UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[MikeUpNorth]

Sorry but if you have a party that cuts your benefits, your carers allowance, and humiliates you to the point of having to prove your disability through a work assesment stacked against you what though process could you possibly go through to support that. Unless of course it hasn't affected you!

People - including disabled people! - base their vote on all sorts of different issues. In the same way that many working class people decided to vote for tories as they deemed brexit as a more important issue than increased welfare spending, it is perfectly possible for a disabled person to make brexit their priority. Or to be an ideological conservative who believes in a small state. Or to strongly disagree with Corbyn’s foreign policy. Or any of the million other complex and individual reasons people vote the way they do.

Characterising disabled people as simple minded folk who are only capable of thinking in terms of “which party is going to give me the biggest benefit payment” is so ridiculously unfair and belittling.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

This post really saddens me. After playing such an active role in working to try to get a Labour victory I can sympathise with the disappointment of the poster and understand the frustration.

It also demonstrates why the electorate will never have any love or affinity with those from momentum who now call the shots.....totally disgusting

It saddens me what this country has resorted to. Its absolutely crushing and the Brexit idiots will lap it up. They feel they are vindicated but have no idea the world of pain that they've inflicted on themselves. I really hope that they suffer greatly from this decision, worse than with Maggie. I hope they lose their jobs, their homes and are forced to live on the streets fighting everyday to survive just like some of those who they have let down with their vote last night.

I was so dismayed that I asked my wife this morning if we should move to LA instead. Trump's America suddenly seems more appealing because at least his term is limited to the next 5 years should he win again. With boundary and constitution changes bulldozed through this country will never ever be able to elect a Labour government again. Last night I feel was the final chance to change things and I now fear what this hard right-wing politics will do for the future of my children.

 

[Fiskey]

No @Fiskey, that’s because as I say, people live much longer for a start, 80% of all the pressures on housing and the NHS are due to this and the UK already having a massive population for it’s size, something which they needed in order to maintain an empire. The other 20% is made up by poor government funding and austerity.

It amazes me that people still think “them imgrants” are the issue when talking about this, it’s so stupid it’s hard to fathom.

Let me try and understand your argument. Is it that having nearly 2 million people come to a country in 20 years has no affect on housing or healthcare provision?

Edit: Actually the figure will be more than 2 million.

 

[Siorac]

You look overseas, to similar countries. It's a favourite example of socialists but you cant use Scandinavia because we dont have a massive oil fund paying for everything, and we did have a costly rebuild after WW2. We also don't have the rabid patriotism that would keep many Americans captive if they ever raised taxes.

Countries with exorbitantly high tax rates always struggle, and will do so even more as it gets easier to move around the world.

Not to piss on your parade but neither do Sweden or Denmark or Iceland. It's really only Norway.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

People - including disabled people! - base their vote on all sorts of different issues. In the same way that many working class people decided to vote for tories as they deemed brexit as a more important issue than increased welfare spending, it is perfectly possible for a disabled person to make brexit their priority. Or to be an ideological conservative who believes in a small state. Or to strongly disagree with Corbyn’s foreign policy. Or any of the million other complex and individual reasons people vote the way they do.

Characterising disabled people as simple minded folk who are only capable of thinking in terms of “which party is going to give me the biggest benefit payment” is so ridiculously unfair and belittling.

Inflicting self-harm is something I will never be able to understand or agree with. That doesn't mean I belittle the person, it just means that I don't have the mental capacity to make the leap to their line of thinking. Be that a hindrance or a blessing I dont know. But it is what it is.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Let me try and understand your argument. Is it that having nearly 2 million people come to a country in 20 years has no affect on housing or healthcare provision?

Nothing like having an ageing population that was at 55 million even in 1965, no.
And nothing like the issues caused by right to buy, government austerity, multiple home owners and capitalism gone mad.
The net effect of 2 m on top of 64m is next to nothing.

 

[Fiskey]

Nothing like having an aging population that was at 55 million even in 1965, no.
And nothing like the issues caused by right to buy, government austerity, multiple home owners and capitalism gone mad.
The net effect of 2 m on top of 64m is next to nothing.

