UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[711]

The Isle of Man alone is swarming with tax dodgers as it is. Do I have any statistics on that?

'ooh no it isn't, you don't have any statistics'. But we all know it is, don't we?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The Isle of Man alone is swarming with tax dodgers as it is. Do I have any statistics on that?

'ooh no it isn't, you don't have any statistics'. But we all know it is, don't we?

My mum and dad's mates are there on a tax dodge, I can offer that. Nigel Mansel too, he also has a place on Jersey. F1 drivers hate paying tax.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

If the government wanted it could close loopholes overnight.

There was a Panorama programme not long ago after Paradise Papers came out showing how some actors paid by BBC were avoiding tax.

Its disgusting to the majority of us who are on PAYE and have tax deducted before it hits our account how the rich can just get away with it.

 

[sun_tzu]

If the government wanted it could close loopholes overnight.
.

Already closed them with ir35 reforms I think

 

[T00lsh3d]

So there should be no attempts to reduce income inequality, or address the fact that the ultra-rich hoarding their wealth and creating monopolies at the expense of the general population just isn't sustainable in the long-term? We shouldn't try to fix something that so patently obviously needs fixing?

It obviously does. But Corbyn’s policies, abolish private schools, 10% equity share , I believe are too extreme.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

If the government wanted it could close loopholes overnight.

There was a Panorama programme not long ago after Paradise Papers came out showing how some actors paid by BBC were avoiding tax.

Its disgusting to the majority of us who are on PAYE and have tax deducted before it hits our account how the rich can just get away with it.

It is.
It's disgusting that someone gets paid for Mrs. Brown's Boys at all.

 

[Grinner]

If the government wanted it could close loopholes overnight.

There was a Panorama programme not long ago after Paradise Papers came out showing how some actors paid by BBC were avoiding tax.

Its disgusting to the majority of us who are on PAYE and have tax deducted before it hits our account how the rich can just get away with it.

They should be paying me to watch that pile of gash.

 

[SteveJ]

That Mrs Brown looks like a bloke.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

Already closed them with ir35 reforms I think

IR35 wouldn’t even begin to cover it. The people in the scheme wouldn’t be named but for the leak of the Paradise Papers. HMRC wouldn’t even know the scheme existed let alone try to enforce something on it.

This is just one of many loopholes which the government allows. IR35 itself is easily loopholed by having no mention of the contractors name in the contract.

 

[sun_tzu]

IR35 wouldn’t even begin to cover it. The people in the scheme wouldn’t be named but for the leak of the Paradise Papers. HMRC wouldn’t even know the scheme existed let alone try to enforce something on it.

This is just one of many loopholes which the government allows. IR35 itself is easily loopholed by having no mention of the contractors name in the contract.

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2019/10/23/hinkley-first-site-hit-by-freelance-tax-changes/
The new changes would make the BBC reaponcible for determining tax status ... Suspect most big companies and certainly public will take the Balfour route of making people prove their tax status or going PAYE

Believe it goes into private sector next year as well as it's currently rolled out for public contracts

 

[Ultimate Grib]

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2019/10/23/hinkley-first-site-hit-by-freelance-tax-changes/
The new changes would make the BBC reaponcible for determining tax status ... Suspect most big companies and certainly public will take the Balfour route of making people prove their tax status or going PAYE

Believe it goes into private sector next year as well as it's currently rolled out for public contracts

You’re confused as always. IR35 relates to contractors working via an umbrella or PSC. Those people are just your average builder earning average salaries. Not people with millions dodging tax offshore.

The scheme I posted above is not even close to something like it and wouldn’t even be covered by any of IR35 rules because none of the actors have any links to the production company. The money goes dark once it leaves UK and there’s no laws that cover against that. The reason why it reappearing was discovered was leaked secret documents.

 

[SteveJ]

Matthew Parris, the Times columnist and former Conservative MP who's quitting the party, just doesn't get it:

"I feel every sympathy towards those female Tory MPs who are quitting in despair at where the party is going but less sympathy for complaints about online harassment. If you can’t take verbal abuse you shouldn’t be in representative politics."

 

[Rado_N]

IR35 wouldn’t even begin to cover it. The people in the scheme wouldn’t be named but for the leak of the Paradise Papers. HMRC wouldn’t even know the scheme existed let alone try to enforce something on it.

