UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

How do you intend to vote in the 2019 General Election if eligible?

  • Brexit Party

    Votes: 30 4.3%
  • Conservatives

    Votes: 73 10.6%
  • DUP

    Votes: 5 0.7%
  • Green

    Votes: 23 3.3%
  • Labour

    Votes: 355 51.4%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 58 8.4%
  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 3 0.4%
  • Sinn Fein

    Votes: 9 1.3%
  • SNP

    Votes: 19 2.8%
  • UKIP

    Votes: 6 0.9%
  • Independent

    Votes: 1 0.1%
  • Other (BNP, Change UK, UUP and anyone else that I have forgotten)

    Votes: 10 1.4%
  • Not voting

    Votes: 57 8.3%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 41 5.9%

  • Total voters
    690
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
Ashfield and bassetlaw would be 2 seemingly realistic options

Traditional labour constituency but around 70% leave and both ex mining areas and some reluctance amongst some people to vote conservative

Both current MP's standing down I think John Mann and Gloria Di perio

Bassetlaw was the constituency I grew up in, and where my family still live. Sure there’s a lot of Leave supporters, but those ex-mining areas are very Labour and I’d be very surprised if a right wing party like the BP could win them.

John Mann quitting won’t do Labour any favours because he was very popular, but if Labour lost it that would be a serious shock. They’ve held it since 1929. Also their main competition in the constituency are the Tories (slightly under 5000 behind last election), so if anyone were going to take it away from Labour they’d be the ones most likely to do so.
 
I’ve already been told off in this thread for thinking that a soft Brexit vs remain referendum will be hugely divisive. I don’t see it as closing the question at all. I actually think it will energise the Brexit movement and we’d end up with an opposition party with a Brexit identity at its core. I just think it’s a bad policy.
Which is fair enough but thats different than thinking Labour have no policy.

Also what option does close the Brexit question ?

If he did negotiate a new deal (pretty big if) and it goes to a second ref, is he supporting his deal or remain?
The Labour position at the moment is to stay neutral a future referendum but let Labour MP's campaign for the deal or remain. Also Labour might have in their next manifesto, giving EU citizens the right to vote(Which would hand Remain the win).


I think everyone understands the theory - it's the practice that bothers people. When will his manifesto appear?
I don't actually know(If anyone does that would be great).

The last one was leaked :lol:
 
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Labours plan is not to simply raise tax on the 'rich' as you put it. It is much more comprehensive which will raise money to invest in people and create more opportunities for those who currently have very little.

To summarise I've added the quote below;

"If the Labour party comes to power, the rates of income tax will increase to 45% for income over £80,000 and 50% over £123,000. Companies would pay a levy for any staff earning over £330,000. CGT will increase at least to 18% basic rate and 28% higher rate. Inheritance tax will be replaced by a lifetime gift tax at income tax rates on any gifts over £125,000. Landowners will be taxed more heavily while tenants will be better off. Corporation tax will be 26%. Large companies would need to transfer up to 10% of their shares to a fund for their employees and the nation. The GAAR will be revamped."

But ultimately the intention has to be there to create more opportunities across all demographics in the UK. The intention has to be there to close tax loopholes and generate more tax from rich businesses in order to fund public services. Ideologically that intention is not there with the Tories. The opposite is true. They believe the 'free market's' will average themselves out to create a fair system. It obviously doesn't, but they don't care because they benefit personally from the inequality.


Smells like communism to me. This year 10%, next year 20%, etc....Do you have a Pension Fund that you've paid into for the past 30 years or so ?? Guess what - it would be worth 10% less overnight and then another 10% next year. Maybe you can afford that and don't mind - the more normal or average person who does and has doesn't want to lose 10% of their Pension Fund for some ideological Socialist Utopia, and that's why Corbyn will never be elected as the UK's PM with policy like that.

Of course, all Tories benefit personally from the poor. It's a well known fact repeated endlessly amongst Labour Party members and supporters, so it must be true.
 
How are you going to structure that though? Revenue is not an indicator of profit, plus your costs might be booked in another country etc...


A Revenue Tax takes no account of Profit, but of the amount of sales activity in the country.

Precisely because, and as you say, the actual profit often bears no relation to the Taxable Profit.