If you really think that, you're being ideological and not looking at the evidence.

It would definitely have been possible to accommodate the level of immigration we had, but it wasn't planned for so houses weren't built, extra school places weren't created and there weren't the healthcare resources allocated. The country also didn't want it, and voted against it at every opportunity, so forcing that level of immigration on them was anti-democratic.

 

[Boycott]

Seen some short questioning with voters in Leigh and other historic labour areas that switched. They say with full conviction it was about brexit. Makes you wonder did the labour party conduct any internal polling and if so why did they agree to this election. Should have just let Johnson keep hitting a brick wall and wait out to see what the tory brexit would be like ahead of 2022.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

@Fiskey keep an open mind and give this a read mate:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/281174/uk-population-by-age/

I’m certain you’ll feel different after that. The UK has some big issues, but immigration of 2m people in 20 years is a teeny tiny issue compared to the other problems we have.

 

[Vault Dweller]

My party lost, my family in England are fecked. I hope the Tories at least loosen their "feck the poor" attitudes now that they have a chance to keep their votes, and my country has a chance to vote for Independence from the union again - which I've always said I could only support if the Tories were in governance.

So, tbh, it's bittersweet but mainly bitter for everyone else but sweet for Scotland. Difficult to digest.

What about yourself?

Yeah I think my close friends and others down in the North East are in trouble too. I agree completely with your points about the Tories and I think I would vote differently if there was another IndyRef too. A lot of what has happened since the last one has made me seriously doubt whether I made the right choice.

I'm still more confused than anything, but quite upset about where I used to live in England. I was born up here and live back up here but spent nearly 15 years growing up in the North East of England, a place I love and have many close friends and I visit as often as I can. Seeing what has happened there affected me a lot this morning and still. Scotland has a chance to do something about it I suppose which is sweet as you say, but I despair at the same time.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

If you really think that, you're being ideological and not looking at the evidence.

It would definitely have been possible to accommodate the level of immigration we had, but it wasn't planned for so houses weren't built, extra school places weren't created and there weren't the healthcare resources allocated. The country also didn't want it, and voted against it at every opportunity, so forcing that level of immigration on them was anti-democratic.

I’m looking at all the evidence, we needed for example the Polish and will continue to need people to pay taxes whilst our population ages at a drastic rate and piles more pressure on housing (staying in them till 90+), NHS (you know surely that old people are the biggest pressure on healthcare by a country mile).

To blame immigration rather than understanding the real issues and not understand that immigration has also been part of the solution is mad.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Momentum are brilliant. "You don't like absolutely everything that I like? I don't care if you've been a member of this party for longer than I have, feck off! Go and find some other party to vote for!"

A few moments later...

"Wtf?! Why has everyone stopped voting for Labour?!"

Ah, if I couldn't laugh then I would cry.

There's a million failings from Labour, it's not just a Momentum thing. But maybe we all need to get back together and have a sing song, yeah?

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

 

[Fiskey]

@Fiskey keep an open mind and give this a read mate:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/281174/uk-population-by-age/

I’m certain you’ll feel different after that. The UK has some big issues, but immigration of 2m people in 20 years is a teeny tiny issue compared to the other problems we have.

The housing crisis and NHS stress are perhaps two of the biggest issues facing the country. These have both been exacerbated by high levels of immigration.

Everything you say is true, but you are talking around the issue and not engaging with the key point if you aren't admitting that immigration is itself is an issue.

 

[DFreshKing]

It saddens me what this country has resorted to. Its absolutely crushing and the Brexit idiots will lap it up. They feel they are vindicated but have no idea the world of pain that they've inflicted on themselves. I really hope that they suffer greatly from this decision, worse than with Maggie. I hope they lose their jobs, their homes and are forced to live on the streets fighting everyday to survive just like some of those who they have let down with their vote last night.