This is just one of many loopholes which the government allows. IR35 itself is easily loopholed by having no mention of the contractors name in the contract.

That doesn’t avoid IR35.

 

[Rado_N]

You’re confused as always. IR35 relates to contractors working via an umbrella or PSC. Those people are just your average builder earning average salaries. Not people with millions dodging tax offshore.

The scheme I posted above is not even close to something like it and wouldn’t even be covered by any of IR35 rules because none of the actors have any links to the production company. The money goes dark once it leaves UK and there’s no laws that cover against that. The reason why it reappearing was discovered was leaked secret documents.

https://www.tax.org.uk/media-centre/blog/technical/loan-charge-explainer

 

[Ultimate Grib]

That doesn’t avoid IR35.

https://www.tax.org.uk/media-centre/blog/technical/loan-charge-explainer

It does because you can pay yourself a salary and draw dividends from your company and act as a legal business and be deemed outside IR35

If you were named in the contract directly then this would be cause for HMRC to deem you inside IR35.

The one I posted is just one scheme, there are many more others operational. Some of which we don’t even know exist.

We shouldn’t get sidetracked with a moot point on one particular scheme when the main argument is stopping ALL tax avoidance.

 

[Rado_N]

It does because you can pay yourself a salary and draw dividends from your company and act as a legal business and be deemed outside IR35

If you were named in the contract directly then this would be cause for HMRC to deem you inside IR35.

The one I posted is just one scheme, there are many more others operational. Some of which we don’t even know exist.

Yea, again, that doesn’t avoid intermediaries legislation. It’s an area HMRC are cracking down on pretty heavily and it’s only going to get harder come next April.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

Yea, again, that doesn’t avoid intermediaries legislation. It’s an area HMRC are cracking down on pretty heavily and it’s only going to get harder come next April.

I don’t know what is coming in April I’ve not had a reason to keep up to date with it but currently there’s nothing that automatically decides if IR35 applies, and it’s all prompted if HMRC decides to investigate in a PSC. At that point there are certain checks and balances applied and if a limited company fulfils it’s duties as required by law it cannot be deemed falling under IR35.

 

[Rado_N]

I don’t know what is coming in April I’ve not had a reason to keep up to date with it but currently there’s nothing that automatically decides if IR35 applies, and it’s all prompted if HMRC decides to investigate in a PSC. At that point there are certain checks and balances applied and if a limited company fulfils it’s duties as required by law it cannot be deemed falling under IR35.

It’s quite clear you actually don’t really know what you’re talking about here.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

It’s quite clear you actually don’t really know what you’re talking about here.

If you say so yourself

 

[Rado_N]

If you say so yourself

Your comments speak for themselves, but excellent work cementing my view with use of that emoji.

 

[Full bodied red]

Yes some. Not all, and certainly not enough to command propaganda that suggests they’ll all uproot their lives because Corbyn will tax 83% of their wealth every year.

Again - can you provide evidence of this supposed mass emigration by the rich?

Thought I had - in a round about, reverse way.

On the other hand, if you, personally, had the choice of paying 83% tax in the UK or 20% in Switzerland or 0% in Monaco, what would you do.

And if if you're going to say you'd be happy to stay in the UK and pay 83%, then you're either not being truthful or you're just plain dumb.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

Your comments speak for themselves, but excellent work cementing my view with use of that emoji.

I aim to please... My comments speak to what’s actually going on right now. It’s fully open to loophole and abuse. I did spend 10 minutes to read about what is happening in April and I can see that HMRC has moved the responsibilities of determination whether contractors fall within IR35 or outside it to the employer which is the right thing to do because it’s going to stop some of the abuse but a new loophole will simply pop up and the government will spend years playing catch up, be sure of it.

 

[Fully Fledged]

The logical conclusion of this argument would be that you should only ever vote tactically to keep out the Tories, in all circumstances, irrespective of whether you agree with the policies of the party you're voting for or not. I don't agree with that. My view is that tactical voting has its place (which I did last time), voting for a party you like has its place, voting for a leader you like has its place and sometimes simply drawing a nob on the ballot sheet has its place. A general election has many competing demands, different causes and varying consequences, and you only get one vote to cover them all. In a way, what I'm still figuring out is whether this election is one to vote tactially in, or whether to vote for a party I can actually back.