A typical example is, say, for the UK subsidiary of, say, Amazon to include in its Taxable Profit a fee which it pays to a non-UK Amazon company for the use of the Amazon Name and Trademark. Not saying Amazon actually do this, I don't know, but it's something most multi-nationals do. This is allowed in most Developed Countries, as they all seem to do it to each other, and certainly is part of the UK's tax allowable cost deductions when calculating UK Taxable Profits.

Hence a Revenue Tax - cuts through some, not all, of this sort of tax chicanery.
 
Smells like communism to me. This year 10%, next year 20%, etc....Do you have a Pension Fund that you've paid into for the past 30 years or so ?? Guess what - it would be worth 10% less overnight and then another 10% next year. Maybe you can afford that and don't mind - the more normal or average person who does and has doesn't want to lose 10% of their Pension Fund for some ideological Socialist Utopia, and that's why Corbyn will never be elected as the UK's PM with policy like that.

Of course, all Tories benefit personally from the poor. It's a well known fact repeated endlessly amongst Labour Party members and supporters, so it must be true.

Almost one in five MP's are Landlords(The tories have the most landlord MP's at 87)
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/almost-one-in-five-mps-are-landlords

2018 - PM among cabinet members earning money as landlords
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...g-cabinet-members-earning-money-as-a-landlord

Theresa May’s Husband’s Capital Group Is Largest Shareholder in BAE, Shares Soar Since Syrian Airstrikes
https://www.globalresearch.ca/there...e-shares-soar-since-syrian-airstrikes/5636857

Oh and speaking of communism, Karl Marx in 1852

“The Tories in England long imagined that they were enthusiastic about monarchy, the church, and the beauties of the old English Constitution, until the day of danger wrung from them the confession that they are enthusiastic only about ground rent.
 
Almost one in five MP's are Landlords(The tories have the most landlord MP's at 87)
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/almost-one-in-five-mps-are-landlords

2018 - PM among cabinet members earning money as landlords
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...g-cabinet-members-earning-money-as-a-landlord

Theresa May’s Husband’s Capital Group Is Largest Shareholder in BAE, Shares Soar Since Syrian Airstrikes
https://www.globalresearch.ca/there...e-shares-soar-since-syrian-airstrikes/5636857

Oh and speaking of communism, Karl Marx in 1852


So all landlords benefit from the poor ?? And all landlords are Tories ??

C'mon....That's bollocks and you know it. Didn't Bliar have about five houses at one time, or was that just his wife ??


And just for balance, how the Marxists live while wanting to confiscate 10% of your Pension Fund and screw private landlords.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...lic-riverside-SECOND-HOME-Norfolk-Broads.html

Yeah....I know it's the Daily HateMail, but it seems the Guardian and Morning Star haven't covered this story yet ( can't imagine why ) so I can't link to those two newspapers.
 
Negotiate a Labour brexit deal with the eu and then a second referendum between the labour deal and remain, all within the first 6 months of a labour government.

Honestly its really not that difficult to understand.
Will the Labour deal include freedom of movement, and will they tell us whether it will or not before the election?
 
So all landlords benefit from the poor ?? And all landlords are Tories ??

C'mon....That's bollocks and you know it.
Sorry where did I say all landlords are tories(Although they would be stupid not to be) ? I simply pointed out that 1 in 5 MP's are landlords, with the tories topping the list at 87(There are more than 87 landlords in Britain). That Theresa May Cabinet which included the current PM earned money from renting property and that Theresa May and her husband benefit from weapons sales.

Didn't Bliar have about five houses at one time, or was that just his wife ??


And just for balance, how the Marxists live while wanting to confiscate 10% of your Pension Fund and screw private landlords.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...lic-riverside-SECOND-HOME-Norfolk-Broads.html
Yeah I'm not the biggest fan of Tony Blair and also did you see the state of McDonnell ''second home''(Its a best a crappy little boat house) but more importantly how does any of this take away from my point about Tory MPs being landlords ?

I see this argument quite lot from people - You say the tories are bad, well here's a list of bad things about the labour party........ But we are having a ''discussion'' on how the tories(In this case Tory MP's)benefit from the poor, its literally what Trump voters(e.g. All Republicans) do to deflect criticism away from Trump - ''But the Democrats did this'' or ''Clinton said this''.

What the labour party does isn't really an answer.

but it seems the Guardian and Morning Star haven't covered this story yet ( can't imagine why ) so I can't link to those two newspapers.