I was so dismayed that I asked my wife this morning if we should move to LA instead. Trump's America suddenly seems more appealing because at least his term is limited to the next 5 years should he win again. With boundary and constitution changes bulldozed through this country will never ever be able to elect a Labour government again. Last night I feel was the final chance to change things and I now fear what this hard right-wing politics will do for the future of my children.

There is certainly one person coming across as an idiot.

 

[Stanley Road]

At least the caf poll kept up its formidable consistency. Why did i not bet my house on tory.

 

[DFreshKing]

I’m looking at all the evidence, we needed for example the Polish and will continue to need people to pay taxes whilst our population ages at a drastic rate and piles more pressure on housing (staying in them till 90+), NHS (you know surely that old people are the biggest pressure on healthcare by a country mile).

To blame immigration rather than understanding the real issues and not understand that immigration has also been part of the solution is mad.

Totally ignoring the impact of millions of people on infrastructure is equally mad.

 

[Josep Dowling]

It saddens me what this country has resorted to. Its absolutely crushing and the Brexit idiots will lap it up. They feel they are vindicated but have no idea the world of pain that they've inflicted on themselves. I really hope that they suffer greatly from this decision, worse than with Maggie. I hope they lose their jobs, their homes and are forced to live on the streets fighting everyday to survive just like some of those who they have let down with their vote last night.

I was so dismayed that I asked my wife this morning if we should move to LA instead. Trump's America suddenly seems more appealing because at least his term is limited to the next 5 years should he win again. With boundary and constitution changes bulldozed through this country will never ever be able to elect a Labour government again. Last night I feel was the final chance to change things and I now fear what this hard right-wing politics will do for the future of my children.

Talk about being dramatic.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The housing crisis and NHS stress are perhaps two of the biggest issues facing the country. These have both been exacerbated by high levels of immigration.

Everything you say is true, but you are talking around the issue and not engaging with the key point if you aren't admitting that immigration is itself is an issue.

Whilst you’re not admitting the immigration is & will continue to be of upmost importance to pay for our old population.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

There's a feeling in Wales, in my opinion, that we've thus far avoided the sort of major immigration waves that have hit other parts of the UK.........thus far, being the key. I worked for a very left-wing organisation here in Cardiff, name withheld, until recently.

My colleagues were 95% I'd say, from a very 'white Welsh middle class' background. Vast majority of the place, we had 1-2 Europeans working there who would actually comment on how white and Welsh the organisation was.

It was quite common to hear these middle-class self-proclaimed 'lefties' make casual comments referring to seeing 'a lot of them nowadays' in Cardiff city centre - referring of course, to what they perceived as 'obvious' immigrants. Obvious meaning, skin colour.

I honestly think a lot of people, just associate the letters 'EU' with unstoppable, increasing immigration and that's what Corbyn and Labour were standing for in some people's eyes.

Yes they do. And when Labour announced that they wanted to increase immigration as one of their flagstone policies I took a deep gulp of air. Shouldn't have really been so shocked at the scale of the defeat.

 

[11101]

Not to piss on your parade but neither do Sweden or Denmark or Iceland. It's really only Norway.

Maybe you should read the whole post before commenting...

Those other 3 countries kept themselves out of the fighting and had virtually no rebuilding to do afterwards.

 

[Fiskey]

Whilst you’re not admitting the immigration is & will continue to be of upmost importance to pay for our old population.

I don't think it will actually. Japan will prove to be an interesting example as they are further ahead on the curve than we are. I think automation will end up taking a lot of jobs, so people will become a liability rather than an asset from a purely economic sense.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Totally ignoring the impact of millions of people on infrastructure is equally mad.

A couple of million new tax payers helps pay for the likes of the NHS, they use it a hell of a lot less than our non tax paying, aged population.

 

[Jippy]

Man City 26 points better off under Tory leadership

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Friday 13th December 2019 – The blue half of Manchester is better under a Conservative government, research from bettingexpert can reveal.

Manchester City have been 26 points better off with the Tories in power with an average finishing position of 6th, compared with 12thwhen playing during the leadership of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.