I'd do this every day of the week and twice on Thursdays. A normal Tory government is bad for the working man but this particular Tory government is more than bad it's dangerous.

 

[villain]

Thought I had - in a round about, reverse way.

On the other hand, if you, personally, had the choice of paying 83% tax in the UK or 20% in Switzerland or 0% in Monaco, what would you do.

And if if you're going to say you'd be happy to stay in the UK and pay 83%, then you're either not being truthful or you're just plain dumb.

I currently pay the higher rate tax band right now, and have the option of emigrating to the US through my work and paying a lower rate if I wish to do so.

I’m very happy to remain in the UK. I earn enough to buy a house, pay my bills and pay for my lifestyle, and put money aside for savings. Any extra money I would save through a lower tax at this point would add very little value to my life, and I’d spend it on more material things probably.

But anecdotal stories don’t mean much, nor does listing a handful of random high profile celebs - if the insinuation is that millionaires & billionaires emigrate out of a country due to high taxes - it should be pretty straight forward to find that data, no?
Otherwise what’s the point in making the statement at all if you can’t find it to be true?

Also the 83% was a nod at someone who insinuated a ridiculous hypothetical where doctors were paying that much in tax. Nobody in this country is losing 83% of their income through tax, it’s absurd.

 

[Sweet Square]

God it's just going to be the same result as last time, isn't it.

 

[Fully Fledged]

God it's just going to be the same result as last time, isn't it.

It's only been 2 years and nothing has really changed in those 2 years.

 

[Rolandofgilead]

It's only been 2 years and nothing has really changed in those 2 years.

it will be more interesting seeing the swings in the polls in the coming weeks, Especially after the Manifestos are published.

 

[Fully Fledged]

it will be more interesting seeing the swings in the polls in the coming weeks, Especially after the Manifestos are published.

It will. Who knows were we will end up but it looks like a hung parliament again.

 

[Rolandofgilead]

It will. Who knows were we will end up but it looks like a hung parliament again.

I'm tentatively predicting a tory/Brexit party coalition. The only thing i am sure of is that The Tories and their media friends will hammer Corbyn over the next couple of months. They will throw everything at him and they won't let a little thing like truth get in the way.

Having said that, he does tend to bring it on himself. I actually agree with an awful lot of what he stands for, but he has this really annoying tendency to put himself in a position that leaves him open for criticism and abuse and the people eat it up.

 

[711]

Can one be for proportional representation but against hung parliaments? Quite a few seem to manage it somehow.

 

[berbatrick]

Some election data I hadn't seen before:
2017 vote by deprivation of constituency - strong correlation of deprivation and Labour

Spoiler

EU referendum vote by deprivation: several different patterns - Leave is a cross-class phenomenon with strong middle/upper-middle class support and opposition from the very rich.

Spoiler

 

[NWRed]

 

[Fluctuation0161]

If this was Corbyn we'd be forever hearing cries of Corbynski the Russian spy from the media. I wonder how much traction this will get (I can guess very little).

 

[Raulduke]

Farage telling Marr that he's not running himself.

 

[sun_tzu]

Is wrong daily wrong agin... Or might labour campaign for leave in a second referendum



Another show if hands to be overruled I expect

 

[NWRed]

If this was Corbyn we'd be forever hearing cries of Corbynski the Russian spy from the media. I wonder how much traction this will get (I can guess very little).

On that note, how is this not front page news in every paper?

 

[esmufc07]

Is wrong daily wrong agin... Or might labour campaign for leave in a second referendum



Another show if hands to be overruled I expect

To determine the final position ffs, it’s been 3 and a half years since the first referendum. Useless sacks of shits.

 

[Smores]

On that note, how is this not front page news in every paper?

You'll be lucky if the BBC report it above some little sub-story. Still waiting for QT to correct their statement that Vote Leave was cleared of all wrong doing.

 

[TheGame]

 

[Fluctuation0161]

On that note, how is this not front page news in every paper?

It really should be. We need to be asking serious and concerted questions about the lack of impartiality from our media. And the influence they hold over public opinion.