The Guardian and The Morning Star have two completely different ideologies. The Guardian is a liberal paper where as The Morning Star is a left wing paper. Also do you not think MP's being landlords is a bigger news story than an MP owning a second home ? And maybe again more importantly you seem fine with Tory MP's being landlords(Or at least at ease enough not to disagree with it), why are you then angry at a Labour MP owning a second home ? To my knowledge the labour party aren't running on a no second home policy(There is no hypocrisy in McDonnell second home situation), if anything you should be angry at the daily mail for reporting it.

Is it really just because the MP in the daily mail article is on the red team ?

Will the Labour deal include freedom of movement, and will they tell us whether it will or not before the election?
At the moment I don't know but I doubt there will be much detail before the election. Although its worth saying that at Labour conference the membership pass a motion that Labour should support not only freedom of movement but also expanding it as well. Hopefully it will but who knows at this stage.
 
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Sorry where did I say all landlords are tories(Although they would be stupid not to be) ? I simply pointed out that 1 in 5 MP's are landlords with the tories topping the list at 87(There are more than 87 landlords in Britain). That Theresa May Cabinet which included the current PM earned money from renting property and that Theresa May and her husband benefit from weapons sales.

Your posting of the three links was clearly aimed at pointing out the number of Tory Landlords. and some were in May's cabinet, shock, horror. You could have mentioned Bliar, but chose not to until prompted.

As for May's husband, again tenuous to claim you are not trying to discredit Tories - we were discussing whether Tories profit from the poor, not whether they should or shouldnt be employed by Armaments companies. That's something else, totally different, which you have brought into the disussion for reasons which are not clear but can be guessed.


Yeah I'm not biggest fan of Tony Blair and also did you see the state of McDonnell ''second home''(Its a best a crappy little boat house) but more importantly how does any of this take away from my point about Tory MPs being landlords ?

I see this argument quite lot from people - You say the tory are bad, well here's a list of bad things about the labour party. But we are having a ''discussion'' on how the tories(In this case Tory MP's)benefit from the poor, what the labour party does isn't really an answer to this.

As I said - I posted the link for balance. I know that usually doesn't go down well here on The Caf, but...you know... But did you see its value ?? £ 135k in 2013. And paid for in cash ?? Should the nation really trust as Chancellor someone who is prepared to pay £135k for a ' crappy little boat house ' Just maybe it's not so crappy. And how does a Marxist justify owning a second home while bleating on about the absence of suitable housing for the homeless ?? And accumulate £135k in cash - very proletarian ! Any posters here on The Caf got £135k in cash for a second home ?? Even the Tory supporters ??

As for the he said, she said, etc....I answered a previous common claim about Tories profiteering from the poor with an example of Labour Politicians' hypocricy about the shortage of homes in the UK and the private rented housing sector. Now you do similar about Tory politicians and then moan about such he said, she said arguments. Pot, black, kettle, etc.


The Guardian and The Morning Star have two completely different ideologies. The Guardian is a liberal paper where as The Morning Star is a left wing paper. Also do you not think MP's being landlords is a bigger news story than an MP owning a second home ? And maybe again more importantly you seem fine with Tory MP's being landlords(Or at least at ease enough not to disagree with it), why are you then angry at a Labour MP owning a second home ? To my knowledge the labour party aren't running on a no second home policy(There is no hypocrisy in McDonnell second home situation), if anything you should be angry at the daily mail for reporting it.

What ??? I'll have a pull of whatever it is you're smoking tonight. You're seriously suggesting I should be angry that a newspaper ( OK - it's The Mail in this case so we can all be angry at The Mail but not because it ) exposes the hypocricy of a self conferssed but two home owning Marxist ??

MPs as landlords ?? Why not ?? Especially if Miss Piggy and Lammy think it's OK and it doesn't weigh on their conscience, then presumably it must be OK
 
Your posting of the three links was clearly aimed at pointing out the number of Tory Landlords. and some were in May's cabinet, shock, horror. You could have mentioned Bliar, but chose not to until prompted.

As for May's husband, again tenuous to claim you are not trying to discredit Tories - we were discussing whether Tories profit from the poor, not whether they should or shouldnt be employed by Armaments companies. That's something else, totally different, which you have brought into the disussion for reasons which are not clear but can be guessed.

As I said - I posted the link for balance. I know that usually doesn't go down well here on The Caf, but...you know... But did you see its value ?? £ 135k in 2013. And paid for in cash ?? Should the nation really trust as Chancellor someone who is prepared to pay £135k for a ' crappy little boat house ' Just maybe it's not so crappy. And how does a Marxist justify owning a second home while bleating on about the absence of suitable housing for the homeless ?? And accumulate £135k in cash - very proletarian ! Any posters here on The Caf got £135k in cash for a second home ?? Even the Tory supporters ??