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bettingexpert’s Premier League Top Six Performance By Government

(Statistics taken from the start of the Premier League, 1992/93)
​

Tottenham are the only other side in the top six who’ve had more Premier League success when the country’s ruled by the right, racking up 75 points on average under John Major, David Cameron and Theresa May, compared to the 51 points picked up under Labour.

bettingexpert’s study reveals Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Manchester United have all been better off under a Labour government.
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[Alabaster Codify7]

Yes they do. And when Labour announced that they wanted to increase immigration as one of their flagstone policies I took a deep gulp of air. Shouldn't have really been so shocked at the scale of the defeat.

The more I think about it, the entire thing was a lost cause. I had a very thin hope but it was unwarranted now the smoke has cleared. It was actually a very poor plan by Labour in hindsight. I think they put WAY too much faith in 'the young vote' and the left-wing new generation of feminists, climate protesters and the other new wave of enlightened folks. That isn't said in a sarcastic manner, either. I think they felt they had that section of society sewn up and were probably correct - they just over-estimated how many of them, there were.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Maybe you should read the whole post before commenting...

Those other 3 countries kept themselves out of the fighting and had virtually no rebuilding to do afterwards.

Hmmm @11101, explain Finland to me if you want to cherry pick.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

I don't think it will actually. Japan will prove to be an interesting example as they are further ahead on the curve than we are. I think automation will end up taking a lot of jobs, so people will become a liability rather than an asset from a purely economic sense.

Yeah. I start work in automation next year. First thing I might do is build something to automate my posts on here.

 

[Fiskey]

A couple of million new tax payers helps pay for the likes of the NHS, they use it a hell of a lot less than our non tax paying, aged population.

Yes but you can't build infrastructure over night, it's a minimum 5-10 year project. Immigration levels were increased by Blair's government overnight.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Seen some short questioning with voters in Leigh and other historic labour areas that switched. They say with full conviction it was about brexit. Makes you wonder did the labour party conduct any internal polling and if so why did they agree to this election. Should have just let Johnson keep hitting a brick wall and wait out to see what the tory brexit would be like ahead of 2022.

You wonder what will happen if the brexiteers eventually decide they don't actually like brexit?

 

[Ultimate Grib]

Talk about being dramatic.

Public services are already crumbling and its the poor who rely most on them. There is no economic benefit to Brexit so things aren't about to improve. When push comes to shove at the end of next year and we're facing no deal, BoJo & Co will have "the mandate" to take this country out without one. The poor working class gave it to them. And they will suffer for it will those who funded Brexit in the first place will make billions. I really hope that happens not for some self sadistic vindication purposes, but its because that's what they deserve.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

The more I think about it, the entire thing was a lost cause. I had a very thin hope but it was unwarranted now the smoke has cleared. It was actually a very poor plan by Labour in hindsight. I think they put WAY too much faith in 'the young vote' and the left-wing new generation of feminists, climate protesters and the other new wave of enlightened folks. That isn't said in a sarcastic manner, either. I think they felt they had that section of society sewn up and were probably correct - they just over-estimated how many of them, there were.

Not saying they were all young but there was still £15m+ registered people who didn't vote. Higher than the number of people who voted for the Tories.

 

[RedChip]

I think that it is probably true that traditional working class voters are no longer representative of Labour voters; rather, those are now metropolitan progressives. If Johnson manages not to feck up the economy majorly in 'getting Brexit done', I expect he will win again in 2024.

Anyhow, that's my gloomy prediction to make this day even gloomier.

 

[DFreshKing]

A couple of million new tax payers helps pay for the likes of the NHS, they use it a hell of a lot less than our non tax paying, aged population.

Yes of course but that aging population has paid into it for decades have they not?

Migration is very much welcomed but it should be for jobs required by the country and numbers that can be maintained while providing all the social systems and infrastructure.

There are two sides but for ideological reasons most people seem to only grasp once side. I find it baffling.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Yes but you can't build infrastructure over night, it's a minimum 5-10 year project. Immigration levels were increased by Blair's government overnight.

