that same Government, however"

Literal madness.

 

[The Purley King]

The massive bias from the media doesn't help. Look at this for instance.

yep I can see that being a factor. The guardian and mirror are left leaning papers though? Thinking about it there are more which lean right.

 

[Sweet Square]

Why are so many twats assuming that I don't?

A core part of British conservatism is assuming everyone else is just as selfish and greed obsessed as they are. Whenever I talk to tories they have a rather depressing and miserably view of both the world and the people in it.

The main hatred of the Corbyn Labour project isn't some ideological stance against Socialism(They can't understand even the most basic of socialist ideas, let alone have the ability to hate them)but the idea that Britain and actually the world could be a better place.

 

[Pexbo]

yep I can see that being a factor. The guardian and mirror are left leaning papers though? Thinking about it there are more which lean right.

Guardian are politically close centre these days, culturally still fairly far left.

 

[Abizzz]

I'm going to ask a stupid question, seem to be plenty of knowledgeable people on here that might be able to answer.
Also, disclaimer before I ask anything, I will be voting Tory, because its better for me and my family than Labour. I shouldn't think my vote will matter though as we've had Tom Brake (Lib Dem) for quite a few years in Sutton and I'm pretty sure he had a decent majority last time out that is unlikely to change. I'm not really interested in explaining more about my choice, but feel free to flame away about my personal qualities if you like.

Isn't the point of a democracy that whoever gets the most votes wins and gets to enact their policies? If everyone voted in their own self interest and picked the party that was best for them, then overall the end result should be that the most amount of people are happy. I've no problem with that, seems like the fairest way to do things. No doubt there will be some people who's financial position dictates they should be voting Tory but who will actually vote Labour due to naturally leaning to the left. Gut feel is that the opposite would happen much more rarely.

From what I've read on here, the Tories are despicable and uncaring, their policies only go to increasing the financial divide between the 'few' and the 'many'. By definition, there must be more of the 'many' rather than the 'few'.

If the above is all true (it seems like it should be, but happy to hear arguments to the contrary), then why aren't the Labour party going to win? If their policies do actually benefit the many and not the few, then surely they should win easily?

And here I was thinking democracy was a way for a nation to keep it's integrity, values and face in times of a lying and conniving Bojomopingthefloorwithoutachievinganything prime minister. But then again some might feel well represented by lies, alternative facts, empty promises and just general bad behavior and tactlessness.

It's not always just about your wallet and yourself for everyone. Guess some might just enjoy being Donald Trump's sidekick's sycophant.

 

[Sassy Colin]

By logical extension the responsibility to support those in need in society should come from charity not Government. Surely you see the problem there?

I think you are kind of missing my point.

 

[Shamwow]

You gave the impression that, because of your disability, you were barely able to support yourself, I didn't realise that you are actually loaded.

Here is your answer:



We have a lot a high net worth clients, who, believe it or not, give a lot of money to charity (yes, rich people are actually surprisingly generous, who knew). The partners also give substantial amounts to charity. In fact, every single bill that goes out of the office has a small amount added on which goes to a charitable trust set up by the practice which the partners match pound for pound.

If you have spare cash, you are better off giving it to charities who are more likely to spend it on actually helping people who really need it, rather than the Government wasting huge chunks of it on crap.

I can't believe I'm getting my personal circumstances with a real life sociopath but whatever. I don't think I gave the impression that I'm barely able to support myself financially and I certainly didn't intend to. Maybe you can point out where I did. I'm not high net worth, but I do earn significantly more than average. I don't own a house or any other significant assets. I donate my leftover cash to charities or needy individuals, apart from what I stockpile in case the Tories/brexit/whatever means I can't get hold of my essential medical supplies from the NHS as mentioned earlier. Yes, I'm lucky that I can do so - a lot of disabled people aren't in that position and have to rely on benefits. Why don't you have a read through some of the threads on here and see if you are capable of empathy: https://community.scope.org.uk/categories/universal-credit.

Also, are you aware that charities also have overheads and that not all of the money that they receive goes directly to causes. Are you aware that individuals aren't going to be nearly as capable of making the decision of where money is most needed on a national scale as effectively as the government?

 

[Ubik]

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Why are so many twats assuming that I don't? I can only assume projection. I have no money left until payday this month because I used everything I had left over to buy warm clothes for homeless people last week. It's fecking cold out there, I don't know how anyone can just walk past people shivering on the streets and not try to do anything about it if they can.

The only savings I have are in case for some reason brexit means I can't get hold of the medical stuff I need. For instance I need about £400 worth of intermittent catheters a month just to be able to piss.

Who is assuming that you don't? You are the one who said you wanted to pay more tax - if you haven't got the money how do you pay more tax - what is this obnoxious attitude from Corbyn supporters?

 

[The Purley King]

And here I was thinking democracy was a way for a nation to keep it's integrity, values and face in times of a lying and conniving Bojomopingthefloorwithoutachievinganything prime minister. But then again some might feel well represented by lies, alternative facts, empty promises and just general bad behavior and tactlessness.

It's not always just about your wallet and yourself for everyone. Guess some might just enjoy being Donald Trump's sidekick's sycophant.

You are making my point for me. If there are lots of people like me who vote mainly on the basis Of how it affects them personally then surely labour would win if the alternative is so awful?

 

[SteveJ]

The latest Lib Dem success story:

 

[Abizzz]

You are making my point for me. If there are lots of people like me who vote mainly on the basis Of how it affects them personally then surely labour would win if the alternative is so awful?

This isn't about your wealth, your car or your stock account. This election is a turning point in British politics. If it doesn't deliver a hung parliament it will set Britain's path for the next couple of decades, maybe even half a century. This election is about Britain's character and place in the world.

Boris has neither.