As for the he said, she said, etc....I answered a previous common claim about Tories profiteering from the poor with an example of Labour Politicians' hypocricy about the shortage of homes in the UK and the private rented housing sector. Now you do similar about Tory politicians and then moan about such he said, she said arguments. Pot, black, kettle, etc.

If it was rubbish then that'd be an utterly baffling argument. If he's able to afford it and likes it despite its hypothetical modesty, why does it matter how much he's paid for it? Certainly it's far from being so extravagant luxury property.

McDonnell himself may have a bit of a love-in with Marxism but the party for which he's Chancellor is hardly promoting a Marxist platform and isn't exactly proposing policies that would veer right into Marxism for the most part.

Implying @Sweet Square is somehow defending Tony Blair of all people is...funny to say the least.
 
Surely MPs have to invest their spare cash somewhere. Just like anyone who has enough income to make an investment. If we’re saying they shouldn’t invest in property because of conflict of interest with regulation, they’ll only invest in something else....then doesn’t another conflict of interest situation spring up?
 
Which is fair enough but thats different than thinking Labour have no policy.

Also what option does close the Brexit question ?

Nothing will close it completely but I think there needs to be a harder Brexit deal on the ballot. Something like Johnson's that doesn't break the GFA but satisfies the three general beneficial ideas (as they see it) that Brexit was sold on: sovereignty from the ECJ, immigration controls on EU migrants and the UK becoming an independent trading nation. If remain wins Farage's et al's claim that 'it wasn't a real Brexit' would carry little weight because if they can't sell a hard Brexit to the British public then how could they sell the hardest Brexit? In a soft Brexit vs Remain ballot all you would hear is 'betrayal', 'Brexit has been stolen' 'duped' and so on. If a soft Brexit goes through all you would hear is 'we're still controlled by the EU' 'betrayal', 'Brexit has been stolen' 'duped' and so on. The whole debate would still be completely live and the bitterness amplified. Even having the three options on the ballot could work although I'm opposed to a soft Brexit because it's a completely ridiculous deal to accept.

Back to the original point on the wooliness of Corbyn's 'plan'. The devil is in the detail of the 'labour deal' and if that isn't fleshed out during the election campaign I think it's perfectly acceptable to perceive Labour of being deceptive on the matter.
 
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Smells like communism to me. This year 10%, next year 20%, etc....Do you have a Pension Fund that you've paid into for the past 30 years or so ?? Guess what - it would be worth 10% less overnight and then another 10% next year. Maybe you can afford that and don't mind - the more normal or average person who does and has doesn't want to lose 10% of their Pension Fund for some ideological Socialist Utopia, and that's why Corbyn will never be elected as the UK's PM with policy like that.

Of course, all Tories benefit personally from the poor. It's a well known fact repeated endlessly amongst Labour Party members and supporters, so it must be true.
If you get confused between socialism and communism then that's on you. More equality is not communism. But maybe that's a 'well known fact' repeated constantly by certain media outlets and Tory supporters.

From a worldwide perspective how can 20+ billionaire individuals having over half the Worlds wealth be reflective of a good, working and fair system?

If you accept that there needs to be more equality but refuse to do anything about it. Then it seems you are only paying lip service to the massive increase in poverty and homelessness we are experiencing.
 
A Revenue Tax takes no account of Profit, but of the amount of sales activity in the country.

Precisely because, and as you say, the actual profit often bears no relation to the Taxable Profit.

A typical example is, say, for the UK subsidiary of, say, Amazon to include in its Taxable Profit a fee which it pays to a non-UK Amazon company for the use of the Amazon Name and Trademark. Not saying Amazon actually do this, I don't know, but it's something most multi-nationals do. This is allowed in most Developed Countries, as they all seem to do it to each other, and certainly is part of the UK's tax allowable cost deductions when calculating UK Taxable Profits.

Hence a Revenue Tax - cuts through some, not all, of this sort of tax chicanery.
Wouldnt this encourage higher margin, lower quality products and services? It could also discourage investment in research and development, new infrastructure etc.
 
Your posting of the three links was clearly aimed at pointing out the number of Tory Landlords. and some were in May's cabinet, shock, horror. You could have mentioned Bliar, but chose not to until prompted.