Hey, I’m not arguing with that, but if you think 10 years of Tory austerity has helped.. well...

And blaiming Blair? Wasn’t it just a 3-5 years boom of Poles coming in after they entered into the EU?

Poles work too man, pay taxes, use little NHS and pay for our old.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Not saying they were all young but there was still £15m+ registered people who didn't vote. Higher than the number of people who voted for the Tories.

Protest Voters, some of them, no doubt - I hate them all so I'm not voting at all.

Some just deluded living in a bubble, in which politics does not effect them personally so 'crack on'

 

[Fortitude]

Its why we made the move - like you, we had an elderly relative to consider, but she passed away in 2018 so we had no responsibilities to fulfil in the UK after she'd gone.

My mother's in her 60's, but practically isolationist, which is problematic as me living in another country, anything happening to her would be on my shoulders. Would've left the UK in 2017 if things worked out differently.

It's a recurring strain at the moment, however, with these election results generating more relationship tensions between me and the OH.

Well... as far as I'm aware, roughly 60-70% of Labour voters are Remainers, and roughly 60-70% of Tory voters are Leavers - it's hard to find exact numbers as the political landscape seems to be very volatile in the UK. So, for the sake of simplicity, let's just count all Labour votes as Remain and all Tory votes as Leave. (This is not precise because there are more Tory voters which means that their 30% Remain is a higher number than Labour's 30% Leave. But it will do for now). Lib Dem is Remain, SNP is Remain. Some Leavers might have voted for either of these parties, especially the SNP but they are both absolutely, unequivocally Remain so we'll count them as such.

Now, Labour plus Lib Dem plus SNP equals more votes than Tory. This is simplistic as feck but basically, it suggests that a second referendum is too close to call and would be around 50-50.

Really feels as though this election was won on 'getting Brexit done' over the hatred of Corbyn or what have you - just makes you wonder if the campainging for a second referendum would have seen anything other than a more entrenched leave result. The number you put up suggest a thereabouts parity, but the tension is palpable among those who want 'it done' and they are huge throngs of the public as opposed to what feels like the loud, but lesser voice, of the remainers.

The major tabloids have swayed so many poor people to vote for a party literally against their interests almost solely on Brexit/immigration... it is galling.

Well yeah, there's no stopping it now. If you leave the country, for want of a better phrase, then that would be you accepting it too.

That's one way of looking at it, but, at the moment, my househould is effectively deadlocked and I'm not sure what the resolution is going to end up being. We're going to hers - abroad - for Christmas through into the '20's, which is sure to have an added spice to it post-election.

Aye I feel the same way. Actually feel sick this morning. Tory got 63.0% in my area. It's Brexit all over again for me, I don't feel any connection with people who vote Tory, none.

Yes, it feels like a helpless pit of despair that you oughtn't bury your head in the sand from. Keeping abreast of it all is like death by a thousand cuts, however.

 

[Josep Dowling]

Thing is, I think this stereotype is shifting. There aren't that many upper class tories left, they died out, so the contempt for the poor largely comes from the metropolitan momentum guys.

In my opinion there is a large majority of people that want Brexit done with in one form or another. Only the Tories gave a stance whereby the Brexit situation gets dealt with quickly and we can move on. The other parties wanted another referendum or try to cancel it altogether, which would no doubt cause leavers to argue against that scenario.

That’s why I think the Tories won this time round.

And before you ask I didn’t vote this time, not a single party was electable for me.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Yes of course but that aging population has paid into it for decades have they not?

Some, but we used to have a hell of a lot of one job families back in the day.

And I’m not ignoring that migration requires extra spending, but I am arguing that migration is absolutely essential for a country like the UK and that migration since 00 has massively helped rather than hindered the likes of the NhS.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

So... where are all these Tory voters??

Everywhere I look all I see is Labour - both in real life and online.

I think it's a fix / scripted. Have done for years - tin foil brigade on this one.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

Anyone heard from Len McCluskey?