As for May's husband, again tenuous to claim you are not trying to discredit Tories - we were discussing whether Tories profit from the poor, not whether they should or shouldnt be employed by Armaments companies. That's something else, totally different, which you have brought into the disussion for reasons which are not clear but can be guessed.




As I said - I posted the link for balance. I know that usually doesn't go down well here on The Caf, but...you know... But did you see its value ?? £ 135k in 2013. And paid for in cash ?? Should the nation really trust as Chancellor someone who is prepared to pay £135k for a ' crappy little boat house ' Just maybe it's not so crappy. And how does a Marxist justify owning a second home while bleating on about the absence of suitable housing for the homeless ?? And accumulate £135k in cash - very proletarian ! Any posters here on The Caf got £135k in cash for a second home ?? Even the Tory supporters ??

As for the he said, she said, etc....I answered a previous common claim about Tories profiteering from the poor with an example of Labour Politicians' hypocricy about the shortage of homes in the UK and the private rented housing sector. Now you do similar about Tory politicians and then moan about such he said, she said arguments. Pot, black, kettle, etc.




What ??? I'll have a pull of whatever it is you're smoking tonight. You're seriously suggesting I should be angry that a newspaper ( OK - it's The Mail in this case so we can all be angry at The Mail but not because it ) exposes the hypocricy of a self conferssed but two home owning Marxist ??

MPs as landlords ?? Why not ?? Especially if Miss Piggy and Lammy think it's OK and it doesn't weigh on their conscience, then presumably it must be OK
After reading this I'd recommend you take a break from the Daily Mail.

The original post was a broad overview of all MP's. Total numbers (which included all MPs). Which demonstrated that more Tories are benefiting from being landlords.

Yet all you bring up is single examples of 2 Labour MPs. Trying to have a macro debate with micro arguments is classic Daily Mail.
 
If you get confused between socialism and communism then that's on you. More equality is not communism. But maybe that's a 'well known fact' repeated constantly by certain media outlets and Tory supporters.

From a worldwide perspective how can 20+ billionaire individuals having over half the Worlds wealth be reflective of a good, working and fair system?

If you accept that there needs to be more equality but refuse to do anything about it. Then it seems you are only paying lip service to the massive increase in poverty and homelessness we are experiencing.


If you believe that voting for a Labour Government in the UK next month is going to even start changing Global Poverty ( and I agree with you ) quite simply it won't.

If you believe that voting for a Labour Government in the UK next month is going to reduce the number of people in the UK who are officially living in poverty and homeless, then go ahead and do it. In my experience Labour are actually no better than the Tories when it comes to tackling homelessness and poverty, but maybe this one would break the mould as it's way more left-centric than previous Labour Governments would ever dare to admit or claim.

All political opinion and allegiance is just that. Opinion and allegiance. It really doesn't matter what any of us on here come up with, not one of us would ever be persuaded to change our opinion and allegiance based on what someone else has posted.


Wouldnt this encourage higher margin, lower quality products and services? It could also discourage investment in research and development, new infrastructure etc.

It's a whole area of Tax Law called Transfer Pricing. And there's a whole industry of Tax Lawyers and Tax Accountants who specialise in it.

Without it, most multi-nationals would, as you say, peddle inferior products outside their own country of incorporation or simply cease to operate outside those countries. Which would be of no benefit to anyone in the UK if medical drugs made in, say, Germany or Belgium weren't available in the UK because it wasn't profitable for the manufacturer to export them to the UK. So what can and cannot be included in, say, the Tax Deductable costs of, say, Pfizer UK, are its contributions to such things as Pfizer's global R&D spend which might be zero in the UK but without which there would be no Pfizer UK ; Pfizer's global Marketing spend ; establishing and maintaining Pfizer's global Patents and Trademarks ; contribution to the QA systems in the Pfizer factory making the drugs if this is outside the UK; contribution to Pfizer's own Corporate functions in the Corporate HQ in New York. And there are probably quite a few more unique to Pfizer UK.

There's nothing wrong in including some of these costs in the Tax Computation for Pfizer UK - it ensures that cash does, in fact, find its way back to other Pfizer companies outside the UK which, as you say, do the R&D, Marketing, QA, etc, where the costs are actually incurred.

The local Tax Authorities' job is to agree how many of these different types of costs which are not incurred in the UK and how much by value can be claimed by Pfizer UK when calculating Pfizer UK's Taxable Profit. Unfortunately, it seems that there are now too many ' allowable ' non-local costs which are being included in Transfer Pricing these days, around the world, not just the UK, and which allow the Amazons, Starbucks, Googles of the world to take the piss.

Revenue Taxes, such as we have here, are the first step in the fight back against the piss taking.
 
Smells like communism to me. This year 10%, next year 20%, etc....Do you have a Pension Fund that you've paid into for the past 30 years or so ?? Guess what - it would be worth 10% less overnight and then another 10% next year. Maybe you can afford that and don't mind - the more normal or average person who does and has doesn't want to lose 10% of their Pension Fund for some ideological Socialist Utopia, and that's why Corbyn will never be elected as the UK's PM with policy like that.

Of course, all Tories benefit personally from the poor. It's a well known fact repeated endlessly amongst Labour Party members and supporters, so it must be true.

No the pension fund will not be worth 10% less overnight or the following year. You're fundamentally misunderstanding how this works, something which many publically listed companies already do by the way.
 
Bassetlaw was the constituency I grew up in, and where my family still live. Sure there’s a lot of Leave supporters, but those ex-mining areas are very Labour and I’d be very surprised if a right wing party like the BP could win them.

John Mann quitting won’t do Labour any favours because he was very popular, but if Labour lost it that would be a serious shock. They’ve held it since 1929. Also their main competition in the constituency are the Tories (slightly under 5000 behind last election), so if anyone were going to take it away from Labour they’d be the ones most likely to do so.
My former MP had been our MP for 38 years when he lost to the Tories at the 2017 elections.
We had 3 labour councillors before Brexit we now have 1 who hasn’t been up for re-election yet.
 
No the pension fund will not be worth 10% less overnight or the following year. You're fundamentally misunderstanding how this works, something which many publically listed companies already do by the way.


You mean that 90% of a company is worth the same as 100% of the same company ?

Is that Diane Abbot style maths or alchemy !!

And not wishing to argue, but I'm genuinely interested to know which UK listed companies have handed over 10% of their Share Capital to the Government.

We have probably 00s down here which have the Government as a Shareholder ( it's a French thing, State Ownership whether 10% or 100% ) but I wasn't aware that this now happens in the UK.
 
If you believe that voting for a Labour Government in the UK next month is going to reduce the number of people in the UK who are officially living in poverty and homeless, then go ahead and do it. In my experience Labour are actually no better than the Tories when it comes to tackling homelessness and poverty, but maybe this one would break the mould as it's way more left-centric than previous Labour Governments would ever dare to admit or claim.

I know its not the only point you're making, but just to reiterate a point I made earlier, Labour from 2003 to 2010 is the only time in the last 40 years that homelessness fell instead of rising, and the reason it fell was certainly due to planned public policy that Labour come up with. I write this as someone who runs a homeless charity & is well up on the topic.

I will say one thing, I don't think the mere fact of Labour winning will reverse rising homelessness in and of itself. Between 1997 and 2003 homelessness kept on rising, despite a booming economy, increased public spending and a fairly competent Government. It took 6 years for Labour to come to terms with the complexity of homelessness and understand what kind of strategy was needed. I'm still waiting to see this current version of the Labour Party produce such a plan, particularly since the conditions are so much worse now than they were then.
 
I suppose congrats on being sufficiently financially positioned. In 2019, it is a genuine achievement for anyone under 40 years old.

Not sure anyone has the numbers for how many ' rich ' people have left the UK for Tax reasons - if I ever find one, I'll post it.

My generation have been incredibly lucky - not because it was given to us, but sufficient ' things ' aligned to make it possible for those who wanted it enough and worked hard enough to get it.

Unfortunately, my generation also remember the appalling Labour Governments of the 60s and 70s who were financially catastrophic and will never forgive people like Wilson, Callaghan and Foot for helping to make the UK ' The Sick Man of Europe '. I suppose that's why so many older people vote Conservative - not a love of Conservative idealism, but the memories and fear of how a series Left Wing Labour Governments almost ruined the UK feconomy forever.

And Corbyn and McDonell are threatening a return of that chaos just at a time when the UK will need everything to go in its favour post-Brexit. It would be madness.

And the 83%. Peanuts. We also remember a Labour Government which imposed 98% marginal tax rates.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...s-haunted-by-the-sound-of-squeaking-pips.html

The point of me saying all that is, as someone who is incredibly far from being a millionaire, and even further from being a billionaire - yet still pays a higher percentage of tax on my earnings than the average 'rich' person does - I'm still able to have all my needs met, with surplus left over.

Would it be nice to be a millionaire? Yes. But at what cost? What value would it add to my life if i'm earning 500k+ a year, on top of millions of wealth piled up - if I knew that 1 in 3 children are living in poverty in the UK in 2019? and likely to rise even further in the next 3 years if the Tories remain in power. At that point the only thing you're adding to your life is material items, and I personally couldn't do that knowing that there are millions of people suffering in this country, and many more that will continue to suffer under the Tories.

It makes no sense to talk about "what it was like under a Labour government" 50 years ago, when the last 9 years of a Tory Government haven't improved the economy, and got us in the position where "the UK will need everything to go in its favour post-Brexit" Followed by a second Tory Prime Minister who couldn't secure a deal, or get support from her own party. Followed by a third Tory Prime Minster who couldn't secure an even worse deal on time, despite making the promise that we would leave on 31st of October, at all costs.

How many times will the Tories lie, cheat & steal before you understand that they don't care about you or the majority of people within this country?
It's baffling to me that there are people willing to continue to vote for such a consistently incompetent party, when the majority won't even benefit from their policies.
 
My former MP had been our MP for 38 years when he lost to the Tories at the 2017 elections.
We had 3 labour councillors before Brexit we now have 1 who hasn’t been up for re-election yet.

Bassetlaw wasn’t lost to the Tories though in 2017, and Labour still hold the council too. I’m not saying it’s guaranteed they’ll keep control, but I can’t emphasize enough how much this is deep, deep Labour heartland.
 
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/03/obey-brexit-jeremy-corbyn-warns-cabinet-dissenters

“I put it to them quite clearly: I said, our objections are now gone. We are now supporting a general election – and everybody gulped. I didn’t alert anybody in advance – it was my decision. On my own. I made that decision. And they gulped, and said, Yes Jeremy.”

Jeremy Corbyn is a big boy, and wants you to start taking him serious
I thought you'd written that as a joke. Good grief.
 
Maybe PR isn’t such a good idea then. Mind you I and my family have voted green in the past when totally disenfranchised with the main parties, purely in an effort to drive the agenda by weight of numbers, so people voting bxp are essentially doing the same thing

Its difficult to say nowadays whether PR will work. We are now seeing almost regularly, hung parliaments/coalitions/working/supply agreements and the like appearing in what is still a first past the post system. Its leading to the chaos we've seen in Parliament over Brexit. The 'consent of the loser's does not apply now, that has been broken, possibly forever by this Parliaments reaction to the totally surprise outcome from the referendum.
How will legitimate political 'pressure' be applied in future and would a PR system work any better than the current FPP one?

Its uncharted waters to some extent, the difference being the use of social media. The last two Presidential elections in the US have shown, in different ways, the power and influence, when candidates can speak to and organise supporters/and attack rivals, on a level unprecedented previously and without the 'filter' of the press/media, and others too (with undisclosed identities) can have an influence in such matters.

'Its a different ball game ' as they say in the States and as often been said before, what happens/originates in the US, happens over here, eventually!
The 'winner takes all' system may not be everybody's idea of democracy, but it is perhaps dead in the water from now on, and total political paralysis when every pressure group/ pseudo-political party, can mobilise and organise their supporters into effective opposition, without stepping outside their front doors, becomes the norm?

A bit scary really!
 
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/03/obey-brexit-jeremy-corbyn-warns-cabinet-dissenters

“I put it to them quite clearly: I said, our objections are now gone. We are now supporting a general election – and everybody gulped. I didn’t alert anybody in advance – it was my decision. On my own. I made that decision. And they gulped, and said, Yes Jeremy.”

Jeremy Corbyn is a big boy, and wants you to start taking him serious

That quotation is worryingly Trumpian
 
Imo, the NHS became a political issue when the Tories decided to decimate it.
 
Don't use the NHS as a political football, somehow I think they're pleading in vain.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50282333

Definitely pleading in vain.
The NHS is the biggest 'political football' around, its aims and objectives, its running and its funding, 'dwarf' almost everything else for most members of the public. Put quite simply, its too big to be taken out of politics, it affects everybody so it cannot be removed unless or until every political party of whatever description agrees and of course if that happens, there would be no politics!
